I suggest you reflect on what you said, that denying that he did anything wrong causes the problem and the divide. The problem is, among other things, that the cops are murdering people. What causes the police to murder people?
Cop in America doing a bad job, again
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You’re claiming that not apportioning some of the blame to the victim is part of the problem. I have no idea what you mean by that
If there wasn't something in every single one of these events that the victim did that contributed to them dying or being wounded then you would have police genuinely gunning down people for no reason at all.
In this instance why didn't they shoot him dead whilst he was facing them in front of the car? We know they're poorly trained, we know they're scared shitless, we know they're racist, we know they've been hammered with propaganda, we know there are protests going on, we know that everything they do now is filmed and uploaded to social media in an instant and rightly so because it captures what happened so why didn't they just shoot him for the hell of it? What happened to cause the shooting in this instance?
It flies in the face of right and wrong because the only wrong is the officers pulling the trigger but how did it get to that stage?
I mean, if you go all in on denying that there was a catalyst for the trigger being pulled unique to this event beyond the factors mentioned above then you're saying they're gunning people down with absolutely no causality and we all know that isn't the case.
That's why there's a 'but'. There are shades of grey in everything. We accept the training, racism, power trip, scared reasons but what else is there because he didn't just get shot straight away?
Reports are that he solved a domestic conflict/broke up a fight. Police who responded to it and tried to arrest the guy, who apparently wasn't having any of it. The details of what happened between the police arriving and what's covered by the clip is scarce, but there was reportedly a brief scuffle and a taser that didn't have the desired effect.
That being said, it's fair to assume that the police arrived, saw a black guy and immediately pegged him as the suspect and wanted to bring him into custody.
As for your argument; it's disgusting and completely devoid of any humanity. Going "he didn't deserved to get shot, but what did he expect?" contributes to the normalisation of police killing civilians over the slightest transgression. Some dude gets angry and yells at them, police gets scared and kill him. Some other guy struggles as they try to put cuffs on him, so they shoot him in the back. A police officer thinks he saw a guy reaching for his waistband, so he dumps a mag at him. A guy informs police that he has a legally owned gun, so they kill him where he's sitting, in the passenger seat of his girlfriend's car.
The point is, they always have 'reasons', but they're often shit reasons. Where do you draw the line? At what point can the victim claim to have done nothing to warrant getting shot?
This idea that victims have to assume some blame when police decides to shoot them for tenuous reasons needs to die.
@Halftrack that's where we're at though. Black people in the US have the option of absolutely completely comply 1000000% and maybe they survive without being bullet ridden or they do what this guy did and they don't. That's how razor thin it is.
At no point during this do you see me suggesting this is morally right, that the victim deserved to get shot, advocating for the police or saying anything they did is even remotely justified but if you say he did absolutely nothing wrong (and I mean, in terms of right = not getting shot, wrong = getting shot) then you ignore that he DID walk to his car which set it in motion (and there was always choice to every party from that point on), otherwise they'd have just shot him when they got to him because they shoot black people, no?
It's completely devoid of humanity because the cops are completely devoid of humanity. Expecting them to show some got this guy shot, It's completely and utterly fecked.
At no point during this do you see me suggesting this is morally right, that the victim deserved to get shot, advocating for the police or saying anything they did is even remotely justified but if you say he did absolutely nothing wrong (and I mean, in terms of right = not getting shot, wrong = getting shot) then you ignore that he DID walk to his car which set it in motion (and there was always choice to every party from that point on), otherwise they'd have just shot him when they got to him because they shoot black people, no?
It's completely devoid of humanity because the cops are completely devoid of humanity. Expecting them to show some got this guy shot, It's completely and utterly fecked.
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Why are you so hung up on apportioning him some of the blame? The issue here isn't police taking action against him for noncompliance, it's that they allowed him to walk to his car without stopping him, then shot him seven times in the back when he got there.
Because they didn’t just shoot him.
Something had to happen for them to shoot him.
What happened? He got to his car and reached in and then they shot him. That implies that he did something. Like I said before, did he magically move from where he was to where he got shot or did he walk there?
It’s not his fault, but he did something to contribute towards this beyond just being black. Otherwise he’d have been shot there and then for being black.
Insulting another member
In the clusterfeck of a Maguire thread in the Football Forum, the last story is that some Albanian gangster hit on his sister, she rejected him and he then stabbed her with a metal straw. I have no idea if this is fact or fiction, but lets go with it. I'm sure you agree that if she had just slept with the guy, even though she didn't want to, she wouldn't have gotten stabbed with a metal straw. After all, he didn't go around stabbing everyone with a metal straw, and she wasn't a random victim. Something happened, there was a catalyst there. What do you do with this information?
In 2009, Chris Brown beat Rihanna to a pulp. They were in a relationship, and they were arguing. If she wasn't taking part in an argument with Chris Brown, or if she didn't agree to be in a relationship with Chris Brown at all, Chris Brown wouldn't have beaten her. He didn't go around beating random people for random things, something happened. What do you do with this information?
In 2017, in Charlottesville, Virginia, during the Unite the Right rally, the white supremacist James Fields killed Heather Heyer and injured several others with his car in a terrorist attack. He didn't drive around the US running over random people. If Heather Heyer didn't attend the counter protest, or if she was a nazi, James Field wouldn't have murdered her. What do you do with this information?
Does it matter? They opted not to stop him while he was walking there, then shot him when he got there. It doesn't fecking matter what he did, they could have detained him without having to resort to lethal force, but didn't. Instead they waited until he got to his car, then shot him, no doubt for some tenuous reason, like "he could have used the car as a weapon" or "he could have had a gun in there".
You're coming off as an asshole here, all because you think the he must have done something to provoke it, ipso factum he deserved it, but not really, but it was his own fault, but it was wrong, but the police must have had as reason.
To be shot in the back ?
This thread is like the twix bar of getting pissed off. First you watch a video and your blood just boils, then you read people with their "yeah but..." and you just want to punch someone.
What’s that got to do with a twix
Putting words into my mouth saying they deserved it. At no point have I suggested he deserved to get shot, similarly with the above scenarios, of @NotThatSoph 1 - Maguire's sister didn't deserve it, Rihanna didn't deserve it, Heather Heyer didn't deserve it, but those are moral judgements.
This is cold hard truth. For as much as we say victim shaming/victim blaming is wrong (and it is), there's no conceivable way that it's 100% possible that any party in an event didn't do anything. Not 'anything wrong' but 'anything'.
As @NotThatSoph surmises, if Harry Maguire's sister isn't anywhere near that Albanian then no, she doesn't stabbed with a straw and no Harry doesn't get into a fight. It might've happened a different way but causality means that events leading up to it conspired for that to happen.
Rihanna doesn't enter into an argument with Chris Brown then no, he doesn't beat her up. Maybe he beats her up another time but not in that instance.
Heather Heyer doesn't go to the Charlottesville protest, she doesn't die. Maybe the driver kills someone else but not her.
By the same token, the Albanian bloke has the choice not to hit on her, he has the choice not to stab her with a straw and the choice not to start a fight with Harry Maguire over it.
Chris Brown has the choice not to hit Rihanna
The guy who ran down Heather Heyer has the choice not to do so.
For this event, the police have the choice not to shoot him at any point, but that choice is directly influenced by the actions of the guy who ended up getting shot. It's not his fault that he decided to walk back to his car and reach into it, thereby increasing the chances that the police think perhaps he's reaching in for a weapon, perhaps he's gonna dive in the car and hit the accelerator, perhaps ANYTHING, but the fact of the matter remains that he DID walk back to his car and he DID reach into it.
We can white knight our way through this and never, ever in a million years suggest the victim did anything at all.
Or we look at reality unfolding and say 'yep, he died because he went to his car and leaned in, the officers assumed completely incorrectly or perhaps completely automatically about what would happen next and shot him repeatedly in cold blood at close range and it's fecking terrible all round'
I'm coming across as an asshole and you know what? I'm fine with it. I'm fully in agreement that he didn't deserve to die, I've stated as such. I'm fully in agreement that American policing is fecking terrible and racism is rife in every level of society but I'm not blind to the situation. He didn't get shot just standing there so both he and the police did something that set in motion the shooting,
There are always choices and always causes. If you make the wrong choice at the wrong time then your number might come up, unfortunately in this instance, EVERYONE made the wrong choice and it caused a terrible event to unfold
An old tv ad for twix here in Portugal said "twix is twice this, twice that" because of the wo bars, or something like that. It kinda stuck as an expression here in Portugal, when something does two things, it's the twix of that thing.What’s that got to do with a twix
Now that I think about it probably not the best expression to use in an international forum.
How do those police boots taste?
This thread is exhausting. It really is. I genuinely thought after all that happened recently when things like this happen and are clearly documented, we would be past the point of “Yeah but x y z, the police aren’t entirely to blame for being murderous and trigger happy.” Evidently not.
One last try, because this is insane.
Jimmy Savile raped tens of little girls and assaulted hundreds. There are always choices and there are always causes.
Go ahead, you're up.
Literally in response to you:
He refused to be taken into custody, that was his crime.
Wow.
So. Is that refusal not then his own action that he takes responsibility for?
That refusal doesn't mean that he deserves to get shot but it changes what happens after it doesn't it?
There would absolutely be causes and choices linked to that happening, why wouldn't there be? It didn't just happen? Or do you believe he was born to be a rapist and the victims were born to be raped by Jimmy Saville?
Is it all predetermined or do factors conspire to influence choice at any given time?
What’s the backstory to this? I have to admit, it was invigorating for about five seconds watching that cop run away from the suspect he just tased.
I give up.
You can refuse all you want. The punishment for refusing obeying the police is not death.
You are talking shit.
I never said it was.
I'm saying that by refusing it changes what happened afterwards compared to not refusing. How people can't understand that the guy made a choice and that then influenced every other choice made after that I don't know.
Making a choice doesn't imply or impart blame, it just means he made a choice.
Sadly, making a choice in America, as a black man, to not comply with the police results very often in death. Like I said, it's so razor thin it's fecked.
Again, literally in reply to you:
Do you even read the replies, or does that get in the way of you tediously arguing that the guy who got shot SEVEN TIMES IN THE BACK must have provoked it?
I have training in deescalation, detention and the use of force continuum. No amount of technicalities will ever absolve the police of a single percentage of blame for this shooting, it's ALL on them.
I watched it again to see if I was missing something.
Whilst he has two officers with a gun draw screaming at him right behind him, he carries on walking to his car calm as anything
Is the guy deaf now?
Has he not heard a peep from them and not decided, you know what, I'm probably best not carrying on just in case?
They're right behind him, almost within touching distance issuing orders, surely he must've heard them enough to turn around?
Again, it doesn't absolve the police of any hint of responsibility for this but I can understand how it happened. Seemingly you can't?
If you're right behind a guy barking orders with your gun drawn at him and he carries on like he's not arsed and then opens his car door and you're a shit scared racist police officer with absolutely no control over the situation and you're told everyone is out to get you cause you're a cop constantly then you're gonna be trigger happy as feck. I wouldn't want to be a cop in America anymore than I'd want to be a black guy with guns drawn on me in America, it's all fecked.
They made a choice - an ill prepared, ill trained, ill conceived. quite probably racist and awful choice but he made the choice to ignore them and go back to his car too whilst he had guns trained on him in a highly strung situation. Understand it from all sides. Everyone made the wrong choice. I stand by it.
Shooting someone in that back for not stopping when you shout stop is murder.
This Statement should not be the first thing you say when you see that video, no matter what you think about how he acted he did not deserve to die this way.
Wow America, the gift that keeps on giving.
What in the hell is wrong with that country? Aren't they all tired with these senseless murder of minorities in broad day light? Surely even the most hardened racist is tired of these incessant murders?
I think America needs to fix itself and is time the rest of the world begin to hold them accountable for their actions.
The complete disregard for human life by these retards in police uniforms is mind staggering.
What in the hell is wrong with that country? Aren't they all tired with these senseless murder of minorities in broad day light? Surely even the most hardened racist is tired of these incessant murders?
I think America needs to fix itself and is time the rest of the world begin to hold them accountable for their actions.
The complete disregard for human life by these retards in police uniforms is mind staggering.
These murderers were acquitted after giving his victim commands which are physically impossible to follow. Once thy have decided to kill your actions are irrelevant.
Mother feck he got acquitted! Can't say I'm surprised but I did have a little hope considering how garbled the instructions were.
couldn't say it better myself.
He very clearly isnt calm as anything, his whole demeanor in the way he is walking is a long way from calm as anything. He made the wrong choice to walk away from armed police officers, he was very very clearly under duress and not thinking rationally. The Police officers are supposedly professionals who are trained at working in stressful situations. They have the toolkit to deal with these sorts of situations. In all probability that guy didnt have the toolkit to deal with it because of the decision he made. He was very clearly stressed and did what many people would do under stress, make a poor decision. The Police however should have been better at the situation control and they are the ones that hold the majority of the responsibility. Trying to shift blame to this guy is an appalling judgement of the entire picture.
I've said multiple times that he was murdered (albeit, it appears he's not dead). I'm not disagreeing.
these fecking pigs are blocking every exit into kenosha
The Shaver video above... is that the cop who had some nonsense inscribed on the gun? Seem to recall that guy was itching to kill.