I think you need to re-read the post I was referring to and recognize where your words betray what you're saying here.
Dalian Atkinson dies after being tasered by police
- Thread starter Jippy
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I was just thinking about when I got the coach from Stansted airport the other day. We got out at Stratford and there was a big group of coppers waiting at the coach stop. One of them said hello to each one of us as we got off.
Was this some sort of immigration check point?
Was this some sort of immigration check point?
I think to learn and improve stop and search usage is a better approach than simply outlawing it. The power is vital for any form of pro-active policing to be successful and would simply leave the police in a reactive state in my opinion.
I take on board the data and perhaps have been blinded by the statistics from GMP whom given the geography and demographic perform much more consistently in the use of stop search. They also conduct the least.
I do agree plenty of work needs to be done but I can say for fact that things are far more transparent now and will only improve with the use of BWV etc.
I don't think you can improve stop & search beyond a certain point because of unconscious bias, that's my personal opinion. Black people have been stereotyped to be angry, aggressive, confrontational etc - so there will always be justifications for targeting black people because they look 'suspicious', even when they aren't doing anything suspicious to begin with.
I understand that improvements have been made within the force, which is good to hear - however that doesn't do much to heal past incidents or repair the relationships in local neighbourhoods.
I can see that you @villain have a deep rooted issue with police but Ill try to explain the best I can why a lot of what you're saying is not really true and goes deeper than plain black and white statistics.
First thing is stop and search and the lop sided statistics towards black people, I just wanna point out this comment
Remember that most stop and searches done by police will have been conducted as a result of a phone call made to police by members of the public. That is a very important factor, think about that long and hard, think about society as a whole and the race related issues that are at hand. Factor in things like the racial make up of knife crime victims and then start questioning why this is happening? It goes far too deep to just try and look at it in the way in which you're trying to look at it.
How do you identify when someone is 'suspect looking'?
Maybe this is a question that needs to be asked of the members of public who are calling police?
Now onto your comments about the police officers are often very aggressive, with no regard for your possession or personal space. As someone who has been involved in hundreds of stop and searches, whether that be seeing, doing or being on the end of I can categorically state I have never seen what you speak of happen, ever. That isn't me saying it doesn't happen but to suggest its 'often' it false. I think you've fallen into that mindset of "If its happened to me or someone I know it must be happening to everyone"
Moving onto
Firstly, 17% of Stop & Search ends in arrest.
That's not a significant enough number that it justifies the breakdown in trust between the police & local community.
Firstly not all stop and searches that don't end in an arrest are a negative s and s. Police don't have to always arrest people who have committed a crime. For example, a police officer stop and searches someone who is found with a small wrap of cannabis, this person DOES NOT need to be arrested, there are disposal measures in place, so whilst it still gets recorded as a crime it doesn't lead to arrest.
So not only have we found that stop & search is not effective, doesn't deter crime
This is quite far fetched and I'm not sure how you've come to this conclusion, it definitely does deter crime. I really don't know what you're expecting, do you expect 100% of stop and searches to end with police finding AK47's on the searched persons? Stop and search should never ever be judged based on the arrest rate. If it did, we'd all be fecked.
I'm inclined to believe it's part of their training.
Again, just something that is completely false.
A 'bad apple' only exists because the system allows them to exist - for example my brother wrote a complaint to the local police, and received a call to say they had received the complaint, nothing further after that - he didn't get questioned, they didn't care to look at his injuries or physio reports, nothing. He followed up with them 3x and they said it was 'in progress', until eventually they decided amongst themselves that no further action was to be taken'
So even if the cops involved were 'bad apples' their colleagues enabled them, making them bad apples too.
Again, just so wide of the mark, trust me when I tell you this, police are scrutinized like you wouldn't believe. As they should be mind.
Again, I will tell you of my own experiences, I have received complaints, some completely absurd yet I was scrutinized and questioned. I had to provide a statement, justify my actions. These things also take a long time, I don't know why people think these things will be completed in 20 minutes.
Even someone who makes 20 complaints against police a month will be acknowledged and their complaints looked into so I have to say not only are you wide of the mark with this bit, it's actually complete and utter nonsense.
This, it's not perfect but how can it be? But it's a lot better than it was 20/30 years ago.
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I must say my last interactions with police were very nice.
I sold a gun to then in May during a gun buy back program and both the program and the attending officer were very nice. We couldn't coordinate our schedules during the official buy back but they came by a few days after it ended to pick up the pistol and honoured the deal.
The attending officer who picked up the gun was very nice as were the folks in the property division when I went to pick up the payment. Considering the subject matter they could have been a lot less personable. Now, this may be because I look white and am a licensed gun owner but still, I was impressed.
At the same time we have incidents like the murder of Sammy Yatim and the beating of Dafonte Miller that reflect negatively on Toronto police. I wouldn't want to paint every officer with the same brush but they probably have better and more successful interactions with the public when they approach people with respect. That's not always possible but it's important as approaching people without respect can taint the discourse immediately.
I sold a gun to then in May during a gun buy back program and both the program and the attending officer were very nice. We couldn't coordinate our schedules during the official buy back but they came by a few days after it ended to pick up the pistol and honoured the deal.
The attending officer who picked up the gun was very nice as were the folks in the property division when I went to pick up the payment. Considering the subject matter they could have been a lot less personable. Now, this may be because I look white and am a licensed gun owner but still, I was impressed.
At the same time we have incidents like the murder of Sammy Yatim and the beating of Dafonte Miller that reflect negatively on Toronto police. I wouldn't want to paint every officer with the same brush but they probably have better and more successful interactions with the public when they approach people with respect. That's not always possible but it's important as approaching people without respect can taint the discourse immediately.
How are you coming to the conclusion that I have a deep rooted issue?
I've been critical, sure but not insulting & only referred to either statistics, personal anecdotes or provided my personal opinion. How does that mean I have a deep rooted issue?
I haven't fallen into the mindset of if it happens to me, it must happen to everyone else - that's ridiculous, I used a personal example but stated that there are many more anecdotes that follow a similar pattern. Not only that but I have been involved with community outreach efforts including working on police & community relations in my local community for the last 6 years - that comes with coming into contact with hundreds if not thousands of people & their families who have been involved with police officers over the years, attended many town halls, plus my own personal encounters too.
I'm not going to go back & forth with you on the issue because ultimately me & you trading our experiences on a forum isn't going to amount to much, especially if all you're doing is telling me that my experiences are wide of the mark & far fetched - that's not helpful to anyone.
Negative Bias is an interesting one, it gets thrown around every discussion things comes about. There has also been surveys conducted inside thr force.
Although I completely get it and understand it, there is absolutely no way to avoid it.
It is ultimately one's fight or flight response, if at some point in a coppers life they have been ambushed by 8 clowns in a zoo.
When they next see these clowns and a zoo of course they are going to be a little on edge.
Many burglars I have caught are lurking in dark clothing with gloves on late at night often in the back lanes.
When I see someone like this, I'm going to get an account from them, if I'm not happy then probably search/arrest.
But my happiness with their account doesn't come from what they wear or their skin colour.
It comes from what they say, how they say it, is their account consistent with where they are now? Etc etc.
But ultimately my bias has alerted me to that male initially. (sounds like spidey sense?)
People always being up negative bias and try and use it in racial arguments, but negative bias is not a bad thing what so ever.
If their negative bias pointed an officer to 'black male wearing hoody on a street corner'. Fine, go with this instinct..(if in doubt you can always ask yourself would a 'reasonable person' be doing such an act')
But I would say it is what comes after this point that is up for dispute.
I have had many foot chases, and only black males have managed to get away from me. For whatever reason, these two males are simply faster than me. This has resulted in me having a bias. This affects my actions because now i position myself differently or use 'reasonable force' earlier than I usually would. I would not say this is a racist action, just simply my mind trying to adapt and do my Job better. Almost human instinct and evolution.
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So you and your cop buddies are quite happy to go with this but you take umbrage at the police being judged unfairly because of a few bad apples. The police also have a certain 'profile' if you wish, to use your analogy, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for a lot of people to assume their default position of one of distrust, corruption, racism etc., when it comes to the police.
I don't mind at all. I like the discussion.
What the actual feck. You are a cop and you have just admitted when dealing with a black male you will resort to force earlier than you would with a person who is not black because you've lost a few races to some black guys. I'm genuinely baffled that (a) you act like this and (b) you evidently feel there is nothing wrong with it because you've openly posted it on a forum and attempted to justify it. 'I would not say this is a racist action' I mean are you actually kidding? Is this a parody? I cannot emphasise enough just how racist this policy is. You cannot seriously believe otherwise. In all my time on this forum this is probably the most mind-blowing post I have ever seen: someone openly admitting that they resort to force against black people quicker than they would against a white person and explaining is as 'not a racist action' and 'my mind trying to adapt'. Adapt to what, your racism? feck me.
Force doesn't mean giving someone a kicking or laying them out, or being aggressive in any way. In fact, the use of "verbal demands" is considered force now. Maybe i should have been more clear.
It's clearly an example of how the theory of negative bias works in practice.
Absolutely no different than asking someone with their hands in their pockets to show them. Because my negative bias thinks they might have a sharp object in there.
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No wonder you lot are hated so much. There's no point reasoning with a copper, most of them are bent anyway (that's my bias).
It's a discussion providing viewpoints and opinions.
Like I said, negative bias theory is interesting and affects everyone in all aspects of their life.
Workers in public service remain, pardon the pun, criminally undervalued and overworked, often by people that have never worked in such environments; often by people incapable of carrying out roles of similar nature. Our doctors, nurses, teachers, police officers, prison officers and child protection services (plus whoever else I’ve neglected to mention) are relentlessly targeted and decimated by those who seek to rely upon them. Not to mention the governments that abuse them. Of course, not all people. It’s a minority. But it’s a very vocal one. Some of them vocal in this very thread.
Scrutiny and criticism of the police force is important. They must operate with objectivity. Those that don’t should face consequences - and often do. But it should be noted that many of them are a force for good in society.
Scrutiny and criticism of the police force is important. They must operate with objectivity. Those that don’t should face consequences - and often do. But it should be noted that many of them are a force for good in society.
‘Interesting’...hmm...funny way to say racist
It doesn't have to mean giving someone a kicking. You are saying you treat black people differently (and more negatively) to how you treat white people as an officer. Thats basically discrimination based on race. Not based on their actions but your own biases. Basically you are describing racism.
That is how negative biases work (or shouldn't work) in practice. Here is an example of a questionnaire, give it a try.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
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Like, how are you this dense? "Oh, thank god you randomly stopped and searched me and my friends for no other reason than that we are black. Sure makes us feel safe and secure knowing you're racially profiling us!"
I can see why people are unhappy about what @UnitedBoy has said here. It doesn't sound particularly good.
We all have unconscious biases and by unconscious we don't actually know we are treating someone differently. It is unconscious and happens in all walks of life.
The skill is to recognise such a behaviour and look to change it.
With stop search if someone is bigger than me or they give me reason to believe they will make off or I am alone I'm going to use force and detain them. I might even use handcuffs. That's to do with impact factors. I would never say I always do XY or Z. It's totally dependent on the circumstances.
We all have unconscious biases and by unconscious we don't actually know we are treating someone differently. It is unconscious and happens in all walks of life.
The skill is to recognise such a behaviour and look to change it.
With stop search if someone is bigger than me or they give me reason to believe they will make off or I am alone I'm going to use force and detain them. I might even use handcuffs. That's to do with impact factors. I would never say I always do XY or Z. It's totally dependent on the circumstances.
It's for their own good. Or something.There's nothing unconscious about saying 'I got outran by a black guy so now I resort to force quicker against all black people than I would any other group of people'. That's just outright conscious racism. It's disgusting, stupid and indefensible. Anyone who holds such views is simply unfit to serve in the police force.
@UnitedBoy you’ve not helped the cause at all with those comments. In fact those comments are actually quite disgraceful, I’m not going to bother picking them apart but yeah I’ve been in here defending our profession, and you’ve gone and said something like that. It concerns me greatly that you are a serving police officer.
The guy has to be trolling or something. He can't really be serious? But either way, it's downright disgraceful. I guess he's just one of those 'bad apples' that we have to put up with.
I can only assume that this is not an isolated case and that this moron represents a not insignificant number of the police force who hold the same or similar points of view.
I can only assume that this is not an isolated case and that this moron represents a not insignificant number of the police force who hold the same or similar points of view.
To be fair you’ve been making idiotic comments through the thread.
Jesus so much wrong here.
I haven't disagreed nor am I defending him. I'm not sure where this negative bias thing first came up but I think it's been confused totally with unconscious bias.
Idiotic? Some of your justifications along with others have been pure bullshit and now one of your own has just openly admitted to being a prick and it's quite disturbing to think that he is being let loose in some community somewhere. Yeah, you'll come back with the same old excuses saying he is in the minority and the police do their best to clean up their act.
But if he's happy to spout rubbish like that, I'm sure he's said it to his colleagues at some point...yet he's still serving as an officer.
I agree. It was a piss poor hypothetical example, worded incredibly poor. I really do apologise. By no means representing of the good work police do. Again, I was simply trying add to the discussion.
Frightening thread.
What's more, these are the aired views - the even more vehement 'bad apples' think far worse, to the point they wouldn't air their thoughts on a open forum such as this.
What's more, these are the aired views - the even more vehement 'bad apples' think far worse, to the point they wouldn't air their thoughts on a open forum such as this.
Back to the main point of the thread. Is there any news about what evidence was used to charge the officer with murder?
I dont think its plausible to become a police to be 100 percent unbiased and not relying on stereotypes in their job. You really cant treat every situation same. If i see a bunch of people singing football songs grouped up at night in uk I'd probably stay the hell away from them. It that happens when I'm in sweden or japan or singapore I'd probably joined them for group photos. Am i racist? I dont think human can be unbiased at a glance.
As long as they're not planting evidence and get strictly professional after finding no wrong doing that's good enough for me.
As long as they're not planting evidence and get strictly professional after finding no wrong doing that's good enough for me.
I think that's what they're unhappy about.
No nothing I've seen. I guess we will have to see how it unfolds.
What other views are you frightened by or just the one made by Unitedboy?
The irony here is you are spouting just as much rubbish but from the opposite view point. Fortunately the vast majority of people remain balanced.
Okay, thanks
Glad we cleared that up. You'll probably assume that I also have a deep-rooted issue with the police as you incorrectly and unfairly did with the other poster but that is what you do. Anyway, nothing will ever change. On to the next news story.
These threads really aren't for me, if I'm honest - I tend to read through, shake my head a few times, and then go about the rest of my e-day.
There's an underlying current of justification for actions that are going to rile the disenfranchised or those who already have 'unconfirmed' suspicions that this is how the system works. Further to that, this thread is just the tip of the iceberg as there are far worse police out there than those trying to fairly and (to their mind) objectively to do a difficult job already biased/prejudiced against those who they're out there policing.
What's frightening is that it takes one bad day for a life to be ruined or ended and as long as you're not the victim of that, it's not something you're going to think deeply about, is it? Things like 'resisting arrest' that is their word against yours - the potential for escalation through such a seemingly innocuous scenario, or outright lie in some cases, it's a devastating scenario on numerous levels, isn't it?
Some of the places I've trained at have had police learning self-defence or polishing skills, and as you would expect with a range of human beings, you have a spectrum that ranges from someone who you'd think would be a fair, reasoned and competent policeman, to those who I think fit the description above - the idea of that type with power and pre-conceptions that are a concern in their own right, it's a recipe for disaster.
You might call them 'bad eggs' to others they must surely be a menace who create as many problems communally as they resolve via arrest.
It's a massive problem when the issues within the police are seen as systematic and institutional, however, and that impression isn't a reach to see, even in this thread where comments are relatively mild contrasted to what would be read in a closed forum amongst like-minded police - where 'bad eggs' aren't called on anything they do.
Really? You’re talking about incorrect and unfair assumptions. Honestly your lack of self awareness is staggering. But anyway I’m done exchanging with you in this thread.
I'll try to allay your concerns, now I don't know how other forces in Europe or the world work or even outside the met and I dont know what force you're referring to in your comments but and I have to stress this again, everything we do is scrutinised to the max. The introduction of body worn camera was a massive step towards the met being transparent . If you turn up to incidents like stop and search, domestics and you haven't recorded the entire interaction you are pulled in and questioned as to why this has happened. I think I mentioned it earlier but for something like stop and search, all the footage is audited by non police to make sure we're acting legally and professionally. In terms of incidents that go wrong after police contact, the idea that police close ranks in a forum and officers aren't called up on their actions is not true really. One of the first things that happens if an officer is involved in an incident that leads to severe injury or worse death is that the officer is usually taken off the street and can remain off the street for however many months or years it takes to investigate the incident, that's regardless of whether the officer has been found innocent or guilty. The courts also come down a lot harder and gives longer sentences to officers who offend (as it should be because they have been entrusted to uphold the law).
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