I had a chance to see Ronaldo in person during a trip to Italy when Juventus played Udinese. Definitely felt like you could appreciate it his movement in the box more so in person. He scored twice, and it was definitely a cool moment to have been able to watch him
Cristiano Ronaldo should go down as top 5-6 players of all time
- Thread starter Interval
- Start date
Yes, his movement is still special. On the last page somebody made fun that his touch before Chiesa's goal was labelled an assist but I think Ronaldo's run and timing was excellent, even if the contact wasn't particularly good. I think in a team like Bayern which always prays on the high through ball to the far post, he'd still be lethal. But his abilities simply aren't really utilized in Turin since there are few players able to play those kind of passes.
Anyway, for me this isn't enough to be compared to the gold standard and it wasn't enough during Madrid's consecutive CL run. In those years Cristiano delivered the numbers but he didn't deliver the overall contribution. So I think people praising him back then but criticizing him now are kind of inconsequent.
In those 9 years Maradona achieved more at international level than CR7 and Messi combined. And it was slightly more than a decade, from around 79 to around 91, that is more than enough.
As for goal tally, Maradona has around 35 for Argentina. But what you kids nowadays don't understand is that:
- Maradona was an attacking midfielder, not a forward like Messi and CR7;
- it was a million times harder to score in the 80s Serie A, especially late 80s, when a win was only worth 2 points;
- Maradona did not play for superclubs stacked with the best talent on Earth;
- Maradona played against butchers for defenders, when rules did not protect attacking players;
- Maradona played on poor pitches, with worse equipment, boots, balls, nutrition etc.
Half of Messi and CR7's goals are in friendlies and against garbage teams.
When Messi and CR7 will be able to lead average teams to titles, and win a World Cup, then you might say they are greater.
Until then, Diego reigns supreme.
Simeone played with the past prime version of Maradona and he never played with Messi, so his opinion is kinda irrelevant.
Bollocks. They wouldn't even last 1 season. Back then, top players weren't pampered and protected by the rules. Remember that for example in Pele's days, there weren't even yellow and red cards, he was mauled in 2 World Cups (62 and 66), his peak years. Maradona was also brutally fouled every match in the 80's Serie A. Messi and CR7 aren't used to such abuse, they couldn't cope, they'd get taken of the pitch on a stretcher.
Plus, even though Messi and CR7 have the ability, it's way harder for them to duplicate the things they do now on a crap pitch, with crap equipment (boots, ball, etc), worse nutrition and medical facilities. CR7 wouldn't benefit from a personal chef, physical therapist and from all the "juices" they have nowadays. Healing times after injuries would be at least double.
Pele and Maradona could be just as good, if not better. The rules protect top players nowadays and the playing conditions and equipment are great.
Most of us who are old enough to have seen past greats don't agree.
That won't make Messi and CR7 less great. Players should be judged and compared by comparing their achievements (put into context).
Messi has superior ability, therefore he is better. But CR7 is more versatile and mentally stronger, and he has achieved more, therefore he is the greater of the two.
Best would be brilliant nowadays.Best in modern day football would be the next Ravel Morrison.
Can't be a top professional.
Stupid analogy/example. Kleberson was just part of a winning team, he didn't drag teams after him and produced magical moments like Pele, Maradona, R9, etc.
Using your dumb logic, I can point out the fact that there are also countless players that have won the Champions League, some of them multiple times, it doesn't make them as great as Messi and CR7.
Nope.5-6?
Cristiano Ronaldo & Messi are by some distance the best 2 players in human history.
3 World Cup wins say it's more than possible. Plus having similar club career achievements to them.
Even if Messi and CR7 are "better" than their predecessors (which I don't agree with), they are not greater. Pele and Maradona are still the top 2 greatest ever do to their international career achievements.
1. Maradona
2. Pele
3. Cruyff
4. CR7
5. Messi
I happen to be one of those and I agree with you.
Great posts by Lay, Krakenzero, Ladron de redcafe
Sky1981, most of us on this forum (if not all) have Cristiano in the top 5, just not no. 1.
Last edited:
Achieved in 9 years greater than a combination of cr7 and messi.
Stopped reading there.
Neither won a World Cup, so he is not completely wrong on that particular point. And Maradona arguably had the worst set of teammates out of the three.
No he didn´t
What is the topic of that?
Not arguably, it's a fact that Maradona had the least amount of talent around him, hence often needed to do more. Pelé was a kid in '58 on Didi's team, and in '70 was the turbocharger, the factor that took a stacked team from historically great to greatest ever
2014-2016 argentina side was comparable to the '86-'90 one in many ways, and he couldn't quite do it, on a team that didn't rely on him as much either
There has never been a player so singularly influential in international football as Maradona, though Pelé does come really close. Beckenbauer too
Maradona had a great team in 1982, 1986 and 1994. It´s a myth that they were shite.
I didn't suggest that they were shite though.
Obviously they weren't shite. In '94 he played one game iirc
He played 2, against Greece and Nigeria.
I agree. The Argentina that Messi played with was imbalanced, but wasn't a bad team. The talent there was probably better than the 86 squad that Maradona played with. Messi gets the plaudits for this excellent play at club level, but it's also fair to point out he didn't quite achieve what Maradona did at the international level.
That isn't to say that Maradona played with a bad team. But that the team he carried to consecutive world cup finals including the 1986 win was weaker than the squads that the other top 5-6 players ever had at some points during their careers.
Maradona played from mediocre to bad in 90 WC, the team as horrid as it was, was very well coached and that carried them into the final, not Maradona despite his great play against Brasil.
He played a friendly game with both Maradona and Messi at one point, but seriously a player and manager with his pedigree who has watched both Maradoana and Messi for years is likely to have a very good idea of how good they are, and his opinion is certainly not irrelevant. He definitely knows more than any of us about it.
To be fair, CR7's team is Portugal.
And Rivaldo was as amazing as R9 in the 2002 World Cup.
All those criticisms that you mentioned that people make against Messi, CR7, Pelé, R9 and Maradona, to downplay them, are total bullshit. Brazil won 3 World Cups with only players who played in Brazil, for example. R9 never winning the UCL was a mixture of bad timing, bad luck and ankle injuries. Barcelona and Internazionale didn't play in the UCL when he was in those teams, but he did great in the UEFA Cup. And then there were ankle injuries who left him out of football for years. When he came to Real Madrid, he was still great, but not the same. And Real fell in its megalomania of hiring as many stars as possible.Let me clarify. I’m not sure if I’ve seriously posted where I put Cristiano and Messi in my all time list. They’re probably top 3, top 5 for sure.
But the problem I have with these debates is posters will downplay what the other legends did. Pele only did it in Brazil, R9 never won the UCL and did it with a star studded team, even your R9 comments, Robinho didn’t win a World Cup! Oh and comments like Maradona’s stats aren’t good enough from some posters. It’s almost as nothing existed before 2003 and if it did, it doesn’t count. It’s baffling the lengths some posters go to defend Messi and Cristiano.
Yet its simple fact that Messi and Cristiano have failed to shine at world cups, a tournament that has bonafide legacies of all the other greats minus Di Stefano and Best for differing reasons.
Why can’t people accept these criticisms without downplaying the bloody World Cup nowMessi and CR7 had perfect careers with no failures? Is that what people want to boil it down to?
If we can criticise Pele, maradona, R9, Zidane, then we can criticise Messi and Cristiano without the narrative changing to suit agendas.
Anyway, Messi's skills and consistency together are insane. I'm not sure if we'll see a player as technically brilliant as Messi in this century. Ronaldinho was flashier and more magical, but not really as technically brilliant and efficient in all technical aspects of the game, as dribbling and passing, as Messi is. Messi is truly unbelievable.
I think that's a harsh assessment. Although he didn't hit the heights of '86 - mostly due to playing on one leg with a massively swollen ankle - he was still one of the best attacking players at the tournament. For example, he was selected in the team of the tournament as the only number 10. He created a hell of a lot of chances for his team-mates and was, again, the victim of the sort of negative and tactical fouling that was routine within the game at that time. As you say Argentina were mostly solid and organised, but for doing anything going forward they relied on his flashes of genius particularly when linking up with Caniggia.
There's a pretty direct comparison to be made between Argentina '90 and '14 and Messi and Maradona in those world cups.
The sliding door for Messi has been Di Maria getting injured at the worst possible time, 3 times in a row
But even with that, he's never delivered for Argentina like Diego in '86
On the other hand he's had a better club career and his peak at club level was arguably higher than Maradona's
The sliding door for Messi has been Di Maria getting injured at the worst possible time, 3 times in a row
But even with that, he's never delivered for Argentina like Diego in '86
On the other hand he's had a better club career and his peak at club level was arguably higher than Maradona's
Amazingly half a Maradona almost guided a very poor Argentina to a third world cup.
Naahhh, believe me I would have loved Maradona carrying us to a third WC it just didn't happen cause he was not that good anymore at that point of his brilliant career.
I meant at international level. And you cannot deny that.
Great post.
And that's what elevates Maradona above Messi and CR7 in the GOAT debate.
He came into the event carrying an ankle injury. Constant fouling made it even worse, to the point that it was swollen most of the time and the Argentine staff doctors had to resort to injections in order for him to handle the pain and be able to play.
True, but nobody is saying that CR7 should have definitely won a WC, just that he should have had a WC (out of the 4 he played in) where he performed very well. CR7 isn't judged as harshly as Messi for his international career given that:
- he has had a weaker side than Messi
and
- unlike Messi, CR7 managed to actually win a major event, the Euro Cup.
Completely agree with you
It depends on what you understand by technique. For me, technique only means ball control, it doesn't encompass dribbling and passing, those are distinct categories. And in terms of ball control, I see Ronaldo Fenomeno, Ronaldinho and Maradona as being superior.
Completely agree with that.There's a pretty direct comparison to be made between Argentina '90 and '14 and Messi and Maradona in those world cups.
The sliding door for Messi has been Di Maria getting injured at the worst possible time, 3 times in a row
But even with that, he's never delivered for Argentina like Diego in '86
I still see Maradona's achievements with Napoli as more impressive than Messi's with Barcelona.
Napoli was battling relegation before Maradona came along. He turned them into champions.
Barcelona already was a world class team before Messi came along. Sure, he made them even better, but they would have won many trophies even without him.
How is this even a debate? Messi and Ronaldo are the two greatest players in the sport ever, followed by Maradona and probably Pele
There's no debate. Few people have Ronaldo in the same tier as Messi, Maradona, and Pelé and those who do tend to skew younger.
So klose is better than r9 yeah?
Why? Ronaldo Nazario lead his team to the world cup and another final, as the best player. Klose was never Germany's best player.
Argentina's 86 team is almost certainly their best ever team, I don't know where this ongoing idea comes from that Maradona carried plumbers and such. Valdano, Burruchaga and Ruggeri were in that squad, Passarella, arguably South America's best ever centre back and the Captain of the 78 WC winning squad, 5 players from the 85 and 86 Copa Libertadores winning teams, aging legend Bochini, several players that had won domestic titles within a season or two in Argentina and Mexico. The very fact that this is the only time Argentina won it outside their own territory (without the shady circumstances of 78) proves that. It doesn't detract from Maradona absolutely being the key guy in a type of single player tournament performance you've probably don't had since.
This silly argument/example has been put up by countless Messi apologists. Sometimes even CR7 apologists, although, as I already mentioned, CR7 has had a better international career than Messi, cause he actually won a major trophy with Portugal, a team that is inferior to Argentina.
Nobody's arguing that every player that has won a World Cup is greater than Messi and CR7, or that every player that has won a Champions League is greater than R9. Basically, we are not attributing greatness to players that have been in winning squads at international and/or club level, but to players that have been instrumental for their teams winning those trophies.
Klose never carried Germany. R9 put far more significant performances for Brazil than Klose for Germany. Muller and Beckenbauser are far important players for Germany than Klose will ever be.
Likewise, Maradona isn't better than Messi cause he has more goals at the World Cup or cause he has a World Cup medal, he's better cause he was able to carry his team to that World Cup glory.
No, they are not. They are still behind Maradona and Pele and won't surpass them until they win a World Cup.
No, it's not. Pit that 1986 team Maradona had against the 2014 team Messi had, with Maradona and Messi not playing, and the 2014 team wins without any problem.
And nobody said they were plumbers, just that they weren't that great of a team and that they would have never won it without Maradona.
Last edited:
2nd best player I've seen. Pointless comparing him to one's I haven't.
@Bogdannn The 2014 team was slightly disjointed, wouldn't you agree?
What do you mean by disjointed ? Please explain a bit more in detail.
As far as I'm concerned, they had great offensive players and a solid defense led by Mascherano.
You seems to move around the goalposts only when it suited you.
First its the world cup.
Then it's instrumental
Then it's single handedly carrying the team.
Do us a favor. Check the brazilian team ronaldo 9 played in. And tell me he single Handedly drag them to the title.
Go on
Funny how people keep saying Argentina had a great team in 2014, who of that great team not named Messi would you have at OT, Lavezzi? Garay? Romero? Demichelis? Rojo? Palacios? Not even Higuain
So many of your arguments are just hypotheticals with no factual reasoning behind them (modern players can't cope with 80's conditions/players, past greats would do better than current greats if they played today etc). I get that it's your opinion and that's fine, but you present them as they are facts and never say why you believe it to be true, which just makes it pointless. I could refute these claims with a 'nope' and my "argument" would be just as sound as yours.
Also, while I think most would agree that a team from 2014 would beat a team from 1986 it still doesn't say anything about how good they were in their respective time period or which is the best. So not only is it a hypothetical argument, it also does absolutely nothing to refute the claim that Argentina's team from 86' is their best ever which was the claim you were replying to.
Last edited:
It's sad that people who underrate Ronaldo forget about his dribbling years, particularly around 2005 - 2007, just because he became a better goalscorer later on. There's very few players from the past that I'd have taken over that version of Ronaldo. Just the pace, power, skill.. it was a sight to behold.
The Argentina which was toothless against the likes of Bosnia, Switzerland and Iran, and required Messi magic to win group stage was some how a great team . Stupid shit you hear. Argentina 2014 was wank offensively, if Messi wasn't involved, they didn't scored. Defensively yes they were good.
. Stupid shit you hear. Argentina 2014 was wank offensively, if Messi wasn't involved, they didn't scored. Defensively yes they were good.That 2005-2007 CR7 (Last year at United and first 2 years at Madrid) was the best version of CR7 I have seen. But that version was only for 3-4 years.
He was at United during that time. You probably mean 2009-2012? He was better for us in 07/08 than 08/09. Rooney was every bit as good as him in 08/09. Probably better actually.
You might check that again. Passarella didn't play a minute in WC 1986 and withdraw from the tournament as he had a massive row with Maradona because an armband went to Diego and not him. Bochini played just few minutes against Belgium (he couldn't play more as Diego played in his position) and Argentina went into the tournament divided into Passarella and Maradona group. Valdano for example was initially on Passarella side.
Have seen a lot of cases of trying to twist actual events and this one goes very high on that list.
That tournament was all Diego. No one in history ever played on that level.
I think its fair to say that Messi carried in the group stages, in the knockouts it was more about being very solid in defense and midfield, though Messi and Di Maria cause trouble for the opposition.The Argentina which was toothless against the likes of Bosnia, Switzerland and Iran, and required Messi magic to win group stage was some how a great team