Accusing me of "belittling" photos of sick kids beats that and gets an appropriate response pal.
24 posts later (and risingI didn't start the thread. Not really arsed participating in it either
)Clearing up some myths about Roy Keane
- Thread starter gav81
- Start date
)But you did.....You saying I'm showing favoritism to players of my country is utter bollocks considering I roast them anytime the opportunity presents itself. (See Evans, McNair, Harte, O Shea, Robbie Keane etc)Accusing me of "belittling" photos of sick kids beats that and gets an appropriate response pal.
24 posts later (and rising
Well, if you'd like to dry your eyes and stop responding to me, I'll stop posting. Simples
Or, there is an option called "ignore." Don't be afraid to use it
I've got a "Roy with puppy" card too: -I wondered when the "Roy with a dying kid" card would be played
He has helped to promote Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind since 2003.
My god, don't make me bring out the "Roy hugging Martin O'Neill" card next!
But seriously, these examples show there is a caring, human side to Keane, of course there bloody is. I know most people will already realise this, it's more to refute those who call him a flat out "cnut/awful person/terrible human being/etc".
Nope, at heart, when that competitive edge is put to the side, he's one of the truly good guys.
Ah I see. My post you initially quoted was specifically discussing that issue of the Haaland incident and why supporters don’t hold Ferguson to the same standard for a similar incident or why they less frequently raise Cantona’s moments of madness. But you were actually asking “Why do you think people view Keane differently?” in a wider scope than that.
Well, the two suggestions I made for the difference in treatment still stand and we are in agreement that the fallout between Keane and Ferguson is probably the main factor. The point I am making is that factor should not bias views on unrelated events. It is not logical to argue, for example, ‘Keane is a headcase for kicking someone but Cantona isn’t… because the former fell out with Ferguson’. That last part shouldn’t be brought into it. Keane and Cantona should be held to the same standard on the specific issue.
I know the above is not what you personally have said, it’s just what I see in general.
Just reading your post again, help me out with something. What is worse, that Keane fell out with Ferguson, or that he allowed it to affect what he said (“they have wiped me from their history and I have wiped them from mine”)? Isn’t the explanation I gave above in post #268 good enough? Why don’t Keane’s more recent words absolve him (“I loved everything about United”)? Or perhaps it’s just Keane’s conduct in general when it comes to Ferguson that you are talking about?
I would really like to pinpoint the issue so I can better understand where some supporters are coming from.
You wrote, “… stop putting words there that I did not write or bringing up points I did not raise…”. That is trying to impose what I can or can’t write/raise.
For what prompted this thread, please read the OP – nothing specific; a general emnity that exists toward Keane.
Also, I post on two forums.
I wonder, could you stop crying and screaming (figuratively speaking of course) about what I can or can’t post, where I post and how pedantic I am, so we can concentrate on something worthwhile, like the topic?…
So ok, as I was saying to Gaz above, for me, Keane more than any other player represents the fabric of United; the heart and soul of the club that I knew for 25 years.
The hunger, passion and desire, the indomitable winning mentality, highest standards and strive for perfection, the combative, ‘blood and guts’, wear your heart on your sleeve approach, the fight and determination, having a real go from the first whistle to the last and never accepting defeat, the excitement and relentless will to drive the ball forward in wave after wave of attacks at every opportunity, imprinting all this on the next generation of players. We were United, we were feared, respected and admired.
That’s what United, Ferguson and Keane represent to me.
What is United to you?
No I didn't Rossi. Take your half baked agendas elsewhere please.
"roast them anytime the opportunity presents itself"? You've certainly not been roasting Harte, O Shea or Keane though have you? Not like you to be economical with the truth.
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A Football team.
Just kidding
I've never suggested he wasn't and disagree with those who flat out call him a terrible person. Probably every United player of the last 40 odd years has done their bit for charity publicised or not and in that respect Roy is no different. But you can't take issue with the fact that Roy has always been and remains unable to keep a lid on his anger. It was that which led to the Haaland tackle for example and debate about whether it ended the guy's career or not is kind of irrelevant now (I think it's pretty obvious that it didn't) The fact is that it was one of those tackles that comes as close as you can get to assault on a football pitch and it was born out of pure anger. Publicity shots of him with puppies doesn't alter that.
I like Roy Keane a lot and miss him on the pitch. I can say the same for countless players over the years but that doesn't stop me from seeing them objectively.
I can't speak for everyone but I find his words now that he has always loved United to be hollow. He's clearly lying. He didn't give a shit about Utd because of Alex Ferguson. I can't remember what post it was you had the quote about him getting a season ticket but it was specifically after Alex Ferguson left. You shouldn't judge individual actions based on the fact he fell out with Alex Ferguson or said the things he did but it's human nature. Had Eric Cantona said he didn't care about Man United then you'd likely see the same reaction Keane got. But he didn't so he doesn't.
I don't think there's any great injustice to put right here. Some think he wasn't a great manager and he wasn't particularly. It doesn't mean he's made a mistake at every turn but he clearly hasn't been good enough so far. Anyone who watched him play football still hold his play in high regard so there's no problem there. All that's left is those who don't like him as a person for varying reasons. Being disliked isn't a myth. It's just a personal opinion.
Thanks for that. That's all the links Rossi provided and the pictures I posted were in response to - someone on the thread who called Keane an "awful human-being".
I don't take issue with the way you put it above. I like a bit of anger - it's a powerful motivator. Many of the greats have that aspect to their character, including Ferguson. I only take issue with descriptions like "headcase" etc, which we have also seen on the thread.
True:
Keano's f**king magic, he wears a magic hat.
Keano's f**king magic, he wears a magic hat.
Without going into too much detail, my life as a youth was extremely difficult and I was in a dark place.......United and books were the only things that brought me joy, and therefore they are part of my DNA. That's how much they mean to me. Back then then there was no Fergie, no Keane or Cantona, but there was always the United spirit. The United way. Granted it didn't always materialise, and we have had ups and downs.You wrote, “… stop putting words there that I did not write or bringing up points I did not raise…”. That is trying to impose what I can or can’t write/raise.
So I can't ask you to not attribute opinions that I didn't give to me? You see that as me imposing on you. Ok. I feel your pain.
For what prompted this thread, please read the OP – nothing specific; a general emnity that exists toward Keane.
Also, I post on two forums.
I wonder, could you stop crying and screaming (figuratively speaking of course) about what I can or can’t post, where I post and how pedantic I am, so we can concentrate on something worthwhile, like the topic?…
Touche
So ok, as I was saying to Gaz above, for me, Keane more than any other player represents the fabric of United; the heart and soul of the club that I knew for 25 years.
The hunger, passion and desire, the indomitable winning mentality, highest standards and strive for perfection, the combative, ‘blood and guts’, wear your heart on your sleeve approach, the fight and determination, having a real go from the first whistle to the last and never accepting defeat, the excitement and relentless will to drive the ball forward in wave after wave of attacks at every opportunity, imprinting all this on the next generation of players. We were United, we were feared, respected and admired.
That’s what United, Ferguson and Keane represent to me.
What is United to you?
I find it difficult to attribute all things great about the club I love to Roy, Alex or Eric for that matter. They all were important cogs in the success of the team, but Iike any engine, you eventually have to change the components. Time waits for no man. I don't want Alex back. He had his time. I don't want Eric back he had his time, and yeah I feel that Roy has too.
I beleve we are moving into a new era and maybe it's time to fondly remember and move the feck on. That's all I'm saying. The club's success doesn't hinge one one man.
Hope that answers your question?
It's odd that United fans - of all people - are so eager to promote established United figures as future managers. The club's history doesn't suggest that the above is a good idea at all. We did it once - and it was a disaster.
We then tried to carry on the winning ways of our most successful manager ever (who wasn't a United man when we hired him) by hiring someone supposedly cut from the same cloth (and recommended by the great man himself) - and it was another disaster.
If anything, our history suggests that clinging on to what is known and has worked in the past - is a bad idea.
Tevez is probably regarded as one of the biggest cnuts on here, yet I'm sure if you dig deep, you'll find loads of charitable stuff he's done, some with Drogba whom people don't like and view unfavourably, so I'm not quite sure what peddling some charitable pictures as an agenda to paint Keane in a good light actually achieves.
I think there have been very few exceptions where the "bootroom" approach has worked in the last 20-25 years. Liverpool tried to hang on to this and totally fecked themselves.
The game is evolving. and I always want my club to be at the cutting edge of that. We tried to play it safe after SAF left and look at what happened. We Damn near lost our identity! Returning to the old guard will be counter productive because of the emotions and history imo.
I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that while Drogba may have behaved like a cnut on the pitch at times he's actually a really good person. A lot of people seem to fail to grasp the difference when it comes to Keane though.
Giggs receives a lot of negative posts about his off-field behavior, including many who believe that makes him unsuited to be United's manager in the future. They still think he was a great player for us though.
Giggs is a sad excuse for a man.
See it is not just Keane who catches some criticism for his behavior.
False: gab81 is Roy Keane.
Same dude who constantly lobbied the newbies for Keano as our next manager, right?
Same dude who constantly lobbied the newbies for Keano as our next manager, right?
I wouldn't be surprised if Giggs's actions hurt him long-term. I always felt due to his longevity and accomplishments he had a serious shot at getting a knighthood, after his off-the-field issues I'm not so sure. While a bunch of people with flawed personal lives has one, I do think it may hurt his chances. As for being Untied's manager, I don't think it should harm his chances unless the players wouldn't respect him due to his actions. Although, long-term, it seems most United fans have realized we should move away for the romanticism of appointing Giggs to the position of manager and simply hire the best available coach. While he wasn't a United player, there was romanticism romaticism about the Moyes hire, thinking that we would have the next great Scotish manager to follow in the steps of SAF and Sir Matt.
I think maybe you are reading something into it that isn't there? All Keane said is that he, “loved everything about United” in reference to his time at the club. There is no reason to think a man known for his 'brutal honesty' is lying about that. He didn't say, as you suggest, that he 'always loved United' to the present day. So I'm not sure what there is to hold against him there.
I'm sorry to hear about your early life and I'm glad United helped a little with that.
You mention the United way/spirit but don't really define what that is in your view. You make a lot of reference to ups and downs, changes, moving on, etc. I guess if that is your experience of United then I understand the lack of connection to any one era and willingness to leave Ferguson's United behind.
It's different for me because I have only ever known Ferguson and consistent success. Because of that I have a very set idea of how United should be and what we represent. For me, it's madness to willingly leave behind, especially in light of the past three seasons. The lack of success and more reserved playstyle are not making it easy for me to adjust.
For me, the stark similarities between them mean Keane is the best candidate to continue Ferguson's legacy.
Our history shows a quarter of a century devoid of success until Ferguson emulated Busby.
I don't know much about the character of Wilf McGuinness but I do know he finished playing at 22 years old and it was an enormous ask for him to take the reins from Busby at only 31. I know about Moyes and, like most supporters, could see he was not a good match to Ferguson from day one. So we didn't make the right appointments to realistically continue the Busby or Ferguson eras. The last thing I want to see is another long period of underachievement (one of which we are already three years too far into).
Imagine if Ferguson, the closest match to Busby, had taken the reins in 1969, wouldn't our success have continued unabated? Imagine if a candidate, the closest match to Ferguson, had taken the reins in 2013. Too late now, but I say let's not wait a quarter of a century again.
Perhaps. Fergie was up and down, though, before he perfected the formula. It took him several seasons to get it right, so if that's anything to go by it would have been a rocky ride rather than pure, unabated success.
Anyway, I don't see the relevance. Fergie wasn't a natural "heir" to Matt Busby in 1986. He was a top manager we hired because he was just that - not because he had a long standing connection to United, or had the obvious appearance of a Busby clone.
Not really, he has done some extremely cnuty things, not just bad judgement some premeditated.
If someone intentionally went out of their way to injury a current United player to the point their career would end, that person would be called a massive cnut in here....he'll the guy who broke shaws leg has been called as much
We may need to dispel his 'brutal honesty' myth.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...its-in-defence-of-Arsene-Wenger-Football.html
What he did was terrible, and disrespectful to the game (even if he had legitimate reasons for hating Haland). But its a bit of a myth that Keane ended Haland's career. Haland's knee was already in terrible shape, and he played immediately after Keane's kick, just not many times after and was done after needing surgery that summer.
Clutching straws here mate, the damage Keane did may not of stopped him that very day but it was an injury he would never recover from and ultimately leave him having to quit the game
I can't believe redcafe members are denigrating one of your best, most decorated and arguably most influential United players of all time. I feel sorry for the loyal supporters on here. And the absolute face palm when the newbies mock Keane in comparison to Pogba......................that's kind of an end times prophesy right there
Fergie claimed in his biography that he got stuck in brawls. You can't complain about a player doing so if a manager led by example.
fully agree.I've got a "Roy with puppy" card too: -
He has helped to promote Irish Guide Dogs for the Blind since 2003.
My god, don't make me bring out the "Roy hugging Martin O'Neill" card next!
But seriously, these examples show there is a caring, human side to Keane, of course there bloody is. I know most people will already realise this, it's more to refute those who call him a flat out "cnut/awful person/terrible human being/etc".
Nope, at heart, when that competitive edge is put to the side, he's one of the truly good guys.
Not to week of 2 cup finals he didnt.
Haland playing after doesn't mean he wasn't injured after. I've competed with injuries, bit my teeth and carried on, only to worsen the injury.
Except it wasn't the knee Keane kicked that gave out. Keane kicked his right knee, and it was his left that ended his career.
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/haaland-admission-could-wreck-case-6316729.html
Keane was long gone before Gibson was in the first team squad, was he not?
Yeah, Gibson didn't get a first team game til 2008/2009 in the league. It seems Fletcher was the youth he had some problems with. The thing is, if Keane did what he did when he was one of the best players in the world, it would of been written off as Keane being Keane, but due to his decline in play, he gave management the excuse they needed to dump a guy who was beloved by fans. As shown by the fact he had to retire at the end of the year, Keane was done, and Fergie knew it. It was Ferguson at his most ruthless, to build our next great squad we needed to move on.
A case could be made for over compensation on the weaker side but I think the main point in all of this is Keane having made that cowardly tackle that in the dressing room and had no remorse? Non? The guy was a fantastic footballer I'm delighted he was in the middle of our engine room when I started to follow football and got to watch his career unfold.
But there are enough situations out there that leave serious question marks over his character.
There are the copious amounts of off the ball incidents, the way shearer totally got under his skin, the whole Ireland fiasco in the world cup non the less! And yes the way he handled that mutv interview. The list could go on but I want to make it very clear that he was a marvellous footballer that we were lucky to have.
Suarez is another example, fantastic footballer but an absolute cnut
We have been exchanging banter for a couple of days now and yet your still able to extend a nice gesture. Appreciate it and wanted to acknowledge it. Love in over. Still want the banter tho!
The ups were the FA cup runs. Jeez was the FA cup great back then. The downs being the continual failure to deliver the league trophy.
Despite that I don't think that the club or the supporters stopped believing that we were going to be great again.
When Sir Alex arrived he had to pretty much rebuild the club from top to bottom to achieve the success that your generation have pretty much taken for granted (not aimed at you btw, just a lot of younger supporters in general). Back then imagine how some of the fanbase felt when they saw some of their heroes being shipped out of the club, and Alex's intial start. A few years later and how wrong were some of us? I can see Jose doing the same things too. It something clubs have to do to move to the next level.
I think the lesson I have learned over the years that you sometimes have to sacrifice the things you love to achieve success.
Perhaps Fergie was up and down during those initial years because he had 15+ years of underachievement to undo by that point?
The relevance is, whether by accident or design doesn't matter, Fergie was a Busby clone in the most important regards. In the craving of control and the discipline they exercised, in their hunger and winning mentality, the standards they demanded, but most importantly the way each built foundations of the club from the youth system up and particularly the attacking brand of football they employed.
“Busby and Fergie are the same. Fergie is an image of Busby without Busby’s calmness.”
~Denis Law
“When I look at Roy Keane I often see myself, I equate this to his passion, desire and striving for perfection. He cares. He's a born winner. He is the driving force, the inspiration, the best reader of the game, the best talker of the game, the biggest winner.”
~Alex Ferguson
“Me and Alex Ferguson, we had the same type of traits, of what Manchester United was about.”
~Roy Keane
It makes too much sense to ignore.
Well if you read the full article, Keane adds the qualifier he would consider punditry if he falls on "hard times", and he hadn't found a new club for the 2011-12 season, so why not. Just because he changed his mind about doing something due to the circumstances, doesn't mean he wasn't honest in his opinion at the time. And a final thing to realise about Keane is his personality means he can say things in a very strong way which can be misinterpreted if taken over-literally.