Darren Fletcher - Technical Director

devilish

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Right so he's unsuited to be our technical director because his Dad didn't play for United and he wasn't as good as you wanted him to be at football.
Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
 

Stobzilla

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I am only saying that Maldini's experience can't be compared with that of Fletcher (or anyone really).
Agreed, Maldini only ever experienced one environment whereas Fletcher has experienced many different ones that only have a relevance to the country that Manchester United are competing in. Astute point to make.

To address your point above, you aren't interested in having a good faith debate about this, your position on United and its former players has been made very clear over the years.
 

Real Name

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Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
So Maldini was a class player with huge experience and ton of trophies and his dad was at the club which all makes him better at being a staff member compared to SAF's pet Fletcher?
Fletcher didnt have a dad at United so he shouldnt have got a job.

And a promotion. 2 times in 8 months.

I'm amazed you didnt come up with a nickname for Fletcher too.

There is space for a debate but its hard to debate when you write nonsense.
 

Sweet Square

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well Zidane had stated that Lippi was the most important manager he had ever had.
Did Zidane say this in regards to have he now manages ? I could be wrong and his time at Juventus changed how he saw the game and impacted him as a manger but we need more information to make that judged.

Also oddly enough Lippi didn’t think Zidane would turn out to be a good manager

"I never thought that Zidane would become a coach," Lippi said in an interview with L'Equipe. "I have coached players like [Didier] Deschamps who I knew would do well on the bench, but Zidane was certainly not one of them.

"That being said, I believe Zidane can do well at a big club like Real Madrid. Zidane is intimately familiar with the psychology of top players, in both defeat and victory."

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/uef...ppi-never-thought-zidane-would-become-a-coach
 

Solius

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Where have I said that? All I said is that you can't really compare Maldini with Fletcher and I gave my reasons as of why. For the rest, I can't really argue pro or cons. On the other hand there are very few people who managed to get 2 promotions in few months. So either the guy is a genius or the system is flawed. I let individual people to decide which based on how successful United had been since SAF left.

I rest my case now as its evident that there's no space for debate on this subject.
You explained why you think Maldini worked and your reasons were because he was a world class player and his Dad player for Milan. Also the three generations things. It implies that's what Fletcher lacks compared to him.

Also on the second bolded bit, it's clearly not that simple is it? The staff/club are a sum of their parts and the right combination is needed. We weren't poor solely because of Fletcher or any one person. Look at how maligned McKenna and Carrick were as coaches at times and now they're doing superb jobs at Ipswich and Middlesbrough respectively. Even Eric Ramsay is getting some plaudits this season and being headhunted. Hell even Steve Round & Albert Stuivenberg who looked clueless during their time at Utd are now coaches at the team top of the league.

The actual answer is nobody truly knows the impact someone like that actually has at a club from the outside, and their environment can help or hinder it.
 

devilish

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You explained why you think Maldini worked and your reasons were because he was a world class player and his Dad player for Milan. Also the three generations things. It implies that's what Fletcher lacks compared to him.

Also on the second bolded bit, it's clearly not that simple is it? The staff/club are a sum of their parts and the right combination is needed. We weren't poor solely because of Fletcher or any one person. Look at how maligned McKenna and Carrick were as coaches at times and now they're doing superb jobs at Ipswich and Middlesbrough respectively. Even Eric Ramsay is getting some plaudits this season and being headhunted. Hell even Steve Round & Albert Stuivenberg who looked clueless during their time at Utd are now coaches at the team top of the league.

The actual answer is nobody truly knows the impact someone like that actually has at a club from the outside, and their environment can help or hinder it.
There is a massive difference between league 1/championship and United. But oh well.
 

Amir

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What has Maldini's family tree got to do with his ability to fill a staff role?

These jobs come down to technical and personal qualities. We know feck all unless we're in the building or we conduct the interview process. Even then we wouldn't exactly be the best people to judge but it would at least be substantiated.
Exactly. His family tree has nothing to do with it, nor does his great record as a footballer. It's a totally different role that requires different qualities. One's history and understanding of the game are important, but not enough.

My main issue with Fletcher's appointment - and rather weird quick rising through the ranks - was simple: I did not understand who at the club at the time would have had the ability to identify that Fletcher (or anyone else who was unproven) had the right qualities for those roles.
 

devilish

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And Arsenal's coaches? Or you just ignoring that part?
Round stayed with United for few months, stuivenberg for 2 years. I don't recall that they were many criticism surrounding them
 

Lemoor

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Round stayed with United for few months, stuivenberg for 2 years. I don't recall that they were many criticism surrounding them
People that Moyes brought from Everton were famously uncriticised on the forum.
 

romufc

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Also, how did McKenna even enter the conversation for examples of nepotism? He came in from Spurs as a highly rated youth coach and had nothing to do with United as a player.
His Nationality.
 

devilish

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Well there was lots.
People that Moyes brought from Everton were famously uncriticised on the forum.
Steve Round had ample experience as no 2 prior of joining United. Stuivenberg had less (U17 and U21 with the Dutch league). The criticism was usually raised at the respective managers rather then to them. Moyes was horribly out of depth and he made the mistake of sacking most of SAF's people prior to even settling down while LVG was basically a tactical dinosaur.

The only person I criticised harshly at the time was Jim Lumsden and that criticism came straight from the people within the club.
 

Solius

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Frans Hoek is the Netherlands' goalkeeping coach and has been instrumental in the development of keepers such as United legend Edwin van der Sar and Barcelona's Victor Valdes. He joins as assistant coach, specialising in goalkeeping.

Experience: Ajax, Netherlands, Bayern, Barcelona

Marcel Bout joins as assistant coach, specialising in opposition scouting, having previously worked for Bayern Munich, Telstar, AZ, FC Volendam and Feyenoord.

As opposed to

Jimmy Lumsden - Leeds, Bristol, Rochdale, Preston North End and Everton
Steve Round - Newcastle (1 year) and Everton
Philip Neville .....
You liked shitting on Steve Round when it suited you as well.
 

devilish

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Exactly. His family tree has nothing to do with it, nor does his great record as a footballer. It's a totally different role that requires different qualities. One's history and understanding of the game are important, but not enough.

My main issue with Fletcher's appointment - and rather weird quick rising through the ranks - was simple: I did not understand who at the club at the time would have had the ability to identify that Fletcher (or anyone else who was unproven) had the right qualities for those roles.
My point was that you can't compare anyone really with the wealth of knowledge and experience Paolo Maldini has about his club. We're talking of a person whose family had been involved with Milan since the 50s when Cesare was an AC Milan player and then went on to become manager, director and assistant manager. Then he came out from the academy, he made his debut as a player at age 16 and he spent 25 years there winning everything there is to win at club level multiple times. He also have a son aka Daniel playing there too.

I can't recall anyone who has such experience at any given club.
 

top1whoisman

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My point was that you can't compare anyone really with the wealth of knowledge and experience Paolo Maldini has about his club. We're talking of a person whose family had been involved with Milan since the 50s when Cesare was an AC Milan player and then went on to become manager, director and assistant manager. Then he came out from the academy, he made his debut as a player at age 16 and he spent 25 years there winning everything there is to win at club level multiple times. He also have a son aka Daniel playing there too.

I can't recall anyone who has such experience at any given club.
Since we don't have anyone like that available at United, who should be our technical director then? If experience from the club is important, surely Fletch is up there, no?
 

Solius

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You mean this?

He's not rough around the edges that's for sure

I was making a joke on his surname mate.
Those links are referring to the questioning and criticism he got from the whole forum.
 

Lemoor

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My point was that you can't compare anyone really with the wealth of knowledge and experience Paolo Maldini has about his club.
Who was comparing those exact things apart from you? Comparisons were about qualifications before hiring on a directorial position and none of those things you mentioned translate directly to being even an adequate director.
 

BerryBerryShrew

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Finally no one got as much scrutiny by the fans as Maldini did. We're talking about a guy who after winning everything with Milan was booed during his last game and reminded that he is not Baresi.
He retired from Milan on very bad terms (he got booed in his last game),he was exiled by the administration of the time only to return at the request of Elliott group of all people.
I know this is off topic, but can you give a bit more background on this? What did Maldini do or say to be ostracised by the Milan fans? It would take something extraordinary for United fans to boo King Eric and Maldini is arguably an even bigger legend for Milan than Cantona is for us.
 

Bojan Djordjic

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What I am saying is that Paolo Maldini's experience is incomparable to anyone. His father was a former Milan player (and quite WC at that) who then covered multiple jobs at Milan including that of manager. That meant that his boy was born at AC Milan. Then Paolo turned out to be a child prodigy. He made his debut at age 16 only to end up playing in the finest defence the world had ever seen. Now he's got a son whose playing for AC Milan as well. If you want to do an equivalent to that would be if Charlton was a decent manager at United and beyond. He would then have a son who was an even better player then him, he would spend decades at United where he won nearly double the CLs this club had ever won (ie 5) and he would retire only to return and lead AC Milan to a very unlikely success. Finally his grandson would end up a Manchester United player as well. I think we can all agree that Darren is nowhere near to that.

I hate the jobs for the boys because we don't produce bright people who actually understand football beyond that of nodding at the manager. While Milan produce the likes of Ancelotti and Capello we produce, erm the Nevilles and Ole
To be fair Fletcher was nothing if not bright. Think I read an Athletic report on the private school the united scholars and the headmaster identified both Darren Fletcher and Jonny Evans as having been very academically gifted. Elanga supposed to be another smart cookie.
 

golden_blunder

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My point was that you can't compare anyone really with the wealth of knowledge and experience Paolo Maldini has about his club. We're talking of a person whose family had been involved with Milan since the 50s when Cesare was an AC Milan player and then went on to become manager, director and assistant manager. Then he came out from the academy, he made his debut as a player at age 16 and he spent 25 years there winning everything there is to win at club level multiple times. He also have a son aka Daniel playing there too.

I can't recall anyone who has such experience at any given club.
I’m sure Bryan Robson could recount the history of United no problem, or Fletcher for that matter. It all means diddly squat as to whether they can do the job. Maldini could equally have failed, and that’s nothing to do with his stature as a successful player at the club before.
 

golden_blunder

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To be fair Fletcher was nothing if not bright. Think I read an Athletic report on the private school the united scholars and the headmaster identified both Darren Fletcher and Jonny Evans as having been very academically gifted. Elanga supposed to be another smart cookie.
You only have to listen to Fletcher to know he’s an intelligent guy with a good instinct for football
 

united_99

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What nepotism exactly? Paolo was a child prodigy who turned out to become among the best defender in the world with more then twice the CL honours as player them SAF won in his entire managerial career. He retired from Milan on very bad terms (he got booed in his last game),he was exiled by the administration of the time only to return at the request of Elliott group of all people. He then played an instrumental role which lead to milan winning the league title in nearly 20 years despite relying on a shoe string budget.
You keep writing the same stuff about how many CLs Maldini won as a player. Or the closest Fletcher came to being world class was when he was sitting next to Giggs and Scholes. All correct but not even slightly relevant here.
We are not comparing Fletcher the ex player to them. Neither did Maldini win all those CLs in the role Fletcher currently has. Neither is there any proof that world class Giggs or Scholes would be better suited for Fletcher‘s current role.
If honours as players were important for a role in the board or coaching staff then Messi and Ronaldo would be the best Directors, managers, coaches or DoFs.

Then you come up with Ancelotti who Milan didn’t even produce and who started his career several decades ago. You couldn’t even come up with a more recent example. Then all you do to explain all this is trying to justify why “job for boys” for Maldini family is unique/different. Which again has no relevance to Fletcher’s current role.
 

Adnan

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Darren Fletcher's role at United is very different to the role Maldini is occupying at AC Milan. Maldini is the head of the football departments at Milan, whilst Fletcher first joined as a youth coach and was then given more responsibility by the full-time managers, where he is reported to be helping direct the first team coaching staff on who should be making the step up to first team training aided by the likes of Nick Cox. So he was promoted from coaching the youth full time to helping select which youth players were ready to step upto first team training.

What some of you need to ask yourself is, that do you even want to attempt to learn what the likes of Fletcher do or carry on being led astray by a title given to him. The actual technical director helping oversee the football side of the club is Andy O'Boyle. And from what's been reported, he hasn't only been assisting with transfer negotiations at first team level but also oversees the academy/recruitment since he arrived late last year.

And Italian football clubs don't produce football managers but rather they produce football players who are influenced by other football people which shapes their coaching career. Arrigo Sacchi was the revolutionary coach at Milan in the late 80s and he was heavily influenced by the Dutch team of the 70s. Ancelotti himself was influenced by the Swedish coach Nils Liedholm in his own words when the Swede was managing Roma.


Arrigo Sacchi “The last 50 years in the sport have been a constant evolution from Ajax to Holland, Milan to Guardiola’s Barcelona. Without evolution, the sport is dead. Without risks, you remain in the past, whereas innovation makes you change every year."

“In Italy, we have this short-term view of everything and want to stop time, stick with the past. Pessimism blocks your brain. If you play in defence, how can you grow?”

https://football-italia.net/ancelotti-sacchi-pep-on-mentors/

Sacchi's words still ring true today imo. Italian football hasn't evolved as much as other big leagues and we still see general managers and DoFs attempt to implement a dated method of football., with the exception of a few teams.
 

OmarUnited4ever

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I don't get why some people put any importance in what Fletcher does, I am not saying he doing nothing of value or anything like that, but he is just a support staff at the end of the day and doesn't hold a key position.

In the club's current football setup, it has the below people occupying key positions:

CEO - Richard Arnold
Football Director - John Mortough
Head Coach/First Team Manager - Erik Ten Hag
Head of Recruitment - Steve Brown
Head of Youth Development - Nick Cox

The rest like McLaren or Fletcher or O'Boyle are just subordinates to those key people, Fletcher does not make final decisions on any important matter nor does he get delegated to make those decisions, I don't put much stock on the narrative that he is promoted, he just advices on certain matters, being a youth coach or a technical director is the same thing really as both roles aren't key in any way within the club's football structure.
 

Bastian

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His title has been changed to Director Technical
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