Dean Henderson has to be our #1 next season? Poll added

[Classical Mechanic]

Forget the likes of Obalak and some of the better keepers that play abroad for a second. Is Henderson better than Nick Pope?

If we can get Ter Stegan or Obalek then we should and move Henderson on. Can we get a keeper of that calibre? One we could go for is Onana at Ajax. He's one of those that could be one of the best or a bit of a plonker like Barthez. He's pretty 'eccentric' in his play.

 

[11101]

It's not meaningless. It's the same league, same opponents. There's more pressure at United though. I've never said he should have the number 1 shirt from the start. I think they should both be allow a stright shootout for the jersey next season. DDG needs the competition and Henderson deserves a shot at the the shirt.

Then we agree. He deserves a shot but De Gea is still our number 1.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

To be fair the stats dont appear to back that up. See this thread that was posted earlier today by @crossy1686

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In a nutshell, his shot stopping has been well below his best, especially having been so outstanding in previous years. He's stopping shots that you would expect a goalkeeper to save, but not much more than that. The decline is pretty obvious, the issue is whether he can turn it around.

Thanks but being below his best and being a liability are two different things especially when your best is arguably the best shot stopper in the world?

He’s not costing us anything more than expected. Which to me suggests overall there isn’t an issue that some would like to make out. I agree that he’s not had his superhero season but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly in crisis and needs replacing what is far more likely is that this previous World class GK will return to being WC again at 29 he’s not old enough to be worried this is the end.

In addition to the above post

https://www.givemesport.com/1535735-premier-league-goalkeepers-ranked-by-expected-goal-statistics

That was up to January.

So -0.18 of EXP goals in Jan. What about for the season in all comps?

Here’s some other stats for you.

-12 clean sheets in the PL 6th in league (1 more and he’ll be 3rd)
-72.5% save percentage 6th in league
-33.3% clean sheet percentage 6th in league

Has he been outstanding no. Has he been a serious issue absolutely not.

https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepers/Premier-League-Stats

 

[Red_toad]

No vote from me. I'll let the manager decide this as I played in the field and do not know much about goalkeeping. I would also bet that 99% of you do not know much about the GK position.

So Mount v Chelsea, Sarr V Watford as examples, we can't judge this as bad keeping because we need to know more about the position?

It's pretty obvious to anyone who watches the sport of a regualr basis, that Dave isn't the keeper he used to be and is now very error prone.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Thanks but being below his best and being a liability are two different things especially when your best is arguably the best shot stopper in the world?

He’s not costing us anything more than expected. Which to me suggests overall there isn’t an issue that some would like to make out. I agree that he’s not had his superhero season but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly in crisis and needs replacing what is far more likely is that this previous World class GK will return to being WC again at 29 he’s not old enough to be worried this is the end.


So -0.18 of EXP goals in Jan. What about for the season in all comps?

Here’s some other stats for you.

-12 clean sheets in the PL 6th in league (1 more and he’ll be 3rd)
-72.5% save percentage 6th in league
-33.3% clean sheet percentage 6th in league

Has he been outstanding no. Has he been a serious issue absolutely not.

https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepers/Premier-League-Stats

xGA is more interesting than those stats because it indicates if he's letting in more than he should be against the average whilst those other stats can be more contingent on the team he plays for.

-0.18 is per 90 minutes so it would work out to roughly 7 goals over the course of the season, Liverpool have roughly the same xGA as a team but have this season but conceded about 8 (rounded) less than expected, this indicates what an outstanding goalkeeper may have done for us this season.

https://understat.com/league/EPL

Goalkeeper stats are harder to come by (must be in less demand) so I'm not saying that this is definitive and I'm talking in rough approximations with some speculation but it doesn't look good overall no matter how you slice and dice it.

Incidentally, when we finished 2nd under Jose, the season that DDG got in the world team of the year, United outperformed their xGA by the most since understat have been covering the PL, by 16 goals roughly! That's when DDG was at his incredible best. If we had that DDG this season we'd be a lot closer to the title

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2017

The question is if he can come back. I'm sceptical. Either way I think Henderson directly challenging him for the shirt next season is the best thing for both players.

 

[tombombadil]

How do you work that out?

Whilst he's done well for West Ham this year against his xGA the other chart shows him as the least 'commanding' keeper in the league, worse than DDG, and he's already proven himself to be poor at a top club despite being highly rated. I don't know that much about him but is he good with his feet? There are many aspects to goalkeeping. De Gea is actually very limited but was this incredible shot stopper but now that has disappeared, what are you left with?

You should tell me. You said De Gea was the worst in the league on the basis of that one chart.

 

[tombombadil]

Thanks but being below his best and being a liability are two different things especially when your best is arguably the best shot stopper in the world?

He’s not costing us anything more than expected. Which to me suggests overall there isn’t an issue that some would like to make out. I agree that he’s not had his superhero season but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly in crisis and needs replacing what is far more likely is that this previous World class GK will return to being WC again at 29 he’s not old enough to be worried this is the end.


So -0.18 of EXP goals in Jan. What about for the season in all comps?

Here’s some other stats for you.

-12 clean sheets in the PL 6th in league (1 more and he’ll be 3rd)
-72.5% save percentage 6th in league
-33.3% clean sheet percentage 6th in league

Has he been outstanding no. Has he been a serious issue absolutely not.

https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepers/Premier-League-Stats

Excellent. We don't go 19 matches unbeaten with the worst keeper in the league.

Lots of people are mixing in stats from last season and ONLY early this season, when the WHOLE team was underperforming, ignoring that we are in July now. If we look at just this season until now, it paints a totally different picture.

 

[TheNewEra]

De Gea needs to figure out where he is screwing up on a weekly basis, he's far off the best keepers in the world.

Chelsea was a horror show, it wasn't just one error, it was 3.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Excellent. We don't go 19 matches unbeaten with the worst keeper in the league.

Lots of people are mixing in stats from last season and ONLY early this season, when the WHOLE team was underperforming, ignoring that we are in July now. If we look at just this season until now, it paints a totally different picture.

I suspect what you’d find now or even at the end of the season is that De Gea has just had an average season and people are slating him as if he’s one of the worst keepers which is statistically not true.

I don’t understand why people cannot be objective and get emotional by becoming hyperbolic in their assessments.

It’s best summed up as De Gea has been ok this season. Simple. But heaven forbid we have anyone with an ok season.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Thanks but being below his best and being a liability are two different things especially when your best is arguably the best shot stopper in the world?

He’s not costing us anything more than expected. Which to me suggests overall there isn’t an issue that some would like to make out. I agree that he’s not had his superhero season but that doesn’t mean he’s suddenly in crisis and needs replacing what is far more likely is that this previous World class GK will return to being WC again at 29 he’s not old enough to be worried this is the end.

The stats seem to show he's a mid-table keeper over the last two seasons. I'm not sure we'd be happy with a mid-table striker or defender, for example, so I'm not sure why we should be happy with a mid-table keeper. The argument is that he'll get his form back eventually, but that's two poor seasons he's had now. I was arguing that point this time last year, but his form hasn't returned yet. Given that we have another keeper on our books that's outperforming him, how long do you think he should wait til we try the other guy out?

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[tombombadil]

I suspect what you’d find now or even at the end of the season is that De Gea has just had an average season and people are slating him as if he’s one of the worst keepers which is statistically not true.

I don’t understand why people cannot be objective and get emotional by becoming hyperbolic in their assessments.

It’s best summed up as De Gea has been ok this season. Simple. But heaven forbid we have anyone with an ok season.

Exactly. From roughly Feb until Dec last year, the team has been performing very poorly which coincides with our horrible results end of last season and first half this season. Of course De Gea's stats look bad. But you have to look at the team as a whole and over multiple seasons. EVERYONE was bad by their standards. To single De Gea out is nonsense. And all that hyperbole about De Gea, even more so. If people are going to do that, then I can also only look at De Gea's stats from end Jan until now and call him good.

The fairer assessment would be that he has been bang average for us with very good and very bad moments this season. I only hope Ole, the coaches and De Gea can work something to cut out the mistakes. In the next few seasons, we can assess if Henderson is any good and make some decisions a few years down the road. We have 3 - 4 years to decide and slowly make that transition.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I still have full trust in De Gea.

 

[tombombadil]

The stats seem to show he's a mid-table keeper over the last two seasons. I'm not sure we'd be happy with a mid-table striker or defender, for example, so I'm not sure why we should be happy with a mid-table keeper. The argument is that he'll get his form back eventually, but that's two poor seasons he's had now. I was arguing that point this time last year, but his form hasn't returned yet. Given that we have another keeper on our books that's outperforming him, how long do you think he should wait til we try the other guy out?

Then you'll be selling almost the whole team, because almost everyone has been performing below par. There's a reason we were 6th before the lockdown.

 

[GiddyUp]

At Sheffield United. For one season. It's a totally meaningless comparison. For his own good he needs to follow a proper succession plan instead of daft ideas of giving him the shirt from day 1 of the league season.

De Gea was basically thrown right in. How do we know that Dean Henderson won't slot in better than a scrawny spanish kid.

 

[GiddyUp]

I still have full trust in De Gea.

How many more howlers will it take for you to lose trust? One every 5?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You should tell me. You said De Gea was the worst in the league on the basis of that one chart.

I think I said he’s below average to among the worse by many measures this season.

 

[mitchmouse]

Not sure what the answer is. what I am sure of it is no longer David de Gea. Some people still echo the old nonsense that keepers have to be older, while telling us that Jude Bellingham is the greatest thing of all time. The old adage is nearer the mark: if you're good enough, you're old enough.

Part of me wants Hendo, even if only because we will lose him if we dither about. Part of me thinks Romero has been the perfect professional, who, having done little wrong, deserves his chance. Part of me wonders if we should look abroad (maybe Oblak although it might be better to take someone with Prem league experience and Oblak does tend to parry rather than hold - that said, some of his saves are nothing short of astounding).

DDG has seemingly lost the ability to concentrate and I've always hated his going with feet first so often. His confidence must be shot to hell - mine in him certainly is. He has cost us so many goals in the past two seasons and it can't be allowed to go on

 

[DanClancy]

De Gea since December has been chronic, he's been the worst keeper in the premier league.

 

[Andycoleno9]

How many more howlers will it take for you to lose trust? One every 5?

I don't write off world class players after one season. Especially gk who is 29 only. Last season wasn't great also but it was not bad. This year he has average season and i don't mind replacing him next two games with Romero.
But next year he should be no1 without question for me

 

[EwanI Ted]

Then you'll be selling almost the whole team, because almost everyone has been performing below par. There's a reason we were 6th before the lockdown.

Man for man we're improving. Ole has gotten rid of Lukaku, Sanchez, Smalling, Herrera, Fellaini, Young, Valencia, Darmien and Rojo and we expect Lingard, Mata and Jones to go this summer too. Its resulted in short term problems with form, but in almost every position we're buying better players, and long term that bodes well. Im not clear why you think this policy shouldn't apply to our keeper.

 

[mitchmouse]

I don't write off world class players after one season. Especially gk who is 29 only. Last season wasn't great also but it was not bad. This year he has average season and i don't mind replacing him next two games with Romero.
But next year he should be no1 without question for me

it's been going on for the best part of two whole seasons, if you ask me...

 

[EwanI Ted]

I don't write off world class players after one season. Especially gk who is 29 only. Last season wasn't great also but it was not bad. This year he has average season and i don't mind replacing him next two games with Romero.
But next year he should be no1 without question for me

To be fair, this is his second poor season, not his first. Last season he had very similar stats and a similar tendency to commit errors in key games.

 

[Verminator]

David's distribution and command of his area have always been his weaknesses, but his superhuman shot-stopping has elevated him to be spoken of as world-class.
If you take that away, as seems to be the way now, you are left with a keeper that poses more problems than they solve.

I've not seen enough of Henderson to nail my flag, but I have seen him relieve pressure on his defence by coming and claiming crosses. That is a big deal for a goalie.
We often look like we will concede late on, when the corner count increases.

It isn't something DeGea will change, so do we still ignore that on the strength of his shot-stopping ability?
Only if he is still well above average in that department.
His form has given people the right to start asking questions.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

It is not just going by the stats. He doesn't look confortable and just looks error prone.
That is going to cost us a lot.
Henderson looks much better granted noone knows how he would deal with the extra pressure here.

 

[mu4c_20le]

To be fair, this is his second poor season, not his first. Last season he had very similar stats and a similar tendency to commit errors in key games.

You keep bringing up stats but this isn't American sports and we don't play moneyball.

 

[The Cat]

We aren't going to sell him - we can't for that matter so he is here next season. We can only hope the short upcoming break lets him refocus because he looks mentally shot at the moment. The mistakes he is making aren't really to do with reflexes slowing down they are basic errors. I don't see a reason at the moment why he can't get back to good form next season - I would however drop him for the last two matches there is too much at stake for another howler to potentially cost us CL.

 

[Dante]

We're already paying both their wages. United hold all the cards.

Keep both of them at the club next season and let them fight it out for first place. DDG should start the first game. Then after he inevitably throws the ball into his own net in the first couple of weeks, Henderson can take over.

If Henderson is just as bad, we've lost nothing. If he's better, we've gained. If DDG regains his form, we've also gained. If neither is up to it, we'll buy someone new in 2021.

Whatever the outcome, there aren't really any downsides.

 

[EwanI Ted]

You keep bringing up stats but this isn't American sports and we don't play moneyball.

Are you suggesting he's playing well if we ignore the stats?

 

[mu4c_20le]

Are you suggesting he's playing well if we ignore the stats?

That's a pretty loaded question you got there buddy. I think if we ignore stats he is still the best keeper at the club.

 

[EwanI Ted]

That's a pretty loaded question you got there buddy. I think if we ignore stats he is still the best keeper at the club.

If you ignore the stats, you can believe anything.

 

[Oldyella]

Anyone watching the build up on prime?

Doing some daft interview format online with him and McBurnie and a question was about heading stats (And McBurnie's lack of them)

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He seems so confident, really think the additional pressure wouldnt affect him.

 

[Stretender]

If you ignore the stats, you can believe anything.
[/QUOT
Henderson is not ready.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

A large than normal % of United fans watching Sheff Utd this evening?

 

[RazorOz]

Oblak has a buyout of €100m. If we can raise that money from the sales of De Gea and Henderson then it's worth it.

It's €120m so like £108m. Absolutely no chance we would raise that selling De Gea and Henderson, doubt we'd even get half of it.

 

[Verminator]

A large than normal % of United fans watching Sheff Utd this evening?

I would do but can't find it.
7 channels showing the Brighton v Newcastle game though.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I would do but can't find it.
7 channels showing the Brighton v Newcastle game though.

It’s on amazon prime, if you have that?

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Henderson should be absolutely ready. If he’s not, then his level is not United. He is 23 ffs. De Gea came here when he was 21. I dont think he can be worse than De Gea atm unless he intentionally tries to.

Because professional sportspeople intentionally set out to be crap...

 

[Verminator]

It’s on amazon prime, if you have that?

Thanks bud. I do.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I would do but can't find it.
7 channels showing the Brighton v Newcastle game though.

Just started watching it on a river.

Henderson looks pretty safe...it's the drinks break