Contact lost with Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 | 8th March 2014

golden_blunder

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some pictures of unidentified debris on the ocean now coming through. Not looking good.

whats strange to me is that one of the chinese relatives phoned the mobile of a passenger and connected. No-one answered. Weird that it connected.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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^ Yeah i just saw that, as well as this speculation:

Investigators in Malaysia say that the lack of debris from the disappeared Kuala Lumpur to Beijing flight could indicate it "disintegrated" in mid air.

"The fact that we are unable to find any debris so far appears to indicate that the aircraft is likely to have disintegrated at around 35,000 feet," a source, who is involved in the investigations in Malaysia, told Reuters.

Asked about the possibility of an explosion, such as a bomb, the source said there was no evidence yet of foul play and that the aircraft could have broken up due to mechanical issues.

But David Learmount, operations and safety editor for Flight International, said he would be very surprised if the authorities knew for sure that the plane "disintegrated" in mid air.

He added that it was not unusual to fail to find debris immediately after a crash, pointing out that it took time to find the evidence and uncover the facts.

"We just have to accept that, for the moment, we do not know what has happened," he said.

"It's also worth remembering that it took two days for any wreckage from the Air France crash in June 2009 to be found – and two years for the full operation to be completed."


What was initially believed to be a piece of debris of the missing Malaysia Airlines plane (EPA)

In a further development - initially deemed to be significant - Vietnamese authorities said a military plane had spotted at sea an object suspected to be part of the missing airliner. But less than an hour after the statement was made, Vietnam said the objects had turned out to be nothing to do with the plane.

The crew of the DHC-6 plane saw the debris, some 60 miles south-south west of Tho Chu islands, but could not see any marks or identifiable signs.

Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, director general of Malaysia's department of civil aviation, said that the debris was not from the plane.

"In the meantime, we are still verifying if the oil slick it matches the MAS Boeing 777-200 with relevant authorities," he said.

He added that the search radius has also been expanded from 20 nautical miles to 50 nautical miles.

"At present, we have 34 aircraft and 40 ships currently combing the search and rescue areas," he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...crash-as-Vietnam-denies-finding-wreckage.html
 
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Nick 0208 Ldn

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whats strange to me is that one of the chinese relatives phoned the mobile of a passenger and connected. No-one answered. Weird that it connected.
Floating in a bag which separated from the aircraft somehow or a large enough chunk is sitting on a small island perhaps? Maybe they can use the signal to refien the search pattern a little.
 

x42bn6

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So there's no illegal workers everywhere else?
Bloody hell, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Malaysia having illegal workers doesn't imply nobody else does.

Especially since you're talking inbound. There's plenty of foreigners and refugees here but saying Malaysia is a human trafficking hub? Well, that's just bullcrap. Especially since the country that you're comparing to is Thailand.
I haven't compared Malaysia to any other country.

Malaysia does have serious human trafficking concerns. Nearly 2m undocumented foreign workers (that they know of), rubbish maritime border control (mostly for East Malaysia - you remember that Sulu invasion, no?), lax and corrupt enforcement, surrounded by oceans - why is it any surprise Malaysia has issues with human trafficking?

I'm not the one making these assertions. NGOs are. Here's one from the UNHCR: http://www.refworld.org/docid/51c2f3a7c.html

If you want to compare countries, speaking of Thailand, the US grades countries by "tier" for human trafficking, depending on how well they do. Tier 1 is reserved for the best countries, while Tier 3 is reserved for the most-backwards nations on Earth. Malaysia and Thailand are in the same tier - tier 2 watch list - which risks a downgrade to tier 3 if things don't improve.

A lot of people using Malaysia via transit? Heathrow is the busiest airport in the world, so is it a human trafficking hub?
Heathrow is of course used for human trafficking, but it's not just about the numbers using planes. Malaysia has a significant number arriving by sea and from the border with Thailand. It also happens to treat them particularly badly, compared with the UK.
 

air_mood

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Bloody hell, how did you arrive at that conclusion? Malaysia having illegal workers doesn't imply nobody else does.


I haven't compared Malaysia to any other country.

Malaysia does have serious human trafficking concerns. Nearly 2m undocumented foreign workers (that they know of), rubbish maritime border control (mostly for East Malaysia - you remember that Sulu invasion, no?), lax and corrupt enforcement, surrounded by oceans - why is it any surprise Malaysia has issues with human trafficking?

I'm not the one making these assertions. NGOs are. Here's one from the UNHCR: http://www.refworld.org/docid/51c2f3a7c.html

If you want to compare countries, speaking of Thailand, the US grades countries by "tier" for human trafficking, depending on how well they do. Tier 1 is reserved for the best countries, while Tier 3 is reserved for the most-backwards nations on Earth. Malaysia and Thailand are in the same tier - tier 2 watch list - which risks a downgrade to tier 3 if things don't improve.


Heathrow is of course used for human trafficking, but it's not just about the numbers using planes. Malaysia has a significant number arriving by sea and from the border with Thailand. It also happens to treat them particularly badly, compared with the UK.
Every country has a significant number arriving by sea, air or land, the US being the best example. And Malaysia has a whole lot refugees here as well. Bosnians, Rohingyas etc. That Sulu thingy was a one off incident. Can happen anywhere else IMO. So kind of bull to use that as a yardstick.

Why I used Thailand was because you mentioned earlier that Thailand has stringent immigration rules and less corrupt police force, which is kinda bull considering all the immigrants from it's neighboring countries i.e. Myanmar, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia etc. Using Thailand as a point of comparison was a non starter in the 1st place considering how bad the country is in terms of trafficking, especially in regards to sex workers for example.

Anyways, I don't want to be derailing the thread. So just take it as we agree to disagree.
 

Red Dreams

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I understand their passport checks...outgoing is less stringent then those coming in. Also there is a political motivation for allowing so many Muslim foreigners into the country...like Bangladeshis and Indonesians...so they can outvote the Non Muslims.
 

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Simon Calder [renowned British travel journalist] was on the BBC earlier explaining how uncoordinated passport tracking is globally, a passport of his was stolen for criminal purposes more than a decade ago and he still gets interrogated upon ever visit to the States. You'd think that an organisation like INTERPOL could oversee an integrated database.
 
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Justin

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Simon Calder [renowned British travel journalist] was on the BBC earlier explaining how uncoordinated passport tracking is globally, a passport of his was stolen for criminal purposes more than a decade ago and he still gets interrogated upon ever visit to the States. You'd think that an organisation like INTERPOL could oversee an integrated database.
They do have a comprehensive database and they know about the stolen passports. But if countries don't use that information, it's not like Interpol can force them.
 

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surely if they can connect to a mobile, they can use that to at least find the phone.
either way I doubt they will find any good news now.
 

x42bn6

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5:30P.M in Vietnam: Traffic and Transportation Department just sent out a communiqué saying that at 5:07P.M (also Vietnamese hour, +7 GMT), according to an annoucement from Hong Kong Air Traffic Control, pilots of a plane on route L642 reported to the Long Distances Control Centre of Hong Kong (Sorry, I'm translating it straight from Vietnamese) that they were seeing some large pieces of metal on the sea surface at coordinates 09043’ North - 107025’ East, 60 kilometers from Vung Tau beach in Ba Ria Vung Tau province, Vietnam.
Translated from: http://www.tienphong.vn/xa-hoi/truc-tiep-xac-minh-thong-tin-nhieu-manh-vo-gan-vung-tau-684926.tpo

Via theallenjohan on Reddit.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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Youtube. Search it by the name "Air France 447 Disaster". You will get it in the first couple of videos. About 45 odd minutes in length.
I just took a look myself, though informative it has its uncomfortable moments, as a bit like with the series on National Geographic [at least the Air Accident Investigation one is on that channel in the UK] you almost can't help but put yourself in that situation.

The degradation of pilots' natural flying ability in the face of increase3d technical assistance really ought to have been foreseen by the industry. You can also argue that argue that Air France should have instigated stricter procedures in response to storm activity, particularly in light of equipment failures.

However so far as we are aware the weather wasn't a factor in the case of this 777, nor was a key part of the aircraft facing replacement in the near future.


Any idea how far that is from where the search has been taking place thus far? Presumably with nightfall fast approaching any further investigations may have to wait until tomorrow.
 
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x42bn6

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Any idea how far that is from where the search has been taking place thus far? Presumably with nightfall fast approaching any further investigations may have to wait until tomorrow.
It's quite far - it's basically next to Ho Chi Minh City.

I couldn't figure out how to find out where those coordinates are on something like Google Maps.
 

x42bn6

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I believe this is in Malay, but there is a press conference going on now: http://english.astroawani.com/videos/live

I'm going to translate some of the more interesting headlines in a second...

[edit]

- China is only helping, not coordinating the search [this is probably in response to China getting annoyed with Malaysia's perceived slowness]
- New Zealand and China contributing more specialist ships to the search
- The media will receive CCTV footage of the suspects
- It is suspected that they will have more information very soon

I also found this from Reddit (user smellymelly14): "On 2 stolen passengers, CCTV confirms all security protocols complied with by airport securities."
 
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adexkola

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It must have been a powerful explosion that would leave no debris. Eating up the fuselage, black box, engine... Very strange.

My guess is an electrical storm that cut off all communication, and an incompetent search team.
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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It's quite far - it's basically next to Ho Chi Minh City.

I couldn't figure out how to find out where those coordinates are on something like Google Maps.
I see, and then the searchers have to allow for three days worth of drift assuming that this is indeed related.


I believe this is in Malay, but there is a press conference now: http://english.astroawani.com/videos/live

I'm going to translate some of the more interesting headlines in a second...
Our Far East correspondent. :)
 

swooshboy

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So it appears that the oil from those two lareg oil slicks was not from the plane:

Maritime Enforcement Agency spokeswoman Faridah Shuib told AFP that chemical tests had shown the oil was used in shipping, not aviation.
Given the fact that the sightings of potential debris have been ruled out as being from the plane, then it looks as though there is still sign of the plane.

The US have said that had there been an explosion, then it would probably have been picked up by satellites.

One suggestion has been a catastrophic mechanical fault that led to the break up of the plane at 35,000 feet - although very strange that there was no mayday/messages from the plane.
 

JustAFan

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It must have been a powerful explosion that would leave no debris. Eating up the fuselage, black box, engine... Very strange.

My guess is an electrical storm that cut off all communication, and an incompetent search team.

Yeah it would probably have to be a pretty decent sized bomb (explosive power wise) or it set off the fuel also. I would not assume it at up the black box, it is just a matter of it not being found right now.
 

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The holders of these passports could simply be transiting through China to reach the EU as economic migrants, it's a common route apparently.
 

coolredwine

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I just took a look myself, though informative it has its uncomfortable moments, as a bit like with the series on Nati8onal Geographic [at least the Air Accident Investigation one is on that channel in the UK] you almost can't help but put yourself in that situation.

The degradation of pilots' natural flying ability in the face of increase3d technical assistance really ought to have been foreseen by the industry. You can also argue that argue that Air France should have instigated stricter procedures in response to storm activity, particularly in light of equipment failures.

However so far as we are aware the weather wasn't a factor in the case of this 777, nor was a key part of the aircraft facing replacement in the near future
That was caused by a blocked pitot tube wasn't it? Supposedly the Boeing 777 has systems to negate airspeed errors due to a blocked pitot tube.
Yup. What I was implying was this plane could have had an unknown failure which resulted in the crash. The sudden disappearance from the radar, no distress signal, no communication sort of indicates to that only. What's more surprising is that in this day and age, we still can't find any debris or part of the plane.

Also, just read that the oil slicks aren't from the plane.
 

coolredwine

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Yeah it would probably have to be a pretty decent sized bomb (explosive power wise) or it set off the fuel also. I would not assume it at up the black box, it is just a matter of it not being found right now.
How far was the plane's last known location from land? I refuse to believe it was a bomb.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Yup. What I was implying was this plane could have had an unknown failure which resulted in the crash. The sudden disappearance from the radar, no distress signal, no communication sort of indicates to that only. What's more surprising is that in this day and age, we still can't find any debris or part of the plane.

Also, just read that the oil slicks aren't from the plane.
To be fair, most crashes are caused by unknown failures. It's why they are so intensely investigated.

And you're correct in refusing to believe it was a bomb. Bomb incidents are rare in aviation crashes.
 

Dr. Dwayne

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Is it possible that this plane was hijacked, had its radars or tracking signals switched off, and is sitting parked in the middle of Siberia or some other remote place?
Anything is possible until the plane or some of it is found. I don't know if the radar and tracking can be turned off, though.
 

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No they can't (Reddit says so) - the transponders are redundant and cannot be turned off
 

Nick 0208 Ldn

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That was caused by a blocked pitot tube wasn't it? Supposedly the Boeing 777 has systems to negate airspeed errors due to a blocked pitot tube.
Going by that documentary there would appear to have been a range of contributing causes, decisions that a person might justify in isolation yet when combined...

The pitot tubes of Air France's fleet were in the middle of being replaced at the time following reported faults with the equipment, they elected to do this whilst continuing to operate the existing tech though.
 

coolredwine

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To be fair, most crashes are caused by unknown failures. It's why they are so intensely investigated.
Yup. But if something (anything) goes wrong, pilots do usually notify the ATC (barring the AF one of course).

Watching the AF documentary gave me a chill though. I remember when I was travelling to Dubai back in August. Just after crossing Mumbai and entering the Arabian Sea, we hit an area of severe turbulence, and the pilot flew full throttle (we reached Dubai an hour earlier than the scheduled time). :(
 

JustAFan

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How far was the plane's last known location from land? I refuse to believe it was a bomb.

Not sure and of course any talk of it being a bomb is pure speculation. Alternatives include some kind of mechanical failure. Pilot error. Some sort of freak weather condition. Possible hijacking. And probably anything else we can think of until such time as they find some actual evidence of what happened.
 

coolredwine

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Not sure and of course any talk of it being a bomb is pure speculation. Alternatives include some kind of mechanical failure. Pilot error. Some sort of freak weather condition. Possible hijacking. And probably anything else we can think of until such time as they find some actual evidence of what happened.
No one has talked about an Alien attack yet though.

Anyway, had it been a bomb, I am sure someone would have had seen it in the sky or something like that. Or heard something.
 

JustAFan

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No one has talked about an Alien attack yet though.

Anyway, had it been a bomb, I am sure someone would have had seen it in the sky or something like that. Or heard something.

Well I almost mentioned Aliens but thought it would be in poor taste. As far as anyone seeing anything, depends on where any event took place, there may not have been any witnesses except those on board.