Day 17: England vs Germany | Sweden vs Ukraine (Ro16 7&8)

MU655

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We love to hate ourselves. I simply don’t understand.

I see more posts on here since Germany were confirmed as our opponents about us losing than us getting through. The mind boggles.

Yet the huge fecking irony is that if the results were switched:

England playing like Germany
Germany playing like England.

You’d be saying that Germany were cool calm and comfortable going into the match against England & we’d all be saying how dreadful we’ve been this tournament and how we don’t deserve to be there after losing to France and embarrassingly holding on for a draw against Hungary. There’d be inquests about how lucky we were to get through. Whilst Germany witha. Comfortable 1-0 against Croatia and a solid 0-0 against Scotland and a comfortable 1-0 against Czech Republic. We’d all be fearing a Germany who yet haven’t got out of 1st gear yet.

English football fans love to piss on their own parade. Let’s face it, Germany were and are the weakest of the 3 (France, Portugal and Germany) & we stand a good chance of getting through on Tuesday night. France were 2nd in my opinion as their defence is shaky at best and Portugal for me were the one to fear.

So let’s feck off this doom and gloom and get behind the team for Tuesday. We’re gonna do it lads!

EDIT: I'm not saying that we're 100% going to get through, as it's Germany and we shouldn't write them off. What I'm saying is we shouldn't fear the Germans at all. We should be going into this with the confidence that we can beat them. As they can be beat. They are ropey at best and a shadow of their former selves. They'll be up for it as it's England Vs Germany. But come on lads. Let's not shit the bed before we've even kicked a ball. You go into things like that you're destined to lose.
How are they the weakest of the three when they finished second and beat Portugal comfortably?

I agree that we shouldn't fear Germany, but Southgate will. He set up negatively against Scotland and then in the second half against the Czech Republic, so the likelihood is that he will be even more negative in this game.

It will come as a massive surprise if we play like we should do against them: actually targeting their defence and pressurising them. It is hard to be excited when you know the team you support is just going to sit back and hope for a lucky break.
 

stefan92

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The manager who won Germany the World Cup and Confederations Cup, whilst taking them to a Euro final and finishing third place in another World Cup? Just checking.
If I reflect over the whole time of Löw in charge...

2008 was quite ok, nothing special, but also no big mistakes by Löw I believe as simply the player quality wasn't there.

2010 was a fun tournament for Germany, just Spain seemed unbeatable that year and Müller was out for the deciding match - can happen, third place with this mostly young squad (most of them won the U21 Euros a year before) also is ok in my eyes.

2012 against Italy was just a massive tactical failure by Löw, playing Kroos to mark Pirlo was a recipe for disaster and absolutely on Löw, not on the players who where asked to do tasks they were not used to and were expectedly not good at.

The world cup 2014 was especially won due to being great at set pieces. These were especially trained by Löw's assistant (and designated successor) Hansi Flick, who had to argue together with the team against Löw that this would be important - so yes, this win was despite Löw, not because of him.

He neglected these areas again, got back to his narrow-minded ways and went on to fail in 2016 Euros.

The 2017 Confed Cup actually is the only tournament where I think Löw did a great job - took a kind of B-Team to that tournament, adjusted the tactics to fit this squad and they went on to win that thing. That was great work and here he showed that he is able to build a team and a working system with the players at hand.

He then went on to believe that his A-Team would be strong enough to realize his "vision" of football again and failed badly in 2018, neither was that team able to do what he wanted nor was he able to integrate the core of that 2017 team into his first team.

And now we have 2021, barely scraped through the group stage while so far playing a system that doesn't suit most of the selected players and Löw fails to recognise what's going on. Leaving Sane on the field for the whole match yesterday was just absurd for example. That's not better than 2018 in regard to the tactical setup, this is just a better team and fighting spirit, that alone won't be enough to win things. Löw still has a chance to fix his mistakes, but this again is so far a quite bad tournament.

As someone who has seen various "golden generations" flatter to deceive for England, I will politely disagree :lol:
Well, what is a "Golden Generation" in England? Looking at your history it has to be one that is able to win a Knock-Out match, we are not talking about titles when we are talking about England, are we?
 

stefan92

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How are they the weakest of the three when they finished second and beat Portugal comfortably?

I agree that we shouldn't fear Germany, but Southgate will. He set up negatively against Scotland and then in the second half against the Czech Republic, so the likelihood is that he will be even more negative in this game.

It will come as a massive surprise if we play like we should do against them: actually targeting their defence and pressurising them. It is hard to be excited when you know the team you support is just going to sit back and hope for a lucky break.
Winning against Portugal comfortably is something Germany just does all the time, don't know why, just seems to be a law of nature over the last 20 years and is no indication about the quality of both teams when it comes to other games.

Have you seen Germany play? We have no idea how to break down a team that sits deeps and are horribly bad at defending counters so far. Sitting back, watch Germany pass around your low block and occasionally go on a run got fecking Hungary two goals, and I don't think you would suggest that someone like Sallai or Szalai is more quality than any of the English forwards? The only thing England has to make sure is defending on the wings well, Portugal neglected that area a bit and our wing backs couldn't believe their luck how free they were all the time to create and score all German goals.
 

Dans

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So long as we play risk averse, system based football at that snails pace which doesn't allow players like Foden, Sancho, Grealish to really express themselves, we will struggle against the Germans who generally seem to grow into tournaments.

In my opinion, we need to take it to them from the first whistle, press and hassle them and work our cojones off and we may have a chance.
 

2ndTouch

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In my opinion, we need to take it to them from the first whistle, press and hassle them and work our cojones off and we may have a chance.
Actually, that would suit us way more than parking the bus.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Was thinking the same thing about you guys. :D All we have to do, is maintaining a good, 55yr old tradition of beating you whenever it matters.
Come on, you bloody Die Mannschaft feckers, you have one job!
Technically, we drew in 1970, 1990 & 1996, you beat us in 2010 & we beat you in 2000. So it’s 1-1 :wenger:
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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It's going to be glorious to see the likes of Lineker, Jenas, Wright and Matterface in tears when the inevitable happens and England get dumped out.
Why?

So long as we play risk averse, system based football at that snails pace which doesn't allow players like Foden, Sancho, Grealish to really express themselves, we will struggle against the Germans who generally seem to grow into tournaments.

In my opinion, we need to take it to them from the first whistle, press and hassle them and work our cojones off and we may have a chance.
So Gosens can feck us on the counter? Southgate-ball might actually work here. It won’t be pretty but I’ll take a scrappy 1-0.
 

Bilbo

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Agree with the German posters who see that England stylistically are a bad match-up for Germany. I would make us marginal favourites to win with home advantage but of course it comes down to who turns up and also how much this mental block about the Germans exists within this squad of players.

Midfield is obviously the key. I think we will see us go with a back three and use wing-backs to go up against the German width. TAA would have been a huge asset in how I think we will set up, but Saka will probably keep his place. Wouldn't be surprised to see the same XI from the last match
 

Tonicruise

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Both Germany and England have looked shockingly bad even though they have been playing at home every single game like wtf??? and in Englands case against quite poor teams. I think we (Sweden) have a great chance of going through if we beat Ukraine, can't recall the last time Germany and England have looked this bad. Germany let in 5 goals in 3 games and England only managed to score twice in 3 games vs very poor opposition, dream chance for Sweden to go far this year.
 
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Siorac

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How are they the weakest of the three when they finished second and beat Portugal comfortably?

I agree that we shouldn't fear Germany, but Southgate will. He set up negatively against Scotland and then in the second half against the Czech Republic, so the likelihood is that he will be even more negative in this game.

It will come as a massive surprise if we play like we should do against them: actually targeting their defence and pressurising them. It is hard to be excited when you know the team you support is just going to sit back and hope for a lucky break.
In Southgate's defence - pre-emptive defence? -, sitting back, closing down the wingbacks and clogging passing lanes worked really well for both France and Hungary against the Germans. England have far superior personnel to Hungary, they should be able to frustrate Kroos and co. and hit them on the break.
 

SamVimes

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If only England had someone in the squad who has been playing in the Bundesliga for the last three seasons, scoring 50 goals and involved in 109 goals. Anyone have any ideas?
 

Rajiztar

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I will go with 3-4-3 formation against germany with kane is irreplaceable for manager.
Pickford. James walker stones. Maguire. Shaw. Rice/hendo Phillips/Bellingham. Saka. Kane. Sterling
 

Rajiztar

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If only England had someone in the squad who has been playing in the Bundesliga for the last three seasons, scoring 50 goals and involved in 109 goals. Anyone have any ideas?
Bundesliga is not a benchmark though. Werner do you remember. Even batshuayi scored 9 in 11 games.
 

Berbaclass

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We love to hate ourselves. I simply don’t understand.

I see more posts on here since Germany were confirmed as our opponents about us losing than us getting through. The mind boggles.

Yet the huge fecking irony is that if the results were switched:

England playing like Germany
Germany playing like England.

You’d be saying that Germany were cool calm and comfortable going into the match against England & we’d all be saying how dreadful we’ve been this tournament and how we don’t deserve to be there after losing to France and embarrassingly holding on for a draw against Hungary. There’d be inquests about how lucky we were to get through. Whilst Germany witha. Comfortable 1-0 against Croatia and a solid 0-0 against Scotland and a comfortable 1-0 against Czech Republic. We’d all be fearing a Germany who yet haven’t got out of 1st gear yet.

English football fans love to piss on their own parade. Let’s face it, Germany were and are the weakest of the 3 (France, Portugal and Germany) & we stand a good chance of getting through on Tuesday night. France were 2nd in my opinion as their defence is shaky at best and Portugal for me were the one to fear.

So let’s feck off this doom and gloom and get behind the team for Tuesday. We’re gonna do it lads!

EDIT: I'm not saying that we're 100% going to get through, as it's Germany and we shouldn't write them off. What I'm saying is we shouldn't fear the Germans at all. We should be going into this with the confidence that we can beat them. As they can be beat. They are ropey at best and a shadow of their former selves. They'll be up for it as it's England Vs Germany. But come on lads. Let's not shit the bed before we've even kicked a ball. You go into things like that you're destined to lose.
Great post.
 

Rektsanwalt

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In 2014, we smashed Portugal in the group stages, scraped to a lucky draw against Ghana, got an unconvincing 1-0 vs the US, and almost got kicked out by Algeria in R16.
In 2016, Portugal didn't win a single game in their group. Long story short, the tournament begins now, and previous results don't matter anymore.
Do you really have high hopes? Against England, sure, Germany can win, it's a coinflip more or less.
Löw still sucks.
 

Rajiztar

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*Sigh* You do know who England are playing next?
Yes I knew. But anyone s Bundesliga stats mislead average player to great player. I said Bundesliga stats not benchmark may be sometime true but mostly false.
 

P-Nut

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I think Southgate will switch to the back 3 to match up to Germany in this game, otherwise he's got an issue with the wingbacks of Germany dragging Sterling and Saka back to their half over and over again.

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire
Trippier Phillips Rice Shaw
Saka Kane Sterling

That would be my guess for how we'll line up.
 

TheGame

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I think Southgate will switch to the back 3 to match up to Germany in this game, otherwise he's got an issue with the wingbacks of Germany dragging Sterling and Saka back to their half over and over again.

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire
Trippier Phillips Rice Shaw
Saka Kane Sterling

That would be my guess for how we'll line up.
How depressing is that line up right there. And people wonder why us English fans are so negative heading into this match. We could have the chance to play the following:

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire Shaw
Bellingham Rice Mount/Grealish
Sancho Kane Sterling
 

P-Nut

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How depressing is that line up right there. And people wonder why us English fans are so negative heading into this match. We could have the chance to play the following:

Pickford
Walker Stones Maguire Shaw
Bellingham Rice Mount/Grealish
Sancho Kane Sterling
Yeah it's most definitely a case of covering our weaknesses rather than playing to our strengths, but I actually think it would work against Germany. The line up you've posted I'd hope to see against the likes of Sweden if we make it through.
 

TheGame

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Yeah it's most definitely a case of covering our weaknesses rather than playing to our strengths, but I actually think it would work against Germany. The line up you've posted I'd hope to see against the likes of Sweden if we make it through.
I have to disagree. Think we will invite pressure with a defensive lineup and be punished for it.
 

2ndTouch

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Do you really have high hopes? Against England, sure, Germany can win, it's a coinflip more or less.
Löw still sucks.
If we make it past Ingurland, we should have a good chance of making the final. The next obstacle could be our real rivals, our dustmen uniform for kit wearing neighbours, in the semis.
 

BFernandes

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We love to hate ourselves. I simply don’t understand.

I see more posts on here since Germany were confirmed as our opponents about us losing than us getting through. The mind boggles.

Yet the huge fecking irony is that if the results were switched:

England playing like Germany
Germany playing like England.

You’d be saying that Germany were cool calm and comfortable going into the match against England & we’d all be saying how dreadful we’ve been this tournament and how we don’t deserve to be there after losing to France and embarrassingly holding on for a draw against Hungary. There’d be inquests about how lucky we were to get through. Whilst Germany witha. Comfortable 1-0 against Croatia and a solid 0-0 against Scotland and a comfortable 1-0 against Czech Republic. We’d all be fearing a Germany who yet haven’t got out of 1st gear yet.

English football fans love to piss on their own parade. Let’s face it, Germany were and are the weakest of the 3 (France, Portugal and Germany) & we stand a good chance of getting through on Tuesday night. France were 2nd in my opinion as their defence is shaky at best and Portugal for me were the one to fear.

So let’s feck off this doom and gloom and get behind the team for Tuesday. We’re gonna do it lads!

EDIT: I'm not saying that we're 100% going to get through, as it's Germany and we shouldn't write them off. What I'm saying is we shouldn't fear the Germans at all. We should be going into this with the confidence that we can beat them. As they can be beat. They are ropey at best and a shadow of their former selves. They'll be up for it as it's England Vs Germany. But come on lads. Let's not shit the bed before we've even kicked a ball. You go into things like that you're destined to lose.
Presuming I'm English?
 

SamVimes

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Yes I knew. But anyone s Bundesliga stats mislead average player to great player. I said Bundesliga stats not benchmark may be sometime true but mostly false.
And do you think it maybe useful to have someone on the pitch who has played either against, or with, the majority of the German team for the last three years? Especially one who has been regularly scoring and assisting against them.

So Kai Havertz who scored the winning goal for you team in the Champions League final is an average player? Interesting.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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given England’s horrific record against every big team in tournament football, I can’t see this ending in anything but tears. No wins over a top nation since 2002. No knockout wins against a top nation since 1996 (on pens)
 

RobinLFC

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So Kai Havertz who scored the winning goal for you team in the Champions League final is an average player? Interesting.
Why does that matter? Divock Origi, Yannick Carrasco and Marco Asensio all have scored a CL final goal recently as well.
 

Cloud7

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If it were another competent manager, or hell, even a manager with some balls, then I would expect this England team to go through ahead of the current iteration of Loew’s Germany. However, I expect Southgate to set up extremely defensively, barely take the game to Germany at all and go out with a whimper.
 

GhastlyHun

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If it were another competent manager, or hell, even a manager with some balls, then I would expect this England team to go through ahead of the current iteration of Loew’s Germany. However, I expect Southgate to set up extremely defensively, barely take the game to Germany at all and go out with a whimper.
This looks the best course of action for you by far, judging from our group games.
 

Cloud7

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This looks the best course of action for you by far, judging from our group games.
Im not English. Just an outsider looking in who thinks Southgate is wasting a great generation of players :lol:

I get that France and Hungary showed a more defensive minded set up is probably the best way to get a result against Germany right now, but I think Southgate will skew too far in that direction and set up the team to offer almost nothing in attack. Added to that, Germany had more than a few chances to get back into the game against France even with how they set up.
 

RedSky

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I just don't see us creating enough chances to go through. We've been shackled to play soul destroying slow, defensive football and now none of our attacking players are in any kind of form. If Germany break our defense (all the teams we faced did have chances, were just poor at finishing) then we'll be out as I think we'll struggle to break them down and create anything meaningful.

Germany arent anything special, but at least they can score goals and have the right mindset. They've had their major wobble and come through it, that was a good test of their character. We've just crawled into the knockout stages by doing the bare minimum possible. Really not ideal.
 

Irwin99

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Germany conceded 5 goals in 3 games (if France were more determined could make it 7 goals against in 3 games.)
England conceded 0 goals in 3 games.
xG tells the same story.

England has to hit the German defence.
To be fair the quality of the opponents does merit consideration; Germany have faced France, Portugal etc so the defence is bound to be under more pressure. I do think Kane and Sterling will have some joy though.
 

bosnian_red

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England will park the bus and play on the counter... which could work well against Germany. I think they'll lose ultimately as I think Germany will be more focused and motivated in the knockout stages, and they have plenty of quality in their team, but its one that could go either way.

Southgate would do well to pick his best counter attackers (Rashford and Sancho) in attack but I don't think he will. There will be space to run in behind Germany's defence so picking Foden would be a mistake IMO.
 

Master of Chaos

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Im not English. Just an outsider looking in who thinks Southgate is wasting a great generation of players :lol:

I get that France and Hungary showed a more defensive minded set up is probably the best way to get a result against Germany right now, but I think Southgate will skew too far in that direction and set up the team to offer almost nothing in attack. Added to that, Germany had more than a few chances to get back into the game against France even with how they set up.
German here, Löw played a 3-5-1-2 formation with slow CBs like Ginter. He was also involved in most goals we conceded to counters. As soon as he went off for a practical 4-2-4 approach, the side was balanced, Hungary counldn't go wide to counter anymore. I think Löw will stick to 4-2-4. The other problem was Sane. He was AFK in all of the group stage matches. Löw was mad at him yesterday. I don't think he'll start again. You'll be facing:
----------------------------------------Neuer-----------------------------------
Kimmich-----------Hummels--------Rüdiger--------------Gosens
-------------------------Kroos-------Gündogan----------------------------
Havertz------------Goretzka/Müller-------------Müller/Musiala
----------------------------Gnabry/Werner-----------------------------------
 

Blackwidow

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Bundesliga is not a benchmark though. Werner do you remember. Even batshuayi scored 9 in 11 games.
The performance from players in special systems varies from clubs to clubs and leagues and leagues. The setup at Leipzig was just different from that of Chelsea - and Werner's performance has nothing to do with Bundesliga or EPL. He just converted his chances last season and did not this. He had enough of them so it does not seem more difficult to get this chances... He even was more often offside in Germany than he was in England... There is players whose performance varies less because of their skillsets - and the least players are consistently great every season.

But Werner will not start.

I know that the Bayern players love to play in England :cool:
 

IRN-BRUno

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After Southgate's comments following the last game I'm guessing that Trippier will likely start because of his set-pieces.
 

UnitedSofa

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A post about England on a Man Utd forum, name checking a British, very small in terms of popularity with the whole of the UK, broadcaster, in Sam Matterface and I could almost guarantee not everyone in the UK would know Matterface is. Yet a football fan from the UK would be more inclined to know who he is compared to someone over seas.

So forgive me for assuming you were English.

Presuming I'm English?
It's going to be glorious to see the likes of Lineker, Jenas, Wright and Matterface in tears when the inevitable happens and England get dumped out.
 

Rajiztar

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And do you think it maybe useful to have someone on the pitch who has played either against, or with, the majority of the German team for the last three years? Especially one who has been regularly scoring and assisting against them.

So Kai Havertz who scored the winning goal for you team in the Champions League final is an average player? Interesting.
Kai havertz still had below average season and not shown consistent performances yet. There are flash of brilliance here and there.Yes he win us champions league but that not hide the fact he had bad season. I wouldn't bank on him until he showed consistency.

Just because Sancho had numbers in bundesliga doesn't mean he should start. Foden had numbers in pl but he didn't show anything for england. Manager watched him train may be just may be other players(grealish and saka) performed well over Sancho.

I have nothing against Sancho in fact he is childhood chelsea fan why should I demean him. Sancho if selected may win england matches but there is no proof he deserved to start because he was shocking in recent games when he played for england.
 
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Rajiztar

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The performance from players in special systems varies from clubs to clubs and leagues and leagues. The setup at Leipzig was just different from that of Chelsea - and Werner's performance has nothing to do with Bundesliga or EPL. He just converted his chances last season and did not this. He had enough of them so it does not seem more difficult to get this chances... He even was more often offside in Germany than he was in England... There is players whose performance varies less because of their skillsets - and the least players are consistently great every season.

But Werner will not start.

I know that the Bayern players love to play in England :cool:
Yes I agreed Werner may not be useful for his national team and he struggled in pl to score but had great Bundesliga numbers . I can't fault his performances though for chelsea.

I told the poster in context Bundesliga stats not always reflect players ability as a whole. Many found fault in Southgate to not pick Sancho but he had his reasons to not play him.