Reasonable assessment, but why isn’t Maguire on that list? surely he should be relieved of the captaincy at least?
Clearing out the squad for the new manager - yay or nay?
- Thread starter altodevil
- Start date
We have to be more pragmatic here. First of all, it’s not easy to sell players at all, not like hitting a magic button and then SOLD!
Secondly, we would be buying 3-4 players next summer for the new manager. Not more. We have never bought more than that, and without top 4, we probably won’t have a big budget.
So we need to be very practical here, sell players who want out or are bad eggs (Ralf should be helping out on this), while keeping some players who are not necessarily fan favourites for the next season. It’s a matter of balance. So fans who are expecting a massive clear out and buying, FM style, might be disappointed. I also don’t think Maguire would be sold next season. Because we can only buy so many players, and we have other positions in need. So keep your expectations grounded.
Secondly, we would be buying 3-4 players next summer for the new manager. Not more. We have never bought more than that, and without top 4, we probably won’t have a big budget.
So we need to be very practical here, sell players who want out or are bad eggs (Ralf should be helping out on this), while keeping some players who are not necessarily fan favourites for the next season. It’s a matter of balance. So fans who are expecting a massive clear out and buying, FM style, might be disappointed. I also don’t think Maguire would be sold next season. Because we can only buy so many players, and we have other positions in need. So keep your expectations grounded.
This.
I wouldn’t have agreed before the season. Now I can see how we have unmotivated super cry babies in the team. And that’s actually the most mature way I can say that.
The squad is an absolute mess, how it's been allowed to get into the state that it is, is beyond me.
There'll be a mini clear out this summer, but it's not by design. Ronaldo won't be staying around. Maybe Rashford leaves if PSG come sniffing around. Pogba, Cavani, and Lingard are walking out on a free.
De Gea, Heaton, Johnstone (I'm presuming Henderson will go)
Wan-Bissaka, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw, Telles
Mctominay, Fred, Matic, Donny, Fernandes, Hannibal, Pereira
Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Elanga
That squad is abysmal. The club are going to need to work miracles in the summer if they want to make us even somewhat competitive next season.
There'll be a mini clear out this summer, but it's not by design. Ronaldo won't be staying around. Maybe Rashford leaves if PSG come sniffing around. Pogba, Cavani, and Lingard are walking out on a free.
De Gea, Heaton, Johnstone (I'm presuming Henderson will go)
Wan-Bissaka, Dalot, Varane, Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw, Telles
Mctominay, Fred, Matic, Donny, Fernandes, Hannibal, Pereira
Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Elanga
That squad is abysmal. The club are going to need to work miracles in the summer if they want to make us even somewhat competitive next season.
Yes, The club needs a clear out and a rebuild of at least 3 seasons.
We are Liverpool before Klopp, United needs a plan and needs to think long term.
We are Liverpool before Klopp, United needs a plan and needs to think long term.
I think the worst part about this whole sorry fiasco is a fair number of the current squad know they’re bang average at best. What we’re now seeing is a confidence meltdown due to criticism from the fans & media, which has had a bigger effect on their performances.
We don't need a manager as in the old days we need a good coach with ideas for professional football that will be in the van for the next five to to ten years.
Football at the professional level goes in cycles, we've had;
... the 'deep lying center-forward' /now the 'false no 9'
...the 'El libre' (or the sweeper) was usually a center back , but now the.... 'sweep /keeper' format,
... 'ticky-tacky'/carousel style play
.... 'the high press'/low block..etc
Whats next, whose got the next great idea and where is s/he to be found... that is who we need at United?
Football at the professional level goes in cycles, we've had;
... the 'deep lying center-forward' /now the 'false no 9'
...the 'El libre' (or the sweeper) was usually a center back , but now the.... 'sweep /keeper' format,
... 'ticky-tacky'/carousel style play
.... 'the high press'/low block..etc
Whats next, whose got the next great idea and where is s/he to be found... that is who we need at United?
I think this is where Ralf will be integral. He will have had around six months of working with these guys come the end of the season and he’ll be saying which ones to keep, which ones can be worked on and which ones to get rid of.
Previously every new manager had no reference point other than Woodward probably, who may as well have said ‘dunno mate but I know their marketing potential and contract prices!’ and therefore had to start from scratch and had to give chances to players the entire fanbase had written off and who had already failed under numerous managers.
Previously every new manager had no reference point other than Woodward probably, who may as well have said ‘dunno mate but I know their marketing potential and contract prices!’ and therefore had to start from scratch and had to give chances to players the entire fanbase had written off and who had already failed under numerous managers.
I don’t think we have an option really, we can’t be in a position next year where we’re bringing players off the bench that don’t want to be here, it undermines everything you’re trying to achieve
I’d love for us to move away from these signings based on their social media followings etc and actually start to piece together a team, the contract situation as it stands is going to force the hand of the next manager anyway, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all, finally we won’t be forced to keep players like Pogba happy.
Just keep the ones who want to work, like Sancho and Elanga, and phase out the ones who don’t, replacing them with hard working young players that will die for the cause, I think we’re seeing the opposite end of the scale to that.. half of them assume they should win based on how many reactions their latest haircut received on Instagram
I’d love for us to move away from these signings based on their social media followings etc and actually start to piece together a team, the contract situation as it stands is going to force the hand of the next manager anyway, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all, finally we won’t be forced to keep players like Pogba happy.
Just keep the ones who want to work, like Sancho and Elanga, and phase out the ones who don’t, replacing them with hard working young players that will die for the cause, I think we’re seeing the opposite end of the scale to that.. half of them assume they should win based on how many reactions their latest haircut received on Instagram
The amount of players who are out of contract or already looking to leave guarantees something of a clear-out already. A good chunk of Henderson, Bailly, Jones, Matic, Mata, Pogba, VDB, Lingard, Greenwood, Cavani, Ronaldo, Rashford and Martial can go.
You would think that's enough to begin with. If we want to clear out more beyond that it can wait until next summer. This is why it's a multi-year job.
You would think that's enough to begin with. If we want to clear out more beyond that it can wait until next summer. This is why it's a multi-year job.
We signed 6 players in 2014 without any European football whatsoever.
To quote Barney Ronay in his excellent analysis in todays Guardian-
“Manchester United will now cruise past five years without winning a trophy. During this time the club have employed three laughably disconnected managers, done nothing to promote or protect their own infrastructure, splurged on an incoherent jambalaya of starry players, tried to join a super league and, as a kind of sparkly distraction, elected to pay half a million pounds a week to a non-essential 37-year-old celebrity.”
“Manchester United will now cruise past five years without winning a trophy. During this time the club have employed three laughably disconnected managers, done nothing to promote or protect their own infrastructure, splurged on an incoherent jambalaya of starry players, tried to join a super league and, as a kind of sparkly distraction, elected to pay half a million pounds a week to a non-essential 37-year-old celebrity.”
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Echo these sentiments.
There is a chunk of players who should and will leave regardless of manager. Ronaldo, Cavani, Lingard, Mata, Pogba, Pereira.
Others like Martial/Henderson/Van de Beek aren't good enough anyway but could find a useful squad role at least. We have tons to do before we start selling players who can at least be squad players and needing to replace them on top of what we need first. That's before we even get to guys like Rashford/Shaw etc. That's why those guys aren't going anywhere. Just so far down the pecking order of shit that needs to be addressed.
Others like Martial/Henderson/Van de Beek aren't good enough anyway but could find a useful squad role at least. We have tons to do before we start selling players who can at least be squad players and needing to replace them on top of what we need first. That's before we even get to guys like Rashford/Shaw etc. That's why those guys aren't going anywhere. Just so far down the pecking order of shit that needs to be addressed.
We're going to offer contracts to players that the fans think we should sell simply to reduce the amount of outgoings that will happen in the next two years. We aren't used to signing more than 4/5 players a window, normally it's 2/3.
Agreed, its not the players fault that we overpay all of them, or renew players then dont play them. Conflicting styles from successive managers add to the mess. That in turn makes it very hard to move players on. But we do need a clear out and I would love to see us stop the galictico style and OAP signings, not sure if any have been successful in recent years. Thinking Di Maria, Ronaldo, Maguire, Sanchez etc.
Lots of off the field 'foul ups' in running the club, but this 'weakness' has been at the heart of the 'on field' malaise for years, because its this weakness that causes the other problems, including the style(s) we play, or try to play.
Matic, for a year or so, looked the business, but then his long term back injury (which is why Chelsea let him go) slowed him down and now he can put in a reasonable 60--70 mins, but the legs are going and he was only ever a stop gap, he's not the future. Until we find someone who is all the other on-field positioning, style of play etc.problems will persist.
Every day Declan Rice looks the part and every day we delay the price will rise!!
I think we actually will sign about 5 players this summer, but yeah we'll still have to retain a lot of people that fans want us to sell with the number of outgoings we have anyway.
That seems fairly logical to me, hopefully we have some more cash this time round as we seemed to struggle post covid. Another problem we've got is that our Summer signings last time round will take a chunk of change out of this window too.
True, but i don’t think we live in those times anymore. Woodward wanted to rectify his first season, and tried overcompensating. We would need 3-4 starters now, on what is rumoured to be a much lower budget if we don’t make it to top 4.
If we want to play progressive modern football then yes we need a massive overhaul.
Must sell in the summer:
Maguire
Lingard
Pogba
AWB
Jones
Grant
Mata
Martial
Chong
Cavani
Ronaldo
Martial
Tuanzebe
Pereira
Donny
Would be good to get replaced:
Henderson
De Gea
Telles
Shaw
McTom
Dalot
To be upgraded in the future but not urgent:
Lindelöf
Dalot
Fred
Must sell in the summer:
Maguire
Lingard
Pogba
AWB
Jones
Grant
Mata
Martial
Chong
Cavani
Ronaldo
Martial
Tuanzebe
Pereira
Donny
Would be good to get replaced:
Henderson
De Gea
Telles
Shaw
McTom
Dalot
To be upgraded in the future but not urgent:
Lindelöf
Dalot
Fred
We could join a 5 a side league with that sort of overhaul.
It just never happens so no real point in dreaming about it. This is just the usual march football manager fantasy accounting
The fact is we can't afford to bin so many players in one summer. The state of this squad is atrocious as it is and we will have at least 6 departures as it is. Unfortunately our squad will be in constant transition over the next 2 seasona minimum.
DDG, Dalot, Telles, Lindelof, Varane, Fred, Mctominay, Bruno, Sancho, Elanga. These are the players that are worth keeping. Again not that all of them are at the required level but they are showing at least the bare minimum required to be a squad player here. That's it. 10 worthy players. The rest are either has beens, overpaid, or simply not good enough. We have a few very Grimm years ahead of us.
DDG, Dalot, Telles, Lindelof, Varane, Fred, Mctominay, Bruno, Sancho, Elanga. These are the players that are worth keeping. Again not that all of them are at the required level but they are showing at least the bare minimum required to be a squad player here. That's it. 10 worthy players. The rest are either has beens, overpaid, or simply not good enough. We have a few very Grimm years ahead of us.
I really can't accept that professional footballers cannot run more than 45 mins. These lazy players must be kicked out from the club regardless of who they are. Next season its a mandate that all players must run like City's players do or you are out. This is step number 1.
I don't care if we replace the entire team with young players. I want to see players give their all on and off the pitch. Not holidays in Dubai and Portugal mid season. Need time off to clear their headspace. Shamelessly can't commit themselves to maintenance fitness to run 90 mins. Complain going back in the dark. Complain about manager tactics while everyone can see that players cant run anymore after 45 mins.
I don't care if we replace the entire team with young players. I want to see players give their all on and off the pitch. Not holidays in Dubai and Portugal mid season. Need time off to clear their headspace. Shamelessly can't commit themselves to maintenance fitness to run 90 mins. Complain going back in the dark. Complain about manager tactics while everyone can see that players cant run anymore after 45 mins.
Reality check. There's a limit to how much of a squad you can replace at once. And "bringing through the youth" isn't actually a generic viable approach for a big club to rebuild. Unless you happen to have lots of elite youngsters who are ready to step up, which is rarely the case and most certainly is not the case with Manchester United today. If you bring 5 or 6 youth players into regular roles at once, not because they merit it but as a matter of approach, you don't end up with a foundation to build on. You just end up with a bad team that is going nowhere, and young players crushed by being thrust into positions of responsibility that are beyond their capacity. .
There's no quick way, no grand solution. We'll have the equivalent of a pretty big clearout just through the players whose contracts expire or otherwise disappear, and who will mostly need to be replaced - Cavani, Pogba, Lingard, Mata. Then there's Greenwood, also gone for nothing. Just replacing them, and maybe additionally finally get that DM everybody knows that we desperately need, is going to eat up the available resources, and then some. We're talking about, at a minimum, two top-class midfielders and two top-class attackers. Then there's a number of players that really should/wants to be moved out - Henderson, vd Beek, Martial, Bailly, probably Tuanzebe and Jones. My guess is we're not going to get very far down that list. They're never going to even seriously consider the sort of upgrade moves that might arguably be a good idea (Wan-Bissaka, Shaw, Maguire, Rashford, Matic, Ronaldo etc) - there's just way too much ahead of it on the list of priorities.
Let's be realistic here. The turnover's going to be maybe 5-7 players. And most of the outgoings are already settled. There are going to be many players on next year's team that a lot of people want to see gone.
Maguire's under the cosh and in poor form, but to be realistic we've at least 10-14 squad members that need to leave before we can start looking at Maguire.
Maguire is certainly one of our players who can be upgraded, but to be fair the club wont bail on him to save face if anything. He cost 80million quid and is our captain. He's staying next season. I'd rather see us get rid of Jones, Bailly and Tuanzebe at CB than Maguire.
We can't get rid of fringe players and replace starters in one window. It's too much to do. Even getting rid of 10 players who contribute nothing will be a massive achievement for our board
I am not having a go at OP because I do feel that there is something rotten in the culture. However, were we not supposed to have had a cultural reset with Ole when he said ' I'm gonna be successful here and there are players there that won't be part of that.' Then we subsequently sold / let go of Lukaku, Valencia, Fellaini, Smalling, Young, Darmian, Herrera, Rojo, Romero, Sanchez. Wasn't the culture supposed to have reset?
Or did we sell the wrong set of players? Will selling the likes of Lingard, Pogba, Jones, DDG, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, Matic, Fred, McT, Bailly change anything? And how do we ensure we don't end up buying another Maguire, AWB or a DVB?
I think what is badly needed is to get some competent people upstairs who can set the direction and hire people who they trust to get the job done. Otherwise we will end up with cycles of going through the same process without it leading us anywhere. Hard questions need to be asked - Is Murtough good enough or do we need to bring in someone else? What about his team - the scouts, Fletcher, Matt Judge, others in the background. The manager is the most important piece but cannot function in isolation - needs the other functions to do their job well.
Or did we sell the wrong set of players? Will selling the likes of Lingard, Pogba, Jones, DDG, Shaw, Martial, Rashford, Matic, Fred, McT, Bailly change anything? And how do we ensure we don't end up buying another Maguire, AWB or a DVB?
I think what is badly needed is to get some competent people upstairs who can set the direction and hire people who they trust to get the job done. Otherwise we will end up with cycles of going through the same process without it leading us anywhere. Hard questions need to be asked - Is Murtough good enough or do we need to bring in someone else? What about his team - the scouts, Fletcher, Matt Judge, others in the background. The manager is the most important piece but cannot function in isolation - needs the other functions to do their job well.
With the success we have had up to this point, I wouldn't want to see the Glazers faces when they are told the club has to replace 10 players to stay financially relevant...
You can only draw so much out of the well before it runs dry.
Could see them looking to sell in a few years if the board dont get it right or we risk going down the route of Everton.
You can only draw so much out of the well before it runs dry.
Could see them looking to sell in a few years if the board dont get it right or we risk going down the route of Everton.
Yeah completely agree. You only have to look at what a different Matic, on his own and well past his best, can make in our midfield. Imagine if we had two players of that ability, in their prime.
With all of the money we have spent, it staggers me we've never really addressed this position. We should be targeting Rice and Bellingham. That would be expensive but would effectively sort this position out for the foreseeable.
Massive clear out is needed, most of these players are at the club for their own gain. Money, Reputation and Self-Interest which is why we have stagnated over past 3 years, theres a reason England haven't won anything in past 60+ years even getting to the final of the last Euros by luck of the draws is their mentality is shit. Maguire, Shaw, AWB, Lingard, Rashford, Bailly, Matic, Mata all need to be moved on in the summer. If this club is serious they would even take cut price deals on the English lot who have dragged us down further than Moyes did. I would be happy not winning anything over next 4/5 years if I saw a team never give up and play out of their socks for the club, badge and us fans. Its like the ethos founded by Sir Matt and resurrected by Sir Alex has died and we have become ruled by the players and not the management/coaches. They have thrown every manager under the bus they are FINALLY getting the wrath and brunt of the fans and they deserve it.
It is a long way back to the top and the reality is that a scorched earth approach will not be possible, we won't have the budget for that many incoming players of the quality we need and as mentioned previously it is hard to integrate a lot of new players at once so we need to be looking at no more than 2 or 3 incomings a window. The squad is quite bloated at the moment so getting shot of upwards of 10 players won't impact us that much, most of those that would be leaving have barely played for years anyway. There is no quick fix however, the likes of Maguire and AWB probably do need replacing but we will never be able to sell them this summer with their reputations in tatters so we will have to shift them into squad roles and have faith that a top manager with a good coaching staff can rehabilitate them to the point where they can at least add value as depth and in time regain some value in the market.
Unless something happens, the below players are leaving in the summer: -
Then you have Martial & VdB, who could be moved on if their current loaning club make a decent offers for them.
That's 8/9 players leaving
This means we will need at least 2 new midfielders (to replace Pogba, Matic & Lingard), as well as 2 new forward players (to replace Cavani & Greenwood, 2 strikers or at least 1 striker + 1 winger), so that's 4 new players to fill numbers in midfield and attack
I am hoping we can get at least 4/5 new players, they should be players the new coach wants and they should be a starting 11 quality, established and ready to go, so the likes of Rashford & McFred can be demoted to squad players.
If we can get 4/5 new players to replace the leavers, that is a good deal of changes and it might spark change in performances.
But that's me being hopeful.
- Mata
- Lingard
- Pogba
- Cavani
Then you have Martial & VdB, who could be moved on if their current loaning club make a decent offers for them.
That's 8/9 players leaving
This means we will need at least 2 new midfielders (to replace Pogba, Matic & Lingard), as well as 2 new forward players (to replace Cavani & Greenwood, 2 strikers or at least 1 striker + 1 winger), so that's 4 new players to fill numbers in midfield and attack
I am hoping we can get at least 4/5 new players, they should be players the new coach wants and they should be a starting 11 quality, established and ready to go, so the likes of Rashford & McFred can be demoted to squad players.
If we can get 4/5 new players to replace the leavers, that is a good deal of changes and it might spark change in performances.
But that's me being hopeful.
Then why are you keeping one who is all three?
It’s alright saying clear out the squad but we don’t know how these players will perform under a new manager. Certain managers can get the best out of players, ten Hag is one of them that can improve players massively. Obviously we need to get rid of some players who just aren’t good enough for us but then there are others that deserve a chance under a proper coach and someone who puts effort into making players better. I reckon our young players, rashford included can really shine under ten Hag but it’s something we will never know until we see it.
Huge clear out needed either way:
Definite outs (should be)
- Cavani
- Pereira
- Bailly
- Jones
- Mata
- Matic
- Martial
- Pogba
- Lingard
Possible outs
- Ronaldo
- Shaw
- AWB
- Dalot
- Henderson
- Rashford??????
I honestly think at least 10 first teamers should be going this year. It will need a minimum of 5 to come in.
This summer is absolutely massive for us. I just hope the new manager already knows who he is so he can have an eye on his shopping list already.
I'm in very little doubt we will cock it up though and go in to next season very similar to this one with somebody like Poch as manager (Wrong choice).
Definite outs (should be)
- Cavani
- Pereira
- Bailly
- Jones
- Mata
- Matic
- Martial
- Pogba
- Lingard
Possible outs
- Ronaldo
- Shaw
- AWB
- Dalot
- Henderson
- Rashford??????
I honestly think at least 10 first teamers should be going this year. It will need a minimum of 5 to come in.
This summer is absolutely massive for us. I just hope the new manager already knows who he is so he can have an eye on his shopping list already.
I'm in very little doubt we will cock it up though and go in to next season very similar to this one with somebody like Poch as manager (Wrong choice).
We won’t be having a clear out that quick. It’ll take 3 seasons from now to get the proper clear out the club needs
That is your opinion but the fact is he is one of the few players here who has won a PL title and his form has been more than decent this year. It may well be he will be replaced in a few years but there are far bigger issues with the team and the handful of better options out there would take every penny of our budget and then some and please don't try and talk up Henderson, that myth has already been disproved.
Yes, this is needed. You cannot change this team without getting rid of most of the personnel.
Liverpool cleared out tons of rubbish within two seasons of Klopp joining. If Liverpool refused, they would have never won the Premier League.
We are in a good position this summer to ship out a lot of players, and we should be taking advantage of it.
Mata
Matic
Pogba
Lingard
Martial
Henderson
Bailly
Cavani
De Beek
These can all be shipped out this summer, and that is an enormous burden on wages being freed up. Most of them barely play. It needs to be done or we won't go anywhere.
There are other players I would love for us to ship out, also, but I think the above is realistic in terms of a single summer. Replace some of them with first team players, and bench the remaining rubbish or stale players in first team, who should be offloaded next summer.
McTominay
Maguire (tough, admittedly)
Wan Bissaka (Think he will have quite a few teams lower in the PL interested)
Shaw (too stale)
Ronaldo (maybe this season - is getting too old)
Liverpool cleared out tons of rubbish within two seasons of Klopp joining. If Liverpool refused, they would have never won the Premier League.
We are in a good position this summer to ship out a lot of players, and we should be taking advantage of it.
Mata
Matic
Pogba
Lingard
Martial
Henderson
Bailly
Cavani
De Beek
These can all be shipped out this summer, and that is an enormous burden on wages being freed up. Most of them barely play. It needs to be done or we won't go anywhere.
There are other players I would love for us to ship out, also, but I think the above is realistic in terms of a single summer. Replace some of them with first team players, and bench the remaining rubbish or stale players in first team, who should be offloaded next summer.
McTominay
Maguire (tough, admittedly)
Wan Bissaka (Think he will have quite a few teams lower in the PL interested)
Shaw (too stale)
Ronaldo (maybe this season - is getting too old)
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Yeah I agree they should not be the decision makers. I don’t have any issue with the football people behind the scenes overruling the manager as we can’t have a recruitment structure that relies on a manager anymore. Like we all know times have changed and it’s very rare for a manager to last beyond 3 years.
The problem arises as you say, when the likes of Woodward and Murtough who are not football qualified, make these decisions. Yes let’s hope Ralf and the new manager are listened to!
Yeah fully agree. My issue is that Ralf hasn’t been given any decision power so I don’t see how our transfer structure has changed in any way. Still non-football people involved just like before. The non-football people like Murtough should of course set the budget but not be dictating incomings and outgoings. I have no expectations for this summer but of course still have that crazy football fan hope that it might be a great transfer window
