Dalian Atkinson dies after being tasered by police

[JustAFan]

Im not saying 'Hey look the police did bad!', and won't pass judgement until we know a lot more, but we can still talk about it. This being an internet discussion board and all.

Yes but if you claim to want to wait for the investigation but then jump to a conclusion based on a report of an eyewitness who you know nothing at all about, well don't be surprised if on a discussion board the inconsistency gets pointed out. You are willing to automatically accept what she says to say it sounds like the police have a flimsy excuse, but that acceptance is based on what? What do you know about her? Does her story fit with other evidence or does it contradict it?

The full report will come out in due time, including I am sure a look into the witness statement, of which we only have what the BBC is reporting, so we do not even know if we have the full story on that yet or how reliable a witness she will turn out to be. I think it was with the Michael Brown killing that many of the eyewitnesses turned out to be very unreliable, claiming to have seen things they could not have possibly seen, including some who it turned out were blocks away. Eyewitness testimony is actually often the least reliable when it comes to determining what actually happened. In this case the witness may prove extremely reliable and be a key component in the eventual outcome or she may not.

 

[as-95]

Atkinson's Daliance with the police was short lived.

Sad to see.

 

[JustAFan]

Feel free to delete if it's deemed irrelevant but there's a great documentary on the fallacy of the taser as a non-lethal weapon if anyone wishes to seek it out. Here's the trailer:

I've mentioned in other threads where tasers are brought up as something that US cops should carry that there have been numerous deaths caused by tasers. The reasons for the deaths are varied, ranging from poor maintenance of the taser, to gross negligence in their use, to intentional misuse, to pre-existing medical conditions that the officers involved had no way of knowing about, etc etc. Some PD's have even given in to public outcry against them and stopped using them.

Same goes with those bean bag shooting shotguns, that are supposed to just knock the air out of the targeted person, well turns out they can be deadly also.

 

[starman]

One of the witnesses has claimed that the police started kicking him..

 

[RedPed]

Tbf the guy asked for it, if you spat on an officer be sure they will rough you up. Cops are just human. Now killing him / shooting him / planting evidence is a different animal, but let's not assume all cops are patrons of justice.

If you didn't broke the law and be respectful towards society the chance of foul play is minimum.

You seriously believe that?? They are supposed to respect the position they hold and rise above all that. They charge the guy for assault of a police officer and incarcerate/fine him, whatever but they certainly do NOT have any right to rough him up....as much as they would like to.

So a black police officer is going about his business and arresting some perp for some crime and subsequently gets racially abused by that person, it would be ok to visit that person in his cell later and teach him a lesson? Yeah that would really go down well wouldn't it?

And if the guy who spat on my friend had it coming, she would not have stopped her colleagues but even though she had every reason to be pissed at the guy she stopped it because she knew it was wrong....period!

 

[JustAFan]

Reading one article a witness, the witness did not know if Atkinson was under the influence of drugs or drink, but that he was very agitated and very threatening. Supposedly this witness is Atkinson's father, but we know the media sometimes gets these things wrong.

Starting to sound like there will be at least several witnesses the investigators will be able to talk to, other than the police officers involved. Hopefully that helps the truth to come out.

 

[witchtrials]

Starting to sound like there will be at least several witnesses the investigators will be able to talk to, other than the police officers involved. Hopefully that helps the truth to come out.

Let's hope so, though past experience tells us that if there was any police wrongdoing his family will face an uphill struggle for justice. The system for investigating police conduct in this country is not fit for purpose.

 

[Dobba]

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[Sky1981]

You seriously believe that?? They are supposed to respect the position they hold and rise above all that. They charge the guy for assault of a police officer and incarcerate/fine him, whatever but they certainly do NOT have any right to rough him up....as much as they would like to.

So a black police officer is going about his business and arresting some perp for some crime and subsequently gets racially abused by that person, it would be ok to visit that person in his cell later and teach him a lesson? Yeah that would really go down well wouldn't it?

And if the guy who spat on my friend had it coming, she would not have stopped her colleagues but even though she had every reason to be pissed at the guy she stopped it because she knew it was wrong....period!

What does skin color got to do with my post?

 

[Sky1981]

It amazes me that any football fan could argue this so soon after the Hillsbrough inquest verdict.

In any case, these potentially lethal weapons aren't supposed to be used on people just because they break the law or are disrespectful - they are supposed to be used in life-threatening situations. If officers use them in cases that fall short of that they ought to be held to account.

Oh ffs Hillsborough is a different debate. Don't bring it here.

Just because Hillsborough happens doesn't mean all cops are a lying murdering bastard.


Let's wait till there's more facts before going all tits up on the cops.

 

[WackyWengerWorld]

RIP

On his day - and in that particular Aston Villa side - he was a terror. Always thought he would have done well with us back in about 93. Had the pace and flair to work well in the system Ferguson used at the time. Lots of pace down the wings with Giggs, Sharpe and Kanchelskis too. Would have been a good backup/alternative to Cantona and Hughes, and a good foil for McClair whenever the other two were injured/suspended.

Sad news. RIP.

Apparently he was actually seen as a bigger talent as Yorke when they played together.

I have vague, and possibly inaccurate, memories of him from the 'Saint and Greavsie' show that used to be on. Pretty sure they had a sprint off and he was the fastest guy (or one of).

Haha happy days, in full kit and boots, never caught any of the finals myself

I have full faith in our police they acted properly. If you don't want to then it's up to you but you've obviously being American-ised in terms of thinking our police are like theres.

I'm 100% certain this guy would've done something for them to warrant the use of a taser.

Our police aren't anywhere as bad as the Americans. It's not an easy job but any death should be thoroughly investigated. No one wants bad apples in the system.

 

[witchtrials]

Oh ffs Hillsborough is a different debate. Don't bring it here.

No, it is an apt example of precisely the issue we were talking about which was whether "If you didn't broke the law and be respectful towards society the chance of foul play is minimum". Lots of people have that idea and it is totally false: the outright lies told by the police in the aftermath of the Hillsbrough disaster are a prominent case that demonstrates that it flatly wrong. I'll decide whether or not I want to bring it up thanks.

Just because Hillsborough happens doesn't mean all cops are a lying murdering bastard

No one in this thread has come remotely close to saying that.

 

[RedPed]

What does skin color got to do with my post?

Absolutely nothing. Why focus on that ? It was just an example. You said cops are only human and would react in certain situations. That was just an example of a real situation that a police officer may face where people may think he is justified in retaliating. If an officer was spat on, you would forgive that officer for retaliating. Similarly if an officer was racially abused, you would forgive the officer for retaliating would you not ? Or is that not an issue for you?

You must be a cop?

 

[Sky1981]

No, it is an apt example of precisely the issue we were talking about which was whether "If you didn't broke the law and be respectful towards society the chance of foul play is minimum". Lots of people have that idea and it is totally false: the outright lies told by the police in the aftermath of the Hillsbrough disaster are a prominent case that demonstrates that it flatly wrong. I'll decide whether or not I want to bring it up thanks.



No one in this thread has come remotely close to saying that.

You're the one mentioning Hillsborough.

Fail to see what relation it has with my op.

How is my assertion that if you dont break the law and being cooperative minimize possibility of foul play by the police? Because Hillsborough happens? Sure... Nice logic there. So what will you do if you're stopped by a cop? Oh do enlighten me

 

[Sky1981]

Absolutely nothing. Why focus on that ? It was just an example. You said cops are only human and would react in certain situations. That was just an example of a real situation that a police officer may face where people may think he is justified in retaliating. If an officer was spat on, you would forgive that officer for retaliating. Similarly if an officer was racially abused, you would forgive the officer for retaliating would you not ? Or is that not an issue for you?

You must be a cop?

Then why bringing color into it? My op has got nothing to do with race.

And where in my op i said i forgive or the cop forgive, all im saying is that if you spat on a cop you'll probably got a whopping as they're humans that doesn't act like robots. Whether that is right or wrong is a different debate.

If you're acting a twat, you will get twatted. Does the one who twats you right? Not by law he is not.

 

[RedPed]

Then why bringing color into it? My op has got nothing to do with race.

And where in my op i said i forgive or the cop forgive, all im saying is that if you spat on a cop you'll probably got a whopping as they're humans that doesn't act like robots. Whether that is right or wrong is a different debate.

If you're acting a twat, you will get twatted. Does the one who twats you right? Not by law he is not.

Oh lord, ffs, it was an example. There are black and asian police officers and they probably get more racial abuse than they get spat on. Don't get why you're dwelling on the colour thing...it's just an example.

And I repeat my original point, if a cop does get spat on it does not justify him responding by giving the person a beating. That's just going down a very dangerous road.

Your last sentence makes no sense by the way.

It will be very sad if Atkinson's death could be avoided and if there is any culpability on the part of the police officer, I hope he is dealt with accordingly. Now hearing that he wasn't wearing a camera??

 

[witchtrials]

How is my assertion that if you dont break the law and being cooperative minimize possibility of foul play by the police? Because Hillsborough happens? Sure... Nice logic there

You said:

If you didn't broke the law and be respectful towards society the chance of foul play is minimum

This quite simply isn't true - plenty of people who haven't broken the law are the victims of police misconduct, and Hillsborough is a perfect prominent example of that (Orgreave is another). The only reason you're upset about me using it is that demonstrates so clearly how wrong you are about this.

 

[Sky1981]

Oh lord, ffs, it was an example. There are black and asian police officers and they probably get more racial abuse than they get spat on. Don't get why you're dwelling on the colour thing...it's just an example.

And I repeat my original point, if a cop does get spat on it does not justify him responding by giving the person a beating. That's just going down a very dangerous road.

Your last sentence makes no sense by the way.

It will be very sad if Atkinson's death could be avoided and if there is any culpability on the part of the police officer, I hope he is dealt with accordingly. Now hearing that he wasn't wearing a camera??

Saying it's likely to happen isn't the same as justifying it. I didn't justified the cops roughing him up, neither do i condone it. But it's likely what will happen given your friend circumstances.

If my friend got spat on without a good reason I'd punch that guy. Doesn't make me right, but that's what likely going to happen

 

[Sky1981]

You said:



This quite simply isn't true - plenty of people who haven't broken the law are the victims of police misconduct, and Hillsborough is a perfect prominent example of that (Orgreave is another). The only reason you're upset about me using it is that demonstrates so clearly how wrong you are about this.

Nah, you take one incident against thousands of daily cops routine that doesn't ended up with someone dead.

Hillsborough is wrong, but that doesn't justify not cooperating with the cops.

 

[witchtrials]

Nah, you take one incident against thousands of daily cops routine that doesn't ended up with someone dead.

Hillsborough is wrong, but that doesn't justify not cooperating with the cops.

If you think that Hillsborough is the only example of police misconduct then you are are living in a fantasy land. If you don't then your comment doesn't make any sense.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

Are you a cop/ex-cop or just a tad naive? I know a couple of people who used to be in the police force. One of them told me about when they were arresting a person and in the scuffle the suspect spat blood at her. Some of it went in her mouth and that was the last straw for her....she quit shortly after that. But she said the other coppers there were going to put him in the back of the van and give him a going over. Even though the suspect had done that to her she had to stop her 'colleagues' from setting about him because she knew what was going to happen. Many times I've had straight, direct conversations with her and my other mate and I can assure you they are not squeaky clean.

You can't be 100% certain that they acted honourably.

Yes a fair few of my friends are police ranging in experience newbies to 20+ years they put up with all kind of knobheads on a daily basis but they've never abused their power in anyway I guess I'm using them as an example.

There's going to be a full investigation anyway so we will see what happened exactly.

 

[RedPed]

Yes a fair few of my friends are police ranging in experience newbies to 20+ years they put up with all kind of knobheads on a daily basis but they've never abused their power in anyway I guess I'm using them as an example.

There's going to be a full investigation anyway so we will see what happened exactly.

Thank you. Please explain that to @Sky1981.

If you think that Hillsborough is the only example of police misconduct then you are are living in a fantasy land. If you don't then your comment doesn't make any sense.

Clearly this guy doesn't get it.

 

[witchtrials]

There's going to be a full investigation anyway so we will see what happened exactly.

I wouldn't count on that getting to the truth - the system here in the UK is massively skewed in favour of exonerating the police. From over 1,500 deaths in police custody in the last 25 years there hasn't been a single conviction.

 

[Ish]

Sad news. RIP

 

[RedPed]

Saying it's likely to happen isn't the same as justifying it. I didn't justified the cops roughing him up, neither do i condone it. But it's likely what will happen given your friend circumstances.

If my friend got spat on without a good reason I'd punch that guy. Doesn't make me right, but that's what likely going to happen

Fair enough but I would not expect you to do that if you wore a police uniform. That is the simple point I'm trying to make but you just don't seem to comprehend that. Saying it's likely to happen is tantamount to admitting that cops are bent. Anyway...moving on.

 

[kps88]

Are you a cop/ex-cop or just a tad naive? I know a couple of people who used to be in the police force. One of them told me about when they were arresting a person and in the scuffle the suspect spat blood at her. Some of it went in her mouth and that was the last straw for her....she quit shortly after that. But she said the other coppers there were going to put him in the back of the van and give him a going over. Even though the suspect had done that to her she had to stop her 'colleagues' from setting about him because she knew what was going to happen. Many times I've had straight, direct conversations with her and my other mate and I can assure you they are not squeaky clean.

You can't be 100% certain that they acted honourably.

That sounds very similar to something that happened on The Shield.

 

[Speedy30]

A taser is a firearm and any incidents where one is used will be investigated the same way that a Police Officer firing shots from a rifle would be.

I've been tasered (in training, not because I was doing anything wrong) and they disable you massively in order for you to be restrained but they are not used as lethal force.

In tragic circumstances where a death does occur, it's usually because of an underlying issue which is triggered by the taser. Obviously, it's impossible for the Police to do a full background health check before using a taser on someone.

I wasn't there so have no idea if the Police were justified in using it or not and I refuse to get drawn into media speculation because that's all it is. The facts as we know them is that a man died and that's always awful to hear.

RIP

 

[Rado_N]

Well this went in a predictable direction.

 

[barros]

One of the witnesses has claimed that the police started kicking him..

The taser wasn't working.

 

[barros]

A taser is a firearm and any incidents where one is used will be investigated the same way that a Police Officer firing shots from a rifle would be.

I've been tasered (in training, not because I was doing anything wrong) and they disable you massively in order for you to be restrained but they are not used as lethal force.

In tragic circumstances where a death does occur, it's usually because of an underlying issue which is triggered by the taser. Obviously, it's impossible for the Police to do a full background health check before using a taser on someone.

I wasn't there so have no idea if the Police were justified in using it or not and I refuse to get drawn into media speculation because that's all it is. The facts as we know them is that a man died and that's always awful to hear.

RIP

I think the issue here is how long the police keep the finger on that trigger? I mean a quick shock will disable a person so why keep shocking that person? I remember seeing that video from a women police officer who kept shocking a guy and end up shooting him because the poor man was trying to "unplug" the damn thing.

 

[red_devil83]

Unless Atkinson was armed with a bladed weapon or firearm and was extremely non-complaint or was about to commit ABH on another civilian, there's no excuse to tase him.

 

[77]

Atkinson's Daliance with the police was short lived.

Sad to see.

fecking weirdo

 

[Rood]

RIP

Always remember that goal - was goal of the year in the first ever Premier League season

According to Wiki his other claim to fame was first ever black player for Real Sociedad:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalian_Atkinson

 

[entropy]

Sad news. RIP

 

[TheReligion]

Yeah they seem like a good idea when presented as alternative to giving the police guns, but the problem is that to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail. We know that when we give tasers to the police they don't just use them in these model scenarios of people running at them with a knife, or whatever; instead experience tells us officers resort to them in a proliferating number of scenarios (people being who are being rowdy or disobedient, people who they suspected could possibly have been armed, even people having a fit etc.). And they are used disproportionately against people who are marginalised in a way that makes officers feel like they won't be held responsible (black people, poor people etc.).

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if there was a credible police accountability system in this country but there isn't - the IPCC is a joke.

What utter nonsense

 

[TheReligion]

BBC have an eye witness account.



Unless they had prior warning of him having a weapon, that sounds like a pretty flimsy reason to use a taser.

Yes. Let's take Paula Quinns account as gospel shall we. Why not just be quiet and let the investigation unfold?

 

[TheReligion]

When these killing weapons were first announced to be used in this country, it was said they were only to be used in life threatening conditions by trained personnel. As time has gone on the occasional incident has been changed to daily occurrences for flimsy excuses by many untrained people. If a police officer shot a suspect with a gun there would be a big enquiry & the officer no doubt charged, but although these weapons are equally dangerous nothing is being done. Unless this was a life threatening instance, not someone who was walking around drunk which seems to be what is coming out, then these individuals should be charged with unlawfully killing someone. This easy fix & excuse for arresting people needs to be stopped & these weapons banned.

So tasers are being used by untrained personnel? Tell me more facts about that please. .

One account has been posted. No one knows anything about this so why not let the investigation unfold instead of making naive and unsubstantiated comments?

 

[TheReligion]

Of course they are if they kill people, which they have. They are also classed as a weapon of torture by the United Nations. I can understand using them as a last resort, like they were originally supposed to be, but lazy policing is using them for any sort of reason. Where in the past police would just apprehend someone, they now automatically go for these weapons. Remember that blind guy who was tasered because some lazy policeman thought his white stick was a sword.

How many times have you had someone attack you with a weapon or otherwise? How do you know taser isn't being used as a last resort by officers? Are you aware of the process and what happens when an officer discharges a taser and what a subsequent investigation entails?

I'm guessing the answer to all of the above is no. In the past officers would have to tackle people with knives and weapons with a piece of wood and a whistle. Times change and taser is a vital piece of kit which increases officer safety and that of the general public. For every tragic example like this I can give you 100 positive ones which are happening around the country every day.

 

[TheReligion]

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And?

 

[TheReligion]

I wouldn't count on that getting to the truth - the system here in the UK is massively skewed in favour of exonerating the police. From over 1,500 deaths in police custody in the last 25 years there hasn't been a single conviction.

And what's your point? Because there's been 1500 deaths in custody someone should have gone to prison? Maybe there was not enough evidence to convict anything as no one did anything wrong? Who knows. All I know is you're an idiot.