City and Financial Doping | Charged by PL with numerous FFP breaches

amolbhatia50k

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City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.
Top post. Well done.
 

caid

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It doesn't do enough. And that wasn't the intent anyways, it was created to prevent clubs from going under. But there are much better ways to limit the impact of financial advantages from "earned" or "un-earned" money.
I think the sustainability side of the rules are reasonable. I think Leeds and Portsmouth and other clubs kind of showed a need for some oversight and limits. They're a bit inadequate and i don think they've found a good way to 'punish' teams in danger. Point deductions and fines exacerbate the problem.
At the top end maybe they should do away with rules and have a free for all? I dont think they've done a great job of actually selling limiting clubs at that end, they've always disguised it behind sustainability rather than addressing the argument. At the end of the day i think clubs that have to live within their means because they're not being bankrolled cant compete with that investment and the scale has grown far, far too large to be bridged by good coaching, management or luck. I'm happy to limit the top clubs, I think they should and the current rules dont go anywhere near far enough but as a first step, its not bad. It'll be hard to sell going further if the rule only applies to some teams though.
 

adexkola

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I think the sustainability side of the rules are reasonable. I think Leeds and Portsmouth and other clubs kind of showed a need for some oversight and limits. They're a bit inadequate and i don think they've found a good way to 'punish' teams in danger. Point deductions and fines exacerbate the problem.
At the top end maybe they should do away with rules and have a free for all? I dont think they've done a great job of actually selling limiting clubs at that end, they've always disguised it behind sustainability rather than addressing the argument. At the end of the day i think clubs that have to live within their means because they're not being bankrolled cant compete with that investment and the scale has grown far, far too large to be bridged by good coaching, management or luck. I'm happy to limit the top clubs, I think they should and the current rules dont go anywhere near far enough but as a first step, its not bad. It'll be hard to sell going further if the rule only applies to some teams though.
I don't think external funds should be banned. That's my biggest gripe.

Want to protect the clubs? Mandate all expenses that cannot be covered by organic revenue be made available in an escrow account. This automatically guarantees the club is not on the hook in case an investor loses interests, all committed expenses can be accounted for, and the club can work on a transition plan immune from the pressure of paying debt payable immediately.

Want to limit spending? Introduce soft salary caps that punitively tax and redistribute excess spending.

Companies don't live within their means; they take risks and acquire debt and issue equity and accept donations to grow... clubs shouldn't be barred from that. If you want to protect clubs, there are better ways to do so. Saying "work your way to the top"... it's like right wingers and their bootstrap logic
 

NicolaSacco

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limit the impact of financial advantages. Or just create a more competitive environment in general really
As in, clubs like Barca etc will not feel like they have to match the wages PSG et al pay? I think that would logically have a deflationary effect.
 

NicolaSacco

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I'm not sure the poster is interested in this line of debate, it keeps being pointed out to them and they keep ignoring it. Just accept all United fans are angry we're not top dogs and we want a monopoly league with no competition.
I can imagine it’s the easy option for you to take that position. Doesn’t make it accurate though. It’s easy just to discount anyone with a different point view to yours..
 

adexkola

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As in, clubs like Barca etc will not feel like they have to match the wages PSG et al pay? I think that would logically have a deflationary effect.
This is not a bad thing.

We have another thread where people who have supported clubs for decades are being priced out of going to games.

We have clubs that are struggling to break even in an attempt to keep up.

There is nothing wrong with football saying, "hey, enough is enough. Let's cap spending at a level across the board, regardless of revenue, that is sustainable for players, fans, clubs, the game at large".
 

NicolaSacco

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You're amazing at shifting goalpoasts - organic growth isn't synonymous with catching up to Utd's finances. Not catching up with Utd's finances, but growing in an organic way, still means you can absolutely be challenging.
If you think I’ve ‘shifted the goalposts’ then that’s genuinely a reflection on your comprehension. I know my own view and I’ve thought the same consistently. Sorry it doesn’t make sense to you.

Also, sorry to the peeps who wrote War and Peace earlier, I’ll have a look tomorrow when I’m not arguing with an 8 year old about basic hygiene.
 

NicolaSacco

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This is not a bad thing.

We have another thread where people who have supported clubs for decades are being priced out of going to games.

We have clubs that are struggling to break even in an attempt to keep up.

There is nothing wrong with football saying, "hey, enough is enough. Let's cap spending at a level across the board, regardless of revenue, that is sustainable for players, fans, clubs, the game at large".
I agree it’s not a bad thing, they are inordinately expensive. My son has told me (planning for a very late summer holiday in early September) that he wants tickets to see ahem, a certain club, more than he wants to fly somewhere on holiday. Wahey I thought, I’ve saved some money there. Turns out I have not saved any money whatsoever. And that’s before I price in the cost of trains.
 

tomaldinho1

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I can imagine it’s the easy option for you to take that position. Doesn’t make it accurate though. It’s easy just to discount anyone with a different point view to yours..
Can you just respond to the questions then? It seems you’ve ignored a very selective list.
 

adexkola

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Sorry @Fortitude but you can't possibly include Chelsea. They were the original financial dopers. Roman put billions into Chelsea with no expectation, or requirement of repayment. He ended up simply writing off the loan.

They are just as disgusting as City, imho.
There were no rules against that at the time. Are we mad at these clubs for violating the rules, or being injected with money despite the rules, or yes?
 

NicolaSacco

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Can you just respond to the questions then? It seems you’ve ignored a very selective list.
Unless I'm missing something I literally have responded. Twice. But that makes me think it’s a different question.

I’ve nothing to hide here. If I have an assumption that turns out to be critical (and wrong) I’ll say it. Only the weak can’t be seen to change their minds. But I won’t just pretend to agree.
 

terraloo

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Sorry @Fortitude but you can't possibly include Chelsea. They were the original financial dopers. Roman put billions into Chelsea with no expectation, or requirement of repayment. He ended up simply writing off the loan.

They are just as disgusting as City, imho.
Sorry this is just nonsense

Since day 1 individuals have injected money into football . The Moore’s at both Liverpool and Everton or what about John Hall at Newcastle or Jack Walker at Blackburn for instance
The irony when it comes to RA he didn’t just write off loans he very much lent money with provision for such loans to be repaid The sale proceeds , even though the sale was forced , were greater than the cash he injected some would say from a business sense he made a great investment
There had been rumours for quite a while prior to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine the RA had wanted to sell whether there was any truth in that we don’t know but we do know what cash was generated from the eventual sale.
RA eventually has written off the loan as you call it because it couldn’t be repaid but if you just look at the numbers there would have been quite a reasonable return had he been able to get the money back.
As to would he have sold that we will never know.
As for financial doping what does that really mean ? If it means spending money before it’s earned would you include shares when a club first became limited . For me it’s simply a term invented by Arsene Wenger and possibly David Dien because Chelsea dared to challenge the status quo.
 
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Garnacho's Shoelaces

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A lot. Klopp would have won the CL faster but would probably be less consistent in the league.

Klopp has also been the second best manager in the world for quite some time, so obviously he would do great. But it's not like they'll be getting Klopp after Pep anyway.
1 league title in 9 years. Nearly €1bn spent. Couple cups along the way but the overrating of Klopp is ridiculous.
 

Chesterlestreet

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City are purchased by Abu Dhabi in September 2008. Manchester City placed 9th the season prior. Abu Dhabi get to work buying players who wouldn't otherwise even look in City's direction. 9th place in 2007/'08 becomes 8th place in 2008/'09; the initial steps of the process take a while to bed in, as the old is replaced with the new. City's first big leap takes place the next season with 8th place bested by three positions. They finish the 2009/'10 season in 5th position. We're now in 2010/'11 and City have sacked Hughes and got their first big name coach in Roberto Mancini. They finish 3rd that season and are now a Champions League club. They've been a perennial fixture in the CL places ever since.

There are no cyclic ups or downs, no consequence for poor purchases where normal clubs are lumped with players whose value plummets who they then cannot get off their books because they cannot afford to pay up their contracts willy-nilly and no other club will take them on without subsidy. There is no fear or regard for any of the recognised norms clubs who are not state-owned are hamstrung by. City are a guaranteed lock for a CL place, thus taking it away from any legitimate contender who is then vying with the remainder for 'a go'. The established Old Order are hurt by this, but the remainder are absolutely crushed by it because they have to have more luck than ever before, or take on more financial risk than ever before to try and break this new status quo.

Meanwhile, of the Old Order, not one of them has been a lock in the CL positions as a perennial fixture since 2009/'10

Manchester United have missed out on the CL 5, going on 6 times (once this season concludes).

Liverpool have missed out on the CL 6 times.

Chelsea have missed out on the CL 4, going on 5 times (once this season concludes).

Arsenal have missed out on the CL 6 times.

This is the Old Order, look how many times these so-called behemoths have failed to qualify for the Champions League since City became an indubitable fixture in the competition. Whether you wish to count Chelsea or not, the point remains - Chelsea are more an example of a club with no hope forcing themselves into the conversation, but not overstepping the mark to the point they have broken football.

Now, as stated by numerous people and their painstaking efforts to make clear how damaging what City are doing is, it's not the clubs above who are the most put out by City, it's the teams below them who, without City's permanency would have had a chance to make their play for the top table. Spurs are going to have been the biggest fall guys, but now it's also the likes of Villa as they try and push through the glass ceiling to compete directly with the teams above (and not City).

There is no time in English football history where Old Orders (they used to be dynamic: Wolves, for example, used to be a big dog up to the conclusion of the 1950's) as there have been - or supposedly established - where those teams remained, perennially, at the helm. In fact, most are defined by golden periods followed by fallow times where they cannot compete for the league nor CL (or previously, the European Cup).

Great periods for these sides are attributed to great men doing unbelievably shrewd work within a financial remit that whilst at the higher end, was not obliterating those around them - the clubs ebbed and flowed with the passage of these managers. City are a faceless state, as @Regulus Arcturus Black stated, there is no way for them to fail because they will always have the best in class, will always replace the best with the best and there will never be a lull due to financial instability or uncertainty. In other words, completely and utterly artificial conditions, especially when contrasted with what history has told us about every one of the Old Order, who all, to a club, could/did/have slumped and have had to re-establish themselves once more years down the line.

It's clear that what some see as "Manchester United" is actually an infernal loathing of Alex Ferguson and the brilliance he ushered into the club, which immediately lost its way without him at the top. In the following 10 years, the cluelessness, and more importantly, the consequences of that cluelessness, have not only seen Manchester United fall back into the pack, but for most of the time, be behind them by some distance. The exact same thing befell Liverpool when Dalglish handed over to Souness and sent them flailing, not only off the top spot, but to be out of the running for the title for years. In very short order, both clubs went from halcyon periods with great players to an exodus and squads and managers who hadn't a prayer. This is how the Old Order works and what their pitfalls are. One or two bad managerial hires and they can fall like a house of cards because consequence for poor decisions then comes back to haunt them as a debt that needs paying in full. These old clubs don't just get to wipe the slate clean each season and go again with a brand new set of players if the bad buys don't work out. They are lumped with them and the general bar for the side will steadily diminish. Arsenal experienced exactly the same thing once Wenger stopped shitting gold. The stadium didn't help, but it wasn't their downfall, but it highlights another point and consequence: the either, or. By pouring money into the new stadium, they were going to be hamstrung for years. A conscious decision made to better their stadium meant less money could be pumped into the team, and anyone coming to manage them had to accept that. At City? Nope, we'll redevelop a portion of the city - yes, the literal city - whilst still hiring best in class across all facets on off and the pitch with no fallout whatsoever. Hmm... clearly the same playing field as what everyone else is uuming and ahhing from.

The worst thing of all is City didn't have to cheat as a state is going to be Borg-like in its assimilation by its very nature. It cannot be anything else, which is why it has no place in football, but that's besides the point as this is about cheating to achieve ends as hurriedly and as artificially as one can imagine.

As much as the Old Order could be despised by those who were not part of it, they were not infinite or unmovable. Every single one of them had sizeable lulls multiple times in their histories and provided opportunities for others to take their slice of the pie should they be so fortunate to go upwind at the time of a boon for the game. We'll never know what would have happened without City in the picture, but history tells us, quite clearly, that even the biggest of English clubs has never been too big to not fail, until now. With Ferguson's retirement, there was no guarantee status quo would have remained, but unlike in the past, where new players could gobble up space, things quickly became established in this new, most broken order where the winningest team's biggest concerns are in how to hide their wrongdoing. The footballing side of things, a total formality due to them having no consequences for anything that goes wrong.
Excellent post, mate.
 

Alex99

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Funny how the "challenge the status quo" line only ever seems to come from the supporters of clubs with dodgy, state-backed owners.
 

C'est Moi Cantona

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Sorry this is just nonsense

Since day 1 individuals have injected money into football . The Moore’s at both Liverpool and Everton or what about John Hall at Newcastle or Jack Walker at Blackburn for instance
The irony when it comes to RA he didn’t just write off loans he very much lent money with provision for such loans to be repaid The sale proceeds , even though the sale was forced , were greater than the cash he injected some would say from a business sense he made a great investment
There had been rumours for quite a while prior to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine the RA had wanted to sell whether there was any truth in that we don’t know but we do know what cash was generated from the eventual sale.
RA eventually has written off the loan as you call it because it couldn’t be repaid but if you just look at the numbers there would have been quite a reasonable return had he been able to get the money back.
As to would he have sold that we will never know.
As for financial doping what does that really mean ? If it means spending money before it’s earned would you include shares when a club first became limited . For me it’s simply a term invented by Arsene Wenger and possibly David Dien because Chelsea dared to challenge the status quo.
I suppose it depends if you're happy with having your club taken to the heights it was with this sort of owner, and this sort of money doing it, Chelsea didn't break any rules doing it in the early days at least, so if you are then fair enough. Personally I hate Chelsea with a passion, not really for the early RA days, but the fact they were afforded the sort of takeover they were when the sh*t finally hit the fan for having an owner like Abramovich, this should have been allowed to run its natural course, but you somehow you get a bespoke takeover, with a £1.5 billion pledge built in, almost as if having a Oligarch lavishing you for 20 years wasn't quite enough.

City are far worse, both Chelsea have hardly been healthy for the game.
 

tomaldinho1

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Unless I'm missing something I literally have responded. Twice. But that makes me think it’s a different question.

I’ve nothing to hide here. If I have an assumption that turns out to be critical (and wrong) I’ll say it. Only the weak can’t be seen to change their minds. But I won’t just pretend to agree.
I don't really get what you're trying to say other than a kind of 'old man yells at cloud' type argument.

People have pointed out it's very feasible to close the gap financially to United these days and be successful on the pitch for different clubs, also how FFP should allow for this to happen but you don't seem particularly interested.

Yes or No, do you think City would have won the PL by now if they'd just done things by the rule book? Remembering you can self sponsor still and we're not even debating the multi club model. And, if yes, do you not think that would have been better for the league as a whole?
 
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Funny how the "challenge the status quo" line only ever seems to come from the supporters of clubs with dodgy, state-backed owners.
It’s also the most stupid of all arguments, Villa, Leicester, (Spurs a bunch of times) & Everton have all finished above the alleged top dog United since SAF retired.
None of them state funded.
 

Alex99

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It’s also the most stupid of all arguments, Villa, Leicester, (Spurs a bunch of times) & Everton have all finished above the alleged top dog United since SAF retired.
None of them state funded.
It is literally based in them not liking how dominant Fergie made us.
 

Chesterlestreet

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There's no very good reason to think that United would've fared much better in the post-SAF era if you eliminate City from the equation.

As @Fortitude says so well above, Fergie himself was United's not-so-secret weapon, not the revenue: that remained excellent, relatively speaking, but the Woodward era brutally demonstrated that United's ability to generate money as a "brand" means very little without competence on the football side.

What City's presence has ensured is that clubs like - especially - Liverpool, but also Arsenal and Spurs have missed out on truly capitalizing on United's failure to transition post Fergie.

And, yes, you can include Chelsea in that if you want to treat them as a more "organic" club in recent years.

Doesn't really matter, the point is clear enough: City's presence in the league hasn't benefited anyone or anything but themselves (obviously).
 

NicolaSacco

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I don't really get what you're trying to say other than a kind of 'old man yells at cloud' type argument.

People have pointed out it's very feasible to close the gap financially to United these days and be successful on the pitch for different clubs, also how FFP should allow for this to happen but you don't seem particularly interested.

Yes or No, do you think City would have won the PL by now if they'd just done things by the rule book? Remembering you can self sponsor still and we're not even debating the multi club model. And, if yes, do you not think that would have been better for the league as a whole?
1st paragraph: It’s very telling that you can’t resist having a little dig when you post. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. I’d hope you believe your argument holds up by itself. Childlike point scoring is not a substitute for making actual points in a debate.

2nd para: a) people may have ‘pointed out it’s very feasible’ to close the financial gap but they’d be wrong. Do you just blindly accept anything ‘pointed out’ to you, or do you form your own view? Remember all posters who have espoused this view are Utd fans who are trying to argue a point of view that absolutely relies on the idea that Utd are catchable.

b) I fully engaged with the person talking about the possible effects of FFP on other clubs spending. I think this may be the question you’ve wrongly claimed I haven’t answered. Just look through the posts and you’ll find it. It’s an interesting point that I’d not previously thought of. Of course the same effect could be achieved if Utd reined in their own spending. Inflationary pressure is not discriminatory after all. Utd have contributed to it just like City have. Although somehow I suspect you aren’t interested in the effect Utd’s spending has on inflation.

3rd para. If by ‘self sponsorship’ you’re saying that City’s owners could pay the club any amount of money as sponsors then yes absolutely they could have done what they’ve done. There’s maybe something I’m not seeing/understanding from your post, but I can’t see how the end result of that differs from dodgy sponsorships. It’s still money City can spend. If you’re asking me whether I think City could ever have grown organically to a club similar in size/revenue to Utd, then definitely not. And what’s more I don’t think any club could, not then, not now, not in the future.
 

Jeppers7

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1st paragraph: It’s very telling that you can’t resist having a little dig when you post. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. I’d hope you believe your argument holds up by itself. Childlike point scoring is not a substitute for making actual points in a debate.

2nd para: a) people may have ‘pointed out it’s very feasible’ to close the financial gap but they’d be wrong. Do you just blindly accept anything ‘pointed out’ to you, or do you form your own view? Remember all posters who have espoused this view are Utd fans who are trying to argue a point of view that absolutely relies on the idea that Utd are catchable.

b) I fully engaged with the person talking about the possible effects of FFP on other clubs spending. I think this may be the question you’ve wrongly claimed I haven’t answered. Just look through the posts and you’ll find it. It’s an interesting point that I’d not previously thought of. Of course the same effect could be achieved if Utd reined in their own spending. Inflationary pressure is not discriminatory after all. Utd have contributed to it just like City have. Although somehow I suspect you aren’t interested in the effect Utd’s spending has on inflation.

3rd para. If by ‘self sponsorship’ you’re saying that City’s owners could pay the club any amount of money as sponsors then yes absolutely they could have done what they’ve done. There’s maybe something I’m not seeing/understanding from your post, but I can’t see how the end result of that differs from dodgy sponsorships. It’s still money City can spend. If you’re asking me whether I think City could ever have grown organically to a club similar in size/revenue to Utd, then definitely not. And what’s more I don’t think any club could, not then, not now, not in the future.
You’re warped.
 

tomaldinho1

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1st paragraph: It’s very telling that you can’t resist having a little dig when you post. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. I’d hope you believe your argument holds up by itself. Childlike point scoring is not a substitute for making actual points in a debate.

2nd para: a) people may have ‘pointed out it’s very feasible’ to close the financial gap but they’d be wrong. Do you just blindly accept anything ‘pointed out’ to you, or do you form your own view? Remember all posters who have espoused this view are Utd fans who are trying to argue a point of view that absolutely relies on the idea that Utd are catchable.

b) I fully engaged with the person talking about the possible effects of FFP on other clubs spending. I think this may be the question you’ve wrongly claimed I haven’t answered. Just look through the posts and you’ll find it. It’s an interesting point that I’d not previously thought of. Of course the same effect could be achieved if Utd reined in their own spending. Inflationary pressure is not discriminatory after all. Utd have contributed to it just like City have. Although somehow I suspect you aren’t interested in the effect Utd’s spending has on inflation.

3rd para. If by ‘self sponsorship’ you’re saying that City’s owners could pay the club any amount of money as sponsors then yes absolutely they could have done what they’ve done. There’s maybe something I’m not seeing/understanding from your post, but I can’t see how the end result of that differs from dodgy sponsorships. It’s still money City can spend. If you’re asking me whether I think City could ever have grown organically to a club similar in size/revenue to Utd, then definitely not. And what’s more I don’t think any club could, not then, not now, not in the future.
Not a dig, it's how I would explain it - the Abe Simpson 'old man yells at cloud' argument. You seem to be complaining about something that cannot be changed because it's just where we were when the PL began, hence it's like yelling at a cloud. if you are still offended after understanding the reference, apologies.

Not sure if that is a serious second paragraph, just go look at the Deloitte money league or go on Statista. It's provably correct.

Why wouldn't I be interested in United's effect on spending - see that is what a dig is, not a Simpson's reference - but I don't think you're correct there and I don't think City have been that influential. PSG were the ones who started the craziness. Higher fees for bigger clubs is however surely contrary to your point? United and Wolves go for the same player, the selling club will expect more money from United and the player agent will expect higher wages/fees. City tend to get quite reasonable fees. They buy big name players and pay them through the nose but they actually have a negotiating team, unlike us.

Last para that wasn't my question, I asked you about them winning the league. From your answer, that thinking would be fine if we were just stuck in the 90's or something but the scale the PL is ramping now from a financial perspective is mind boggling. United had near 2 decades of dominance but in an age that was early days of tech and globalization and you only need to look at how quickly Spurs have scaled to show you are incorrect. They've won nothing. That's without even going into the fact that Spurs have been one of the bigger losers from the City issue, imagine how much richer/better they'd be having had more CL runs and not having guys like Walker nabbed.

Maybe you haven't looked into recent financial reports for the various PL teams but the way you post is as if you think the PL tv rights are the same as the La Liga rights which basically prop up Real. Using Spurs as an example, explain to me how in 2010 Spurs' revenue was £132m and United's was £327m (about 2.5x times greater) but now Spurs' revenue is £540m and United's is £638m?
 

subotai

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1st paragraph: It’s very telling that you can’t resist having a little dig when you post. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. I’d hope you believe your argument holds up by itself. Childlike point scoring is not a substitute for making actual points in a debate.

2nd para: a) people may have ‘pointed out it’s very feasible’ to close the financial gap but they’d be wrong. Do you just blindly accept anything ‘pointed out’ to you, or do you form your own view? Remember all posters who have espoused this view are Utd fans who are trying to argue a point of view that absolutely relies on the idea that Utd are catchable.

b) I fully engaged with the person talking about the possible effects of FFP on other clubs spending. I think this may be the question you’ve wrongly claimed I haven’t answered. Just look through the posts and you’ll find it. It’s an interesting point that I’d not previously thought of. Of course the same effect could be achieved if Utd reined in their own spending. Inflationary pressure is not discriminatory after all. Utd have contributed to it just like City have. Although somehow I suspect you aren’t interested in the effect Utd’s spending has on inflation.

3rd para. If by ‘self sponsorship’ you’re saying that City’s owners could pay the club any amount of money as sponsors then yes absolutely they could have done what they’ve done. There’s maybe something I’m not seeing/understanding from your post, but I can’t see how the end result of that differs from dodgy sponsorships. It’s still money City can spend. If you’re asking me whether I think City could ever have grown organically to a club similar in size/revenue to Utd, then definitely not. And what’s more I don’t think any club could, not then, not now, not in the future.
I'm Donald Trump's lawyer, and I endorse this post.
 
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. Using Spurs as an example, explain to me how in 2010 Spurs' revenue was £132m and United's was £327m (about 2.5x times greater) but now Spurs' revenue is £540m and United's is £638m?
He’s had this pointed out to him a tonne of times, but just completely ignores it.

He does exactly the same when talking about United not wanting anyone to challenge their spending power, it gets pointed out to him continuously that pre Abu Dhabi United’s spending power was constantly challenged and they had only a bunch of seasons after the treble in which they were top dog.

The fact he continues to ignore this yet engages daily by repeating his points that were proven incorrect the previous day, tells you all you need to know about why he’s actually in this thread and it aint for genuine discussion.
 

Bastian

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"We want to create the legacy. We want two Trebles in a row," said Silva.

That's a nice bit of unnecessary self-induced pressure. Posted here as the only relevant thread for everything City is 115.
:rolleyes:
 

NicolaSacco

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He’s had this pointed out to him a tonne of times, but just completely ignores it.

He does exactly the same when talking about United not wanting anyone to challenge their spending power, it gets pointed out to him continuously that pre Abu Dhabi United’s spending power was constantly challenged and they had only a bunch of seasons after the treble in which they were top dog.

The fact he continues to ignore this yet engages daily by repeating his points that were proven incorrect the previous day, tells you all you need to know about why he’s actually in this thread and it aint for genuine discussion.
Ha ha, “proven incorrect”. I know you want a monopoly on the truth, but it’s not yours to give. I’ve no idea what you think I’ve ignored but I reply to a ridiculous amount of messages on here. I’m sure I’ve missed some, and I’m sure I’ll continue to do so. At some point you’re just going to have to accept that without being flouncy. I fully accept that for your narrative to work I have to be some troll who is deliberately avoiding questions that you consider definitive. You can continue to push that narrative but it won’t make it any more true: I tell you what, I’ll have a trawl back through your multiple posts tomorrow and do my best to answer every one. Would that help you to acknowledge that I’m not trying to ignore you?
 

Gee Male

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Apr 10, 2009
Messages
4,314
1st paragraph: It’s very telling that you can’t resist having a little dig when you post. I wonder why you feel the need to do that. I’d hope you believe your argument holds up by itself. Childlike point scoring is not a substitute for making actual points in a debate.

2nd para: a) people may have ‘pointed out it’s very feasible’ to close the financial gap but they’d be wrong. Do you just blindly accept anything ‘pointed out’ to you, or do you form your own view? Remember all posters who have espoused this view are Utd fans who are trying to argue a point of view that absolutely relies on the idea that Utd are catchable.

b) I fully engaged with the person talking about the possible effects of FFP on other clubs spending. I think this may be the question you’ve wrongly claimed I haven’t answered. Just look through the posts and you’ll find it. It’s an interesting point that I’d not previously thought of. Of course the same effect could be achieved if Utd reined in their own spending. Inflationary pressure is not discriminatory after all. Utd have contributed to it just like City have. Although somehow I suspect you aren’t interested in the effect Utd’s spending has on inflation.

3rd para. If by ‘self sponsorship’ you’re saying that City’s owners could pay the club any amount of money as sponsors then yes absolutely they could have done what they’ve done. There’s maybe something I’m not seeing/understanding from your post, but I can’t see how the end result of that differs from dodgy sponsorships. It’s still money City can spend. If you’re asking me whether I think City could ever have grown organically to a club similar in size/revenue to Utd, then definitely not. And what’s more I don’t think any club could, not then, not now, not in the future.
This first paragraph is a parody, right? Ironic at the very least.

You might respond to this part - your second paragraph dismisses the notion that clubs can catch up to United - you seem to think that this is a fantasy of United fans - but all published financial information disputes your view. You have stated previously that if your view is found to be incorrect you will acknowledge that - will you do so on this point? Or just shift the goalposts again?