Decades Draft Tournament : NM vs AldoRaine18

[Moby]

To be honest, Henry will probably drift a little to the left as well. Blokhin will probably move a little more central at the time. I can see that right fullback and CB pairing being really targeted by those two.

I also HATE to say this as I love Vidic, but I reckon Henry's pace will give him trouble too.

Trouble how mate?

1. He's not going to get the sort of service he would love. Remember he always had a Bergkamp playing him through, Zidane here but he is being managed by Rijkaard. That again leaves the interchange a lot less effective.

2. Not a lot of space left behind out backline for Henry to exploit. I clearly understand how that would have been suicidal which is why we are playing to our strengths while negating yours at the same time.

3. There is tons and tons and tons of energy in my midfield players who would be rushing back and sorting any danger by doubling up.

A lot will come down to one of your attackers using individual brilliance to score like Henry scoring from distance or something like that as I do not see a clear route towards goal through buildups going there.

 

[antohan]

The transition would clearly not be one dimensional here. I had Effenberg in my plans before I went for Gullit and it was mainly because I needed someone with a good passing range alongside Rijkaard while also being great defensively. Bremner slotted right into that role so I picked him despite know I'd have to play a lesser known fullback/keeper. I made that sacrifice as I was pretty confident about Bremner's passing and playmaking ability. He has the range and accuracy to pick out players in advanced positions without much of a trouble. He's no Pirlo but he can do that to a pretty good level. But if you think that's a bit far fetched, the 3 behind Muller are all going to drop deep without much problem, get it back and carry it out.

Not far fetched but a case of putting all eggs in one basket. Rely on Bremner and NMs two-man midfield can shut him out, rely on Gullit and Nedved dropping deep to build up the play more gradually and he is up shit creek because there's no singular focal point to be addressed. I think the strength those two give you is they were adept midfielders, not what they can do as "wingers". I see you effectively playing 4-4-1-1 when recovering possession.

About Bergmark, I wish I could have shown you some videos but I am still in India and have the worst internet connection possible. He was the best RB in that WC, probably because Djalma only played the final but after him he was the best of that time, at least that is what I have read so far. Plus the fact that his two most known qualities were man marking and pace, that really makes me think he would not be "raped" against Blokhin.

Off the top of my head the scoreline makes me wonder but, in fairness, IIRC most of the danger and goals came from the other flank. Bugger all he could do about that I guess.

 

[Moby]

By the way who exactly is NM's free kick taker? I can boast of having one of the best of all time in my team in Zico!

 

[Brwned]

Indeed, Bossis seems to miss out on these drafts quite frequently iirc.

 

[NM]

By the way who exactly is NM's free kick taker? I can boast of having one of the best of all time in my team in Zico!

I have the best all time keeper in Schmikes. I'm not too worried about anything your forwards throw up.

(Engaging in hyperbole battles is always fun).

I love how you don't even mention him and Figueroa as you know you have no answer to them. I'd also love ifRijkarrd is focussed on izou as Luis Suarez will get forward unmarked!

 

[Theon]

Figueroa is better than Baresi and Nesta, not 'easily' though.

I am sure there are plenty who disagree with that. Baresi is considered the best of all time, and I wouldn't put Nesta far off that.


Anyway, think I might go for NM - Henry is quite possibly the worst striker for Vidic to go up against and despite Muller being considered the better player I think Henry will have more success in this match.

Blokhin and Lizarazu is an awesome flank on the left as well

Close though, Zico vs Zidane is pretty even IMO but Aldo has Rijkaard

 

[Fergus' son]

That's the problem with these all-time drafts. Every player from yore is painted as some sort of combination of Baresi, Matthaus and Ronaldo. If managers aren't credible enough to provide an accurate assessment of their players, it's hard to take any of their arguments seriously.

In saying that, I'm a big fan of Figueroa and Lizarazu, albeit there is a better French left-back who didn't even make the cut.

The two are quite different in the way they played the role though so I don't think it was a case of either/or for NM.

 

[NM]

I think I'm doing ok in the thread battle but losing the votes battle right now. I like playing Aldo though. Nice easy conversation instead of crazy insults!

 

[Fergus' son]

I am sure there are plenty who disagree with that. Baresi is considered the best of all time, and I wouldn't put Nesta far off that.


Anyway, think I might go for NM - Henry is quite possibly the worst striker for Vidic to go up against and despite Muller being considered the better player I think Henry will have more success in this match.

Blokhin and Lizarazu is an awesome flank on the left as well

Close though, Zico vs Zidane is pretty even IMO but Aldo has Rijkaard

Probably those who have seen far too little of Figueroa, IMO. I don't think Baresi is considered the best of all time either, Scirea kept him out of the Italy team til he decided to retire, both he and Figueroa are more highly regarded than Baresi in the grand scheme I believe.

 

[Moby]

I have the best all time keeper in Schmikes. I'm not too worried about anything your forwards throw up.

(Engaging in hyperbole battles is always fun).

I love how you don't even mention him and Figueroa as you know you have no answer to them. I'd also love ifRijkarrd is focussed on izou as Luis Suarez will get forward unmarked!

You cannot "not worry" against Zico's free kicks mate. They are always a threat.

I did mention him in my first reply to you. I can agree to the fact that he can handle Muller in 1 v 1, but why would you do that? I have one of the best partnerships up front in the draft, both the players possess insane positioning and finishing, so man marking would only get you in more trouble. As I said, if you man mark Muller with Figueroa, you have the braveheart John Terry looking at a darting Zico who can score a goal in a million possible ways with the likes of Gullit/Nedved putting the ball across for him to latch on.

Now, what is your answer for Alves against Nedved? Particularly as you are looking to play on the front foot, looking to dominate possession with Suarez and Zidane in which scenario Alves would inevitably bomb forward and Nedved will look at a full flank to run on to.

Will Johnstone help him out as much as say Nedved will help Zambrotta out? How much protection does Alves has against The Czech Cannon?

 

[Theon]

That's the problem with these all-time drafts. Every player from yore is painted as some sort of combination of Baresi, Matthaus and Ronaldo.

So fecking true

 

[Theon]

Probably those who have seen far too little of Figueroa, IMO. I don't think Baresi is considered the best of all time either, Scirea kept him out of the Italy team til he decided to retire, both he and Figueroa are more highly regarded than Baresi in the grand scheme I believe.

Are they balls, by the majority of people Baresi is definitely considered better than Sciera.

Oh right, have you seen a lot of Figueroa? What makes you think he was better than Baresi?

 

[Moby]

Not far fetched but a case of putting all eggs in one basket. Rely on Bremner and NMs two-man midfield can shut him out, rely on Gullit and Nedved dropping deep to build up the play more gradually and he is up shit creek because there's no singular focal point to be addressed. I think the strength those two give you is they were adept midfielders, not what they can do as "wingers". I see you effectively playing 4-4-1-1 when recovering possession.



Off the top of my head the scoreline makes me wonder but, in fairness, IIRC most of the danger and goals came from the other flank. Bugger all he could do about that I guess.

Yeah that sounds about right. Nah never relied on Bremner completely but it was important to mention that one of the 2 CMs has a good passing range and accuracy which will end up as one of the ways to carry out the transition. Never meant it to be the only way.

 

[antohan]

Off the top of my head the scoreline makes me wonder but, in fairness, IIRC most of the danger and goals came from the other flank. Bugger all he could do about that I guess.

Just checked. Indeed, it was my man Garrincha giving them a torrid time assisting the first two goals and hitting the top of the bar with a cheeky lob.

I assume he is the one trying to recover for the third, which would indicate he was indeed pacy. The fourth goal he is probably the one rushing off the post that Zagallo makes run straight past him (top marks for speed again, but he got dummied nicely ) and the fifth he was probably one of those thereabouts before the assist but that was an unexpected and cracking ball to be fair.

 

[NM]

aldo,
can't reply to everything. Have to be careful when I'm on the site. I just want to say Zico and Muller is great. But for me, Zidane is as good as Zico if not better. The difference between Muller and Henry (and I'm not putting Muller down) is that Henry will make something from nothing, while I heard Muller being described a sa short bald dude until the ball gets into the box or something similar. This was from the all time draft. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but I'm just pointing it out.

 

[Cutch]

Figueroa is better than Baresi and Nesta, not 'easily' though, and Lizarazu is definitely better than 'decent'.

True, but doing the same in retaliation is hardly worth it.

I don't rate Lizarazu as a standout left back in the context of this draft which is what i meant by decent.

 

[Fergus' son]

Are they balls, by the majority of people Baresi is definitely considered better than Sciera.

Oh right, have you seen a lot of Figueroa? What makes you think he was better than Baresi?

Yeah, I'v seen a lot of him, mostly recently. Can't be arsed discussing him vs Baresi in this thread, but I think he is better.

Most modern fans would consider Baresi better than Scirea probably, the Italian national manager didn't though and plenty of people that experienced both say Scirea too.

I only offered my opinion that Figueroa is better than Baresi/Nesta, you're the one acting as if Baresi being considered the best of all time is a fact, so where's your proof?

 

[Moby]

aldo,
can't reply to everything. Have to be careful when I'm on the site. I just want to say Zico and Muller is great. But for me, Zidane is as good as Zico if not better. The difference between Muller and Henry (and I'm not putting Muller down) is that Henry will make something from nothing, while I heard Muller being described a sa short bald dude until the ball gets into the box or something similar. This was from the all time draft. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but I'm just pointing it out.

Nah my argument was not that Zico is better than Zidane even though I believe that (cue for people to tell me that I hate Zidane ) but Zico while being as good as playmaker as anyone was a great goal scorer and scored everywhere he went. He scored at a better rate than Platini in the same league while playing for fecking Udinese! So that extra goal threat is what should worry you. Even if Zidane manages to pull the strings, which Zico would also do, he would never provide that amazing goal threat that Zico does.

Yeah Henry probably has more qualities in his skillset than Muller but then Muller doesn't need to do all that, he is in a perfect set up with extremely creative players around him who can put it on a platter for him and there is not one better than Muller in that situation. You don't score 68 goals in 62 international games and over 650 goals in 700 odd games for nothing! He doesn't need to make something out of nothing, that is what the likes of Zico are there for.

 

[Moby]

Just checked. Indeed, it was my man Garrincha giving them a torrid time assisting the first two goals and hitting the top of the bar with a cheeky lob.

I assume he is the one trying to recover for the third, which would indicate he was indeed pacy. The fourth goal he is probably the one rushing off the post that Zagallo makes run straight past him (top marks for speed again, but he got dummied nicely ) and the fifth he was probably one of those thereabouts before the assist but that was an unexpected and cracking ball to be fair.

Thanks for digging that up mate. Can't watch that but yeah good to know what I read was not wrong.

 

[Balu]

Yeah, I'v seen a lot of him, mostly recently. Can't be arsed discussing him vs Baresi in this thread, but I think he is better.

Most modern fans would consider Baresi better than Scirea probably, the Italian national manager didn't though and plenty of people that experienced both say Scirea too.

I only offered my opinion that Figueroa is better than Baresi/Nesta, you're the one acting as if Baresi being considered the best of all time is a fact, so where's your proof?

That's not really a fair comparison though. He was only 22 at the world cup in 82 and then stayed at Milan when they went down in Serie B for 2 seasons. Baresi's peak should be compared with Scirea's and that's not when both competed for the same position in the nationalteam. I also always thought that Baresi is seen as the best defender of all time (if we exclude Beckenbauer, who's a bit difficult to compare).

Agree, I preferred my fire and ice absurd scenario but no one laughed at it

I did

 

[antohan]

I am sure there are plenty who disagree with that. Baresi is considered the best of all time, and I wouldn't put Nesta far off that.

The main sticking point was the unsubstantiated hyperbole. If I had to pick just one defender Figueroa was a more complete defender than either of those. I would have Baresi very close though and probably ahead subject to partner. Once you consider the four you have to take into account the importance of organising the defence and Baresi was immense at that. The individual vs. the collective... surround Baresi with crap defenders and you will wish you had Figueroa instead, unlikely to happen on here though.

Agree I'd rate him higher than Scirea, the keeping out of the NT is really about different ages and peaks IMO. But you would want Scirea in that Italy 82 defence ahead of Baresi, much like you would want Baresi in the Milan one. i.e. no room for hyperbole with this personnel and a lot of room for personal preference.

Anyway, think I might go for NM - Henry is quite possibly the worst striker for Vidic to go up against and despite Muller being considered the better player I think Henry will have more success in this match.

NM did say though that Henry would drift left (i.e. away from Vidic), which I find bizarre as he has Blokhin coming there and Zidane quite able to do it as well.

Figueroa owned Muller in the very World Cup Muller won, just saying

 

[Fergus' son]

That's not really a fair comparison though. He was only 22 at the world cup in 82 and then stayed at Milan when they went down in Serie B for 2 seasons. Baresi's peak should be compared with Scirea's and that's not when both competed for the same position in the nationalteam. I also always thought that Baresi is seen as the best defender of all time (if we exclude Beckenbauer, who's a bit difficult to compare).


I did

Fair points but I still am confident that there are at least as many that rate Scirea higher than Baresi as the ther way round, Baresi probably more renowned for pure defensive work whilst Scirea is considered to be the better player.

Anyway, this is way off topic. Let's at least agree that Figueroa is the best defender on the pitch and one of the greatest of all time.

 

[antohan]

while I heard Muller being described a sa short bald dude until the ball gets into the box or something similar. This was from the all time draft. Obviously, that's an exaggeration, but I'm just pointing it out.

Surely the poster was thinking about a bad mix of Muller and Uwe Seeler?

 

[Diver]

I voted for Aldo. It was a really close one but I felt that the team had a slightly better balance.

Both teams are great though.

 

[Theon]

Yeah, I'v seen a lot of him, mostly recently. Can't be arsed discussing him vs Baresi in this thread, but I think he is better.

Most modern fans would consider Baresi better than Scirea probably, the Italian national manager didn't though and plenty of people that experienced both say Scirea too.

I only offered my opinion that Figueroa is better than Baresi/Nesta, you're the one acting as if Baresi being considered the best of all time is a fact, so where's your proof?

Surprised you have seen that much of Figueroa, there seems to be very little footage knocking about.

Baresi has more caps than Scirea so Italian managers must have rated him I reckon mate, and Scirea is 7 years older... Of course he kept a young Baresi out of the team. The fact that keeping Baresi out of the team for a while is always used to credit Scirea demonstrated how good Baresi was.

You stated Figueroa was better than Baresi and Nesta just as authoritatively as I said the opposite,

Figueroa is better than Baresi and Nesta, not 'easily' though, and Lizarazu is definitely better than 'decent'.

Both just giving our opinions. I stand by the fact that most people consider Baresi the better player.. Not sure how to prove it but it wouldn't be hard to find 20 rankings online and I bet every one has Baresi ahead of Figueroa. I'm not saying that proves anything, but it is in line with what I would expect people to say if you ask them.

 

[Moby]

Figueroa owned Muller in the very World Cup Muller won, just saying

Muller didn't have Zico troubling Figueroa's partner though.

 

[Fergus' son]

Surprised you have seen that much of Figueroa, there seems to be very little footage knocking about.

Baresi has more caps than Scirea so Italian managers must have rated him I reckon mate, and Scirea is 7 years older... Of course he kept a young Baresi out of the team. The fact that keeping Baresi out of the team for a while is always used to credit Scirea demonstrated how good Baresi was.

You stated Figueroa was better than Baresi and Nesta just as authoritatively as I said the opposite,



Both just giving out opinions. I stand by the fact that most people consider Baresi the better player.. Not sure how to prove it but it wouldn't be hard to find 20 rankings on line and I bet every one has Baresi ahead of Figueroa. I'm not saying that proves anything, but it is in line with what I would expect people to say if you ask them.

Nope, 'Figueroa is better than Baresi' is clearly the authors opinion, 'Baresi is considered the greatest of all time' implies that it's a widely known assertion, 'considered' by who? Some of the lists you mention all over the Internet have Baresi as better but there are as many that have Scirea as better...

Anyway, such a pointless discussion (in this thread)...

 

[antohan]

Muller didn't have Zico troubling Figueroa's partner though.

Oh absolutely, before the draft I put together the top XI considering the rules and I didn't have Pelé or Maradona there but Zico. Partly the 40s and 60s having more top end quality in other roles, but I would have to rate him very highly to do that!

 

[antohan]

Nope, 'Figueroa is better than Baresi' is clearly the authors opinion, 'Baresi is considered the greatest of all time' implies that it's a widely known assertion, 'considered' by who? Some of the lists you mention all over the Internet have Baresi as better but there are as many that have Scirea as better...

Anyway, such a pointless discussion...

Agree, all three are excellent defenders and who is best depends on the setup. I prefer Baresi in a four and Scirea in a five because he was indeed the better footballer IMO. I always cringe at the notion of taking Scirea on a four because it is all so reliant on the partner. Burgnich is as good as you could have found though!

But the one playing here is Figueroa and he is better than any other on the pitch, no doubt. It was a worthy discussion in that many wouldn't have a clue where to set the bar for Figueroa. Answer: very very high.

Agreed. Let's move on now and let the managers get on with it.

 

[Fergus' son]

Plus Matthaus helping out!

Yeah, agreed. Just watched the video of Figueroa vs Muller which I believe you put up during the last draft again! I love watching him.

 

[Theon]

Nope, 'Figueroa is better than Baresi' is clearly the authors opinion, 'Baresi is considered the greatest of all time' implies that it's a widely known assertion, 'considered' by who? Some of the lists you mention all over the Internet have Baresi as better but there are as many that have Scirea as better...

Anyway, such a pointless discussion...

As many? I literally just typed it in and these were on the front page, not one has Scirea as being better than Baresi.

Two of these look actually pretty good, not that it matters. I'm not trying to say he definitely is, just that it is the commonly held opinion. If you asked 100 football fans I reckon 95 would say Baresi was better. Some probably haven't even heard of Scirea.

Spoiler

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/127290-greatest-ever-football-top-10-centre-backs-of-all-time

http://discusssoccer.myfreeforum.org/archive/the-greatest-defenders-of-all-time__o_t__t_44.html - This one is actually really good by the looks of it

http://www.givemesport.com/352246-top-five-alltime-centrebacks

http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=268164[/SPOILER]

 

[Fergus' son]

As many? I literally just typed it in and these were on the front page, not one has Scirea as being better than Baresi.

Two of these look actually pretty good, not that it matters. I'm not trying to say he definitely is, just that it is the commonly held opinion. If you asked 100 football fans I reckon 95 would say Baresi was better. Some probably haven't even heard of Scirea.

Let's move on now and let the managers get on with it.

 

[Moby]

Oh absolutely, before the draft I put together the top XI considering the rules and I didn't have Pelé or Maradona there but Zico. Partly the 40s and 60s having more top end quality in other roles, but I would have to rate him very highly to do that!

So do I. I hate the fact that Brazilian fans consider him the scapegoat for the 82 WC fiasco. But then they just need a scapegoat everytime they lose a WC. Indeed that midfield not winning the world cup was a massive disappointment but then against that Italy team brimming with such determination, it was always tough to come up on top. Really wish they would have won though, rarely such a set of players are put together in one team.

On the player, really love watching him. Must be a great presence on the field and an inspiration to look up to. I've heard that he's had a lot of influence in Japan during his time there, would like to know more in detail about that.

 

[Fergus' son]

So do I. I hate the fact that Brazilian fans consider him the scapegoat for the 82 WC fiasco. But then they just need a scapegoat everytime they lose a WC. Indeed that midfield not winning the world cup was a massive disappointment but then against that Italy team brimming with such determination, it was always tough to come up on top. Really wish they would have won though, rarely such a set of players are put together in one team.

On the player, really love watching him. Must be a great presence on the field and an inspiration to look up to. I've heard that he's had a lot of influence in Japan during his time there, would like to know more in detail about that.

I think he's brilliant too.

I'm leaning towards Aldo certainly at the moment, but I think NM does have a chance of getting into the game so I'll wait til he can contribute a bit more before voting.

Both teams drafted well, but Aldos makes so much sense. Both teams have weak points with one of their CB and full backs pairings, Terry/Alves and Vidic/Zambrotta..

 

[antohan]

So do I. I hate the fact that Brazilian fans consider him the scapegoat for the 82 WC fiasco.

Do they? I lived in Brazil three years and never heard anyone say that, it was largely the CBs they blamed. Not the tactics as they loved them, just would rather have seen the CBs bail them out. They want it all, don't they? I lived in Rio though and no one there could conceivably have a go at him.

I've heard that he's had a lot of influence in Japan during his time there, would like to know more in detail about that.

I would expect that, he spent a lot of time there and what better coach and role model could the Japanese (not blessed with beefy physiques) look for? He is very passionate about Japan and there potential as a football nation. I actually had some dealings with him and his football schools in Rio, almost agreed to exchange the services my company provided for him being on our ads on TV but he kept going to Japan on a regular basis so it was hard to coordinate and he opted for just paying for the services Would have been quite a coup that.

 

[NM]

Bump. Come on lads. Keep the rally going!

 

[antohan]

Nothing much happening here. There's only four votes in it!

 

[NM]

Come on lads. At least those in the draft have to vote!

 

[Cutch]

I'll likely wait until the mornin. I'm siding marginally with Aldo at the min tbh, just think his front 4 could be too strong

 

[antohan]

Come on lads. At least those in the draft have to vote!

OK, I will then. I was waiting it out but can't see your sub turning the tide here.

Sorry mate but I do think Gullit-Nedved dropping into midfield will make it very hard for you to get anything here.

Henry is being underrated though, been there before when I had him That said, Zico-Muller will deliver with regular service.