Club Ownership | INEOS responsible for the football side

[Ali Dia]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

You are one of the best posters on here. The difference between Nice Lausanne and Utd? One is costing them billions more than the other two combined. Utd always news on the front and back pages of the papers. The team they are installing here is on a different level to Nice. For their other teams they have been using random coaches and sporting directors using data to find value or so I believe. Has it been perfect? No. Here they’ve went straight in and identified the very best people available for the sporting /stadium, training /medical. What else do people want? It’s totally normal to chat to other managers after you’ve finished 8th. Get others opinions as to how they would fix us and is that viable and then make your decision based on all of the facts. Everything else is going to take time to fall into place.This place is going to be even more unbearable once we hit genuine setbacks.

 

[Blood Mage]

If they had a clear vision of how they wanted the team to play they'd have sacked Ten Hag and identified a new coach by now. They don't have a clue, making it up as they go along just like Avram and Joel. Be very afraid folks.

 

[Marcelinho87]

All the journos are just speculating as they don’t have the old moles in the camp leaking everything these days.

Just a different spin on things, but SJR has always networked with lots of different people from different positions/clubs and sports over the years.

He also lives in Monaco - therefore post F1 race when everyone who is anyone in sport were in town that SJR decided to meet up with some football people (he knows Tuchel from meeting him at Chelsea) does not mean he was touting the current position to him? Could have possibly been talking about some Bayern players that we are interested in or seeing what TT has planned down the line?

However the narrative is that Tuchel rejected an approach based on the sporting project? That is just pure speculation.

I would be fairly certain that ETH knows what’s happening and that they have plenty of dialogue with him. Ineos do not appear to respond to any media speculation which does help fuel it but to think that they are going around offering the job to various managers is very unrealistic especially when you have someone in the position already.

If ETH is going then he already knew/knows it. An agreement on severance would keep that quiet.

I do however think that a statement either way regarding the manager is imperative otherwise the media frenzy just continues to speculate and for Ineos to appear indecisive.

I agree with most of this, I think the time of leaks are over with INEOS and people here are going to have to get used to less info coming out.

As for "media frenzy" I don't think we can really consider random Romano guesses and what seems like a coked up Jamie Jackson tweet a media frenzy, if anything I think it's quite quiet outside of the quite obvious guesses been thrown about.

 

[simonhch]

Great post. I was honestly ready to give up with this forum before reading that.

Brilliant post!

This person talks sense & logic. Burn him!

Everyone needs to read this. Incredible post.

This is pretty much the exact reason i don't think we're actively approaching managers for this summer. Considering the people we've approached and hired for key positions, when they are joining, the decision to sack and hire a different manager isn't one we're likely to be in a rush to make. As you say, the changes we need to make are unlikely to have instant effects, so without a no brainer of an available manager (Like Klopp being available when Liverpool sacked Rodgers), we'd easily be better off waiting and seeing how we progress next season. Obviously, if the higher ups have no faith in Ten Hag then a short term option, just for next season or so, wouldn't be out of the question, but trying to approach someone for the long term when the club is still a complete mess is usually not a good idea as it doesn't take more than a bad season for someone to get sacked.

Instead of writing a long new post, I’ll rather repeat this. If anyone read the first couple of paragraphs earlier, you can read a few more of them now

Of course, we should be tolerant with our fellow fans’ anxiousness as well - it’s not easy sitting on the sidelines and just ‘trust the processes’ inside the dressing room and board room, when we have almost no clue wether it’s simonhch in there concocting a fantastic new change we can believe in, or a maniacal narcissistic Victor Glazer Frankenstein regen plotting the end of the world as we love it.

You are one of the best posters on here. The difference between Nice Lausanne and Utd? One is costing them billions more than the other two combined. Utd always news on the front and back pages of the papers. The team they are installing here is on a different level to Nice. For their other teams they have been using random coaches and sporting directors using data to find value or so I believe. Has it been perfect? No. Here they’ve went straight in and identified the very best people available for the sporting /stadium, training /medical. What else do people want? It’s totally normal to chat to other managers after you’ve finished 8th. Get others opinions as to how they would fix us and is that viable and then make your decision based on all of the facts. Everything else is going to take time to fall into place.This place is going to be even more unbearable once we hit genuine setbacks.

Thanks for taking the time to read such a long post, and thanks for the responses chaps. I’m relieved there are so many like minded people on here. Some I already knew about because I’d noticed their sensible postings @Ali Dia and others I’ll now be following.

 

[Marcelinho87]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

Post of the year right here.

 

[Lyng]

Post of the year right here.

Not really. It's all true but also theoretical.
The reason some are worried are not based on stupidity like the post insinuates, but instead on Ineos previous work with Lausanne and Nice which has been less than stellar.

No one is doom and gloom but claiming that the way this manager situation has been handled so far is due diligence is extremely generous...at best.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Not really. It's all true but also theoretical.
The reason some are worried are not based on stupidity like the post insinuates, but instead on Ineos previous work with Lausanne and Nice which has been less than stellar.

No one is doom and gloom but claiming that the way this manager situation has been handled so far is due diligence is extremely generous...at best.

No one? Nothing quite as melodramatic as the caf (Not yourself, but plenty are)

Also their work with Lausanne and Nice I am not privy to, I can see the positions in the table and that is that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

This is on the whole a good post, there's no doubt about that.

But I can't help but point out this:

Preaching patience to United fans at this point can be summed up thus:

a) it's necessary (it's always necessary to some degree).

b) it's been done every single year since Fergie retired.

Point? Don't have one, really, except: I understand why people aren't all that patient.

 

[Lash]

You are one of the best posters on here. The difference between Nice Lausanne and Utd? One is costing them billions more than the other two combined. Utd always news on the front and back pages of the papers. The team they are installing here is on a different level to Nice. For their other teams they have been using random coaches and sporting directors using data to find value or so I believe. Has it been perfect? No. Here they’ve went straight in and identified the very best people available for the sporting /stadium, training /medical. What else do people want? It’s totally normal to chat to other managers after you’ve finished 8th. Get others opinions as to how they would fix us and is that viable and then make your decision based on all of the facts. Everything else is going to take time to fall into place.This place is going to be even more unbearable once we hit genuine setbacks.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth and the likes being installed. I think the plans for the stadium are bold and exciting as well. It seems very odd all those decisions were very decisive and would argue they would need more thought than a manager, considering they're so integral to the new structure and managers are now pretty disposable in this new set up. The candidates that are reported to have had interviews are a bit all over the place, with regards to deemed a truly considered approach.

People can highlight this particular change hasn't been one anywhere near as well delivered as the other decisions they've made and I have the same attitude for how they've ruthlessly cost cut at seemingly trivial areas. A CEO view will always want you to "see the bigger picture" as it's a good way of hiding the things they don't do particularly well, even if overall they will have a net positive in the long term. That doesn't exclude them from criticism in the present.

 

[Lyng]

I don't think anyone has a problem with Berrada, Wilcox, Ashworth and the likes being installed. I think the plans for the stadium are bold and exciting as well. It seems very odd all those decisions were very decisive and would argue they would need more thought than a manager, considering they're so integral to the new structure and managers are now pretty disposable in this new set up. The candidates that are reported to have had interviews are a bit all over the place, with regards to deemed a truly considered approach.

People can highlight this particular change hasn't been one anywhere near as well delivered as the other decisions they've made and I have the same attitude for how they've ruthlessly cost cut at seemingly trivial areas. A CEO view will always want you to "see the bigger picture" as it's a good way of hiding the things they don't do particularly well, even if overall they will have a net positive in the long term. That doesn't exclude them from criticism in the present.

Excellent post

 

[Lyng]

No one? Nothing quite as melodramatic as the caf (Not yourself, but plenty are)

Also their work with Lausanne and Nice I am not privy to, I can see the positions in the table and that is that.

Well twitter is worse no?

Where I will agree with @simonhch is that they have hired the right football people, and as long as they let them work it will most likely work out in the long run.
I just worry about Jim and Brailsford and how much they decide because their previous work at football clubs, as I said, is less than stellar.
And this manager ordeal reeks of their previous work.
The sooner Ashworth gets installed the better.

 

[Marcelinho87]

Well twitter is worse no?

Where I will agree with @simonhch is that they have hired the right football people, and as long as they let them work it will most likely work out in the long run.
I just worry about Jim and Brailsford and how much they decide because their previous work at football clubs, as I said, is less than stellar.
And this manager ordeal reeks of their previous work.
The sooner Ashworth gets installed the better.

Does it reek of their previous work or is it a case of them NOT involving themselves as previously and waiting for the right people.

Twitter and here these days is very similar unfortunately.

 

[Lyng]

Does it reek of their previous work or is it a case of them NOT involving themselves as previously and waiting for the right people.

Twitter and here these days is very similar unfortunately.

Look in to their former work. For me personally it feels eerily similar but your mileage may vary.

 

[diarm]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

Superb.

I’d vote for a rule where every one of us had our forum privileges revoked until we’ve read and acknowledged this post.

 

[Lash]

Does it reek of their previous work or is it a case of them NOT involving themselves as previously and waiting for the right people.

Twitter and here these days is very similar unfortunately.

Apart from they've explicitly involved themselves in all of this by all reports?

 

[Marcelinho87]

Apart from they've explicitly involved themselves in all of this by all reports?

Exactly, and if you read my previous further up I am of the belief that reporters are grasping because for once they aren't been given a sniff.

 

[Lash]

Exactly, and if you read my previous further up I am of the belief that reporters are grasping because for once they aren't been given a sniff.

So you don't believe Ratcliffe met Tuchel, for example?

 

[Salford_Red83]

CAF: "Let's wait until the new INEOS structure is in place to judge Erik."

INEOS structure: "You know what, maybe we need to start looking at potential management replacements, he's literally the worst performing manager since Fergie."

CAF: "No, not like that. Bad INEOS."

 

[buchansleftleg]

So do we reckon the conversation was going really well with Tuchel until he asked...."and what is the transfer budget for this summer?"

I'm thinking he then listened to 2-3 minutes of SJR talking about Macro-economic factors....economic down turn in UK market growth....focus on youth development while the Monegasque waiter brought over another "old fashioned" to Sir Jim.

I suspect Tuchel had already disengaged from the process before the final figure was given.

 

[Overhaul FC]

If INEOS appoint Southgate who it appears they want. It would be a Moyes like signing.

 

[Grande]

Well twitter is worse no?

Where I will agree with @simonhch is that they have hired the right football people, and as long as they let them work it will most likely work out in the long run.
I just worry about Jim and Brailsford and how much they decide because their previous work at football clubs, as I said, is less than stellar.
And this manager ordeal reeks of their previous work.
The sooner Ashworth gets installed the better.

This is a very sensible or should I say funkadelic point. I too would worry if Sir Jim, Sir Dave and The Blanc Knight take these decisions (style of football going forward, profile of players to match, choice of manager to match). Fair they can make decisions on stadium build policy and stuff that belongs to that particular boardroom discussions, but I’d rather wait until Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox (and a new HoR?) get their cards sorted sufficiently to make coherent decisions about the football stuff from a coherent strategy that they’ve also made.

 

[lex talionis]

If INEOS appoint Southgate who it appears they want. It would be a Moyes like signing.

We would be better off appointing Moyes than Southgate.

 

[pascell]

If INEOS appoint Southgate who it appears they want. It would be a Moyes like signing.

Moyes is PL proven, the same can't be said about Southgate.

 

[MDFC Manager]

We would be better off appointing Moyes than Southgate.

Exactly this.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

Park Life.

Just kidding, you're spot on.

 

[Teja]

That NYtimes article is more journalistic nonsense. People love some hyperbole, and United fans are such easy targets right now. Huge sections of the fan base are frothing at the mouth, ready to get the pitchforks out, so winding them up with doom mongering and claims of chaos is just too easy. Too many clicks to be had. The press equivalent of a tap in.

Reminds me of about three years ago when there were all these articles saying how bad the academy was and how far behind it had slipped versus all of our rivals, especially City. Previous United players sending their kids to City’s academy because ours was so terrible. No actual content on the quality of coaching, all just smoke and mirrors based around shiny new facilities. Three years later United continue to churn out class players from the academy, and are clearly the top big club in England when it comes to youth development. Especially when you factor in pathways to the first team. If it hadn’t been for factors out of our control, we could have a front three (Rashford, Garnacho and Greenwood) of top players from our academy starting for the first team. And what other big club can say that? None.

People need to massively chill out and let this summer play out. The media is feeding off the fear caused by decades of incompetence and indifference by the Glazers. It’s simply impossible at this early stage to know (a) what the Ineos regime is doing behind the scenes, and (b) how the trajectory of the club will change under their stewardship. This is something to be measured in years, not days or weeks.

I’m very relaxed at this point. They’ve already appointed a lot of top people. They are clearly doing extensive analysis and due diligence on the manager position. And it’s not like we are currently without a manager. We have one that the majority of the fan base apparently want to keep (however misguided that sentiment is), and who is currently on holiday. There’s not a lot of transfer business happening in the lead up to the Euros. Hardly anyone has done anything yet. So this is the perfect time to do all this analysis and due diligence. I am quite sure that targets have already been sounded out, agents spoken to, and the work of offloading players and working on the budgets and organisational structure is ongoing.

Nothing is going to be solved in one summer. The Glazers have made such a mess of this, it’s going to take 2-3 years to get us to a stable, sustainably competitive position - barring miracles from the anointed coach. And that’s exactly how we should be looking at this. Not so much where we are at the end of the season, but more where we are in 3 years. Are we on a solid upward trajectory? Has the squad been adequately retooled with players that fit a consistent playing philosophy, to the point where we don’t need massive turnover every year? Has training and medical infrastructure improved? Are we on a concrete path to a new or redeveloped stadium? Is the club consistently profitable to the point where it can reinvest significantly in the playing squad and future capital improvement projects? Are fan groups being consistently engaged and listened to, and being made a part of a community based approach to local regeneration? Are we continuing to embrace, and improve, our youth development record and pathway to the first team? Have we managed to reignite growth in the commercial department as a key cog of profitability? Etc etc.

The modernisation and reorganisation of the club is a massive project that will take time, patience, and facing a lot of difficult decisions. It’s so much bigger than rushing to placate fans with rapid decisions, or bringing in some marquee players for a short term uptick. It’s about reigniting this club and rebuilding the foundations, which have rotted out beneath our feet. It’s a massive job. So all the nervousness and judgement from certain sections of our fans, and all the gleeful hyperbole and mockery from select sections of the media, are essentially meaningless to those who really understand what needs to be done.

What I have seen so far is a regime that has brought in several of the most coveted football experts in the world. Ashworth, a man universally lauded for his work in the industry, Berrada, one if the most highly rated executives in the football world, Wilcox, another highly rated executive talent, one who turned downed Liverpool to come to us. Blanc, as a temporary CEO, and having a permanent seat on the board, as a man of huge experience and repute in European football. A French David Gill. We’ve poached top medical people from Arsenal. There’s actual movement on the stadium with some heavy football, finance, sport, and political figures involved, with work ongoing to secure public funding or tax breaks. There is a huge sweeping review of operations which is already creating organisationally wide changes.

There is so much evidence to suggest that Ineos is going about things in a deliberate, informed, decisive and expert way, and yet people are derailed so easily by a two week wait to know the fate of the manager. I suspect the bed wetters right now are the same people who will laud a young player for being a massive talent one week, only to call him absolute shit a few weeks or months later. And I don’t suppose there is much one can do about people who think like that. Must be stressful. For them. For the rest of us, those who don’t like to live in a constant vortex of drama, gossip, hyperbole, extremes, conspiracy and vitriol, the early signs are positive and we need to let it play out over an extended period of time before coming to any serious judgement.

For context, in 2017 I was appointed CEO of a small to medium sized business with 150 employees. The previous CEO had virtually bankrupted the company, the public image was shot, debts had piled up, and the organisational culture was toxic. It took me two years to turn that company around, to the point where it was profitable again, debts were cleared, we had a positive public image, and it was a desirable place to work again. Two years, and this was a small, tiny company by comparison, with not even 5% of the complexity of a massive club like United. That first year especially, I was haunted by the litany of terrible decisions made my by predecesor, and had to own many of them as the consequences of his decisions often weren’t felt for several months after he had been relieved of command. That was at least 18 months of abuse from people, people angry about what came before and that change wasn’t happening fast enough, and then other people angry about any change happening at all. “What do you mean I have to come to work on time???” These were the same people who two years later were lapping up the success and pretending to have been a key supporter and influencer in the change initiative all along.

People are predictable, and largely quite stupid. People want change immediately, but they also complain about most of the changes. One thing they definitely don’t want you to do is think about your changes, and take time to plan them out and do them properly. That’s just indecisive and dithering, until it isn’t and all the thoughtful hard work starts to pay off, and then they were a crucial part of it all along.

This is absolutely bang on and how I feel about it too. The only concern is the reaction of Nice players and fans to the INEOS ownership suggesting that they're not as competent as they led people to believe. They could be your usual private equity idiots who take over a business, bring their people in to leadership positions, change stuff just to takeover political control of the entire organization, run things horribly inefficiently and bankrupt the business / sell to the next guy.

 

[RedRover]

Well The Athletic have so far been fairly spot on about what's going on. So unless you blindly believe Ineos can do no wrong and thus refute all reports that might suggest otherwise, we do know, at least some, of what's going on. Ie approaching very different styles of managers.
I am sure you understand why that undermines Ten Hags position.

I don't "blindly" believe anything. Rumours of the club meeting other managers may just be rumours, or they may be true, but so what? Any sensible club undertaking a review of the managers position should be doing that, and for all you know they might have been very clear with Ten Hag about it. Clubs rarely sack a manager without considering who's next in.

Ten Hag has undermined his own position by turning in a poor season. He could resign if he wanted, but clearly he both thinks has a chance of staying on, and wants to if he can, so fair play to him for getting on with it.

The club are considering whether he keeps his job - the fans know it, the press know it and Ten Hag knows it. The players also obviously know it because it's obvious.

The club are, in my view quite rightly, reviewing what to do next given the managers performance, because standards should be high. It's been no time at all since the season finished. They're making no comment and the rest is just speculation.

 

[simonhch]

This is absolutely bang on and how I feel about it too. The only concern is the reaction of Nice players and fans to the INEOS ownership suggesting that they're not as competent as they led people to believe. They could be your usual private equity idiots who take over a business, bring their people in to leadership positions, change stuff just to takeover political control of the entire organization, run things horribly inefficiently and bankrupt the business / sell to the next guy.

I don’t have a deep grasp on the inner workings of Nice. I will say that I read very positive comments from Todibo about them, and I read Ratcliffe saying that they’d made a lot of mistakes at Lusuanne and Nice and they had learned from them. People are going to make mistakes, but I think that’s okay as long as you take accountability for them and learn from them. They claim to have done both, but time will tell if they repeat their mistakes.

 

[Lyng]

I don't "blindly" believe anything. Rumours of the club meeting other managers may just be rumours, or they may be true, but so what? Any sensible club undertaking a review of the managers position should be doing that, and for all you know they might have been very clear with Ten Hag about it. Clubs rarely sack a manager without considering who's next in.

Ten Hag has undermined his own position by turning in a poor season. He could resign if he wanted, but clearly he both thinks has a chance of staying on, and wants to if he can, so fair play to him for getting on with it.

The club are considering whether he keeps his job - the fans know it, the press know it and Ten Hag knows it. The players also obviously know it because it's obvious.

The club are, in my view quite rightly, reviewing what to do next given the managers performance, because standards should be high. It's been no time at all since the season finished. They're making no comment and the rest is just speculation.

Waiting till after the last match of the season to begin is bad. There is no due dilligence angle to spin this. Its bad and smells like Jim and Brailsford at Nice.
As I said, the sooner we get Ashword, and him Berrada and Wilcox start runing things without the interference of Jim and Brailsford the better.

 

[Marcelinho87]

So you don't believe Ratcliffe met Tuchel, for example?

Without pictures it's just the words of journalists BUT if he did, so what? Could have met to discuss the local cuisine, who knows.

 

[El-Manos]

Not a great start by them… I’m hoping it’s because the nesly appointed senior staff aren’t officially in charge yet?

 

[glazed]

Without pictures it's just the words of journalists BUT if he did, so what? Could have met to discuss the local cuisine, who knows.

Oh come on do you actually believe that? It's fekkin obvious that ETH is about to be shown the door if they can find a respectable replacement. Even he's saying he's "realistic" about it.

The problem is going to be finding someone who will come to this reputation graveyard to coach a Frankenstein squad with a crap transfer budget.

 

[red_de_pologne]

positive summer, just no transfers


everyone could see that coming, not being able to secure a sporting director in time for a crucial transfer window is major feck up

 

[Marcelinho87]

Oh come on do you actually believe that? It's fekkin obvious that ETH is about to be shown the door if they can find a respectable replacement. Even he's saying he's "realistic" about it.

The problem is going to be finding someone who will come to this reputation graveyard to coach a Frankenstein squad with a crap transfer budget.

My point is it doesn't matter what I believe neither of us have facts, it's all guesswork from scrambling so called journos.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

This is a very sensible or should I say funkadelic point. I too would worry if Sir Jim, Sir Dave and The Blanc Knight take these decisions (style of football going forward, profile of players to match, choice of manager to match). Fair they can make decisions on stadium build policy and stuff that belongs to that particular boardroom discussions, but I’d rather wait until Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox (and a new HoR?) get their cards sorted sufficiently to make coherent decisions about the football stuff from a coherent strategy that they’ve also made.

But this is what I think is happening.

If we were during Woodward reign, we would have sacked ETH bought, some Dybala and given Bruno and maguire new contracts to protect their value.

People need to chill out, people are expecting absolute cut throat decisions on a 600M income generating business is abit misguided.

Ratcliffe, Brailsford, Blanc have exercised extreme restrain in how they have conducted themselves, which is absolutely different from other regimes.
Is it too slow, yes, to how we were used to.
Is everything written on blogs, true about how Ineos conducts itself.. Absolutely no.

We need to see out the coming months, then we will be absolutely perfect.

Just for perspective


Compare Ineos handling vs Chelsea new owners handling..
Ineos have been very restrained while Chelsea owners have been all over the place.

 

[glazed]

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/sto...ed-unlikely-hire-tuchel-ten-hag-exits-sources

However, sources have told ESPN that Tuchel is no longer in the running to replace Ten Hag if there is a vacancy at Old Trafford.

There are concerns he is not the right fit for United's new structure and, according to a source, incoming sporting director Dan Ashworth wants a "yes" manager rather than someone to challenge the recruitment department over the make-up of the squad.

See this is the problem right here. Getting a very successful yes man is not that easy.

 

[glazed]

My point is it doesn't matter what I believe neither of us have facts, it's all guesswork from scrambling so called journos.

The journalists will likely be right. It's an issue that goes outside the club so it can't really be kept secret. It's fairly obvious that they're looking for a replacement but are struggling to find one who is both talented and house trained.

 

[red_de_pologne]

See this is the problem right here. Getting a very successful yes man is not that easy.

a role for Southgate, a selector, much like when managing a national team he will only pick from a pool of available players

 

[Marcelinho87]

a role for Southgate, a selector, much like when managing a national team he will only pick from a pool of available players

Poch aswell I feel would happily take that type of role.

 

[glazed]

Poch aswell I feel would happily take that type of role.

Poch is a decent modern coach. Southgate is pretty basic as far as I can tell.