Declan Rice

[sp_107]

Rice/Saul/Bruno would be amazing behind Rashford---Kane-Sancho ( Almost 300M new singnings but we can sell Martial/Pogba/Jesse/Henderson to balance the books)

 

[croadyman]

Rice/Saul/Bruno would be amazing behind Rashford---Kane-Sancho ( Almost 300M new singnings but we can sell Martial/Pogba/Jesse/Henderson to balance the books)

Yeah definitely a fantasy that can only ever happen on Football Manager

 

[RedRonaldo]

France always play a third central midfielder (normally Matuidi or Ndombele) on one of the wings when they have Pogba in there, so it's really not just Pogba and Kante. And that''s in the international scene, where the opposition is normally weaker and the tempo tends to be slower. Doing it in the PL is even more difficult.

If we want to drop one of our attacking wingers and play someone like McTominay or Shaw on the wing to give the two midfielders a lot of help, maybe we could make it work as well. But is it really worth it? Of course if we could find someone like Keane, would be perfect, but I know it’s highly unlikely.

Yes, but what I mean is, we can play Bruno as AM, Pogba as no.8, and then we play a strong DM behind. It could work, if we are able to find that DM. Both Fred and Mctominay is more box to box and not really very strong defensively, we basically need a younger Matic with legs.

 

[Bebestation]

We also won’t win the PL with double eights if they are Pogba and Bruno.

The term double pivot seems to be liberally applied with no consideration of what those two players are (or should be) doing. If we go down the route of one specialist no6 with two others in midfield, at least one of them has to be more defensively savvy than Bruno or Pogba.

That’s not necessarily to say it must be a double pivot but Bruno and Pogba will not provide balance no matter who you have at 6. Better to play 6-8-10 with a proper all-rounder at 8. We don’t have such a player but the closest we have is McT.

I don’t get this.

What exactly is so unbalanced about Rice, Pogba and Bruno Fernandes?

Bruno is a CM playing as a CAM in my opinion. (He is regarded as a CM in Portugal). We literally see him run all over the pitch whenever the ball is lost. He makes runs in to creative space rather than sticking to this CAM position all the time as if he was Ozil.

He is one of the most movement based players in our squad and for me - him starting a little deeper would just mean he has to move forward when he has the ball more so than running around like a mad man whenever he loses the ball further up the pitch.

If City could do it with 2 CAM’s in de Bruyne and David Silva - I don’t really see why we would struggle this much with 2 attacking minded CM (which is different) with much better defensive ability in them (in comparison to Silva and De Bruyne). I get that Pep’s team have the benefits of possession football- but again, we are not playing with 2 CAM and one 1 CDM. We are playing with 2 creative Centre midfielders that have routinely started deeper in their lives and they will be protected by a pure ball winning midfielder.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

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Whether or not we can make it work, I think Ole would be tempted to experiment with a DM, Bruno and Pogba more advanced than the double pivot after seeing him shine there and Pogba himself stating he loves playing at the attacking left

 

[flappyjay]

Don't think that's much a problem with France when they won the WC with Pogba and Kante in midfield. Maybe if we have a DM as strong as Kante, it would work perfectly for us too.

People keep forgetting Matuidis contribution from the world cup. He played as a defensive lm to help Kante with Pogbas defensive deficiencies. It would be difficult for any dm to cover for Pogba and Bruno, they are both too careless with the ball.

 

[Bebestation]

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Whether or not we can make it work, I think Ole would be tempted to experiment with a DM, Bruno and Pogba more advanced than the double pivot after seeing him shine there and Pogba himself stating he loves playing at the attacking left

I mean Grealish's transfer looks out of the market but players like him and VDB really need this type of CDM rather than one who runs around with energy leaving the space open whenever they do.

Even if Bruno, Pogba and Rice does not work - what Rice does is give us the option to try it the way Matic would have tried settling that if he was a bit a younger.


Whether its Rice or not- we need to realise the importance of replacing Matic in our squad rather than replacing Fred or Mctomminay.

It's a bit looked down when talking positive about Fred - but even Fred has the potential to improve attacking wise (his passing is good) when we find the replacement for Matic and have the ability to play him.

 

[Mr Smith]

I don't think that DM exists really.

Matic is/was a very good dedicated DM at Chelsea and also at United when Mourinho first brought him over in 2017. He also had a couple of very good seasons for us before his legs started going. But still, the Matic-Pogba midfield duo was problematic whenever tried in a 4-2-3-1 (usually with Lingard at #10) and Pogba was probably one of the most complained-about players during Mourinho's reign. Mourinho ended up playing 2 out of Herrera, Matic and Fellaini to create the foil for Pogba and we played a 4-3-3 without a #10 more than we played a 4-2-3-1 with a #10.

In other words, 28yo Matic could not alone provide a foil for Pogba and Lingard. 4 years later we have swapped Lingard for Fernandes but we still have the same core problem. We tried to replace Matic with the younger and more energetic Fred and/or McTominay but we still struggle to make it work with a #10 and Pogba in the midfield trio. It invariably creates too much work for the DM when Pogba plays like a #10 and starts trying to dribble out of the press in the middle, risking being dispossessed.

Is Rice so much better than 28yo Matic that he will solve the problem the latter couldn't? I personally don't think Rice is even as good yet as Matic was at his peak. I don't think such DM exists. I think playing Pogba and Fernandes in the middle is best left to games where we're expected to completely dominate, or games we're desperately chasing. Not for the majority EPL or CL games (especially away from OT) where we can expect periods of opposition pressure.

Yeah I think I agree with you, that world class DM just doesn't exist, and wouldn't necessarily solve the problem even if he did. On that basis, can't really justify going for Rice given the price tag. Out of curiosity, who would you go for instead?

 

[RedRonaldo]

People keep forgetting Matuidis contribution from the world cup. He played as a defensive lm to help Kante with Pogbas defensive deficiencies. It would be difficult for any dm to cover for Pogba and Bruno, they are both too careless with the ball.

I really don’t think it’s such a big problem playing strong DM with Pogba as no.8 and Bruno as no.10.
Pogba isn’t a passenger in DM, just that he likes to dribble in his own half which is the big problem.

If we play him as no.8, he would be amazing going forward and solid when tracking back too.

For example, in Juventus he used to have avg 2.2 tackle and 1.3 interception per game, which is quite high even for any top DM. His best season in Man Utd, he has 1.8 tackle and 1 interception per game, which is also good. In France 2018 WC, he had 2.2 tackle and 1 interception per game too. Which shows he is very solid defensively, apart from being amazing in attacking.

Point being, if he has a strong DM behind him, he would do amazing things up front, and at the same time contribute his part when he need to track back and defend too.

 

[Bebestation]

I really don’t think it’s such a big problem playing strong DM with Pogba as no.8 and Bruno as no.10.
Pogba isn’t a passenger in DM, just that he likes to dribble in his own half which is the big problem.

If we play him as no.8, he would be amazing going forward and solid when tracking back too.

For example, in Juventus he used to have avg 2.2 tackle and 1.3 interception per game, which is quite high even for any top DM. His best season in Man Utd, he has 1.8 tackle and 1 interception per game, which is also good. In France 2018 WC, he had 2.2 tackle and 1 interception per game too. Which shows he is very solid defensively, apart from being amazing in attacking.

Point being, if he has a strong DM behind him, he would do amazing things up front, and at the same time contribute his part when he need to track back and defend too.

People forget Bruno Fernandes's defensive contribution. He isnt exactly Ozil either.

 

[RedRonaldo]

People forget Bruno Fernandes's defensive contribution. He isnt exactly Ozil either.

True. He has avg 1.5 tackle and 0.7 interception per game. He actually contribute a lot defensively as a AM.

 

[justsomebloke]

I really don’t think it’s such a big problem playing strong DM with Pogba as no.8 and Bruno as no.10.
Pogba isn’t a passenger in DM, just that he likes to dribble in his own half which is the big problem.

If we play him as no.8, he would be amazing going forward and solid when tracking back too.

For example, in Juventus he used to have avg 2.2 tackle and 1.3 interception per game, which is quite high even for any top DM. His best season in Man Utd, he has 1.8 tackle and 1 interception per game, which is also good. In France 2018 WC, he had 2.2 tackle and 1 interception per game too. Which shows he is very solid defensively, apart from being amazing in attacking.

Point being, if he has a strong DM behind him, he would do amazing things up front, and at the same time contribute his part when he need to track back and defend too.

3.5 tackles+interventions/90 are not particularly good stats for a CM. And I do not think you can really credibly argue that Pogba is very solid defensively. He plainly isn't. Also, returns this year contradict that he's good as a No 8 in the pivot of a 4231. While he has had some good games, he has generally struggled with defensive lapses, vulnerability to pressing and difficulties in imposing himself offensively when playing from that position. He's worked well in the midfield line with France and Juventus, but it's a fairly key point there that they both play a three-man midfield line. That gives much more leeway and opportunity than a double pivot does.

I don't think better defence as such is really the main concern with the midfield pivot, especially not should we add a new CB. Rather, there are two other main problems connected with the pivot: Firstly, the ability to move the ball effectively up the pitch and maintain possession, secondly the need for more offensive input from the midfield. Freeing Pogba to take a more offensive role by supplementing him with the right kind of defensively oriented CM is one way of addressing that. But I'm not sure that's really going to work, because I don't think a single player can effectively handle the things Pogba don't do well alone, however good he may be. For a functioning pivot, both players need to an extent to be allrounders.

It seems clear that Ole is moving away from that solution, preferring to go with two allrounders in the pivot instead (ie, Fred and McTominay). I think that is actually the right solution, but that we need better players. Ie, an upgrade on McTominay. But that should not be a defensive specialist, but someone who can partner Fred more effectively and contribute offensively and in link-up, transitional, and build-up play in addition to defence.

 

[MadMike]

Yeah I think I agree with you, that world class DM just doesn't exist, and wouldn't necessarily solve the problem even if he did. On that basis, can't really justify going for Rice given the price tag. Out of curiosity, who would you go for instead?

For me there’s 2 midfielders in the squad that need fully replacing. Matic who is past it and VdB who is square peg in a round hole. With Pogba, Fernandes and Rashford in the squad we’re likely to keep playing counter-attacking football, so VdB’s simple give-and-go, short-pass, possession-based gameplay doesn’t suit us. For creative midfielders we need faster more direct players who can run with ball and play good first-rime balls over the top or through the defence.

Secondly, the obvious player in the starting XI that needs replacing is McTominay because all the stats show significantly less defensive contribution per 90mins than Fred while not showing any better ball possession or help in the transitions. He’s a marginally better runner with the ball due to his size/stride and a bit more of an aerial threat, but that’s about it. He trails Fred in everything else stats-wise.

The point that I’m building up to here, is that we need 2 midfielders really. One pure DM to replace Matic who will allows us to play Pogba and Bruno in certain games. The Rice or N’Didi type of player. The other player is an all-rounder #8 to fix the mistake of VdB’s acquisition and to better prepare us for the scenario where Pogba decides not to renew and leaves next summer.

The player that has more impressed me as pure DM in this league is N’Didi. Sumare from Lille also had an excellent season. Camavinga is also touted as good but haven’t watched him at all. As for #8s, there’s various players who could be that. I like Kessie, Tielemans, Wijnaldum, Barella, Locatelli.... there’s options there.

 

[charlenefan]

From what I'm reading West Ham aren't selling, not unless someone does put down 80m+ anyway

He doesn't seem in a rush to leave either especially off the back of a very good season for West Ham

A no go for this summer I think

 

[MadMike]

I really don’t think it’s such a big problem playing strong DM with Pogba as no.8 and Bruno as no.10.
Pogba isn’t a passenger in DM, just that he likes to dribble in his own half which is the big problem.

I'm sorry in advance, but when I read stuff like that I can only respond only in posts dripping with sarcasm.

It isn't such a big problem you say, but 2 managers and 4 different DMs (Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and Fred) in 5 years now have all failed to make it work. Remember, before Fernandes we had one of Lingard, Mkhitaryan or Mata playing at #10 and Mourinho tried in many different ways to make his preferred 4-2-3-1 work with Pogba at #8 and failed. He ended up using two DMs and playing 4-3-3 with Pogba the most advanced midfielder instead of playing with a #10. Ole has barely tried to accommodate Fernandes and Pogba in the middle, probably because he sees in training how it works out.

I guess none of those 4 DMs were strong enough for you to be a foil for Pogba, yet that significantly better DM is so super easy to find we must be idiots not having that sorted by now. Surely Rice is many levels above those 4 and he will do it, no problems. It's not that Pogba is not disciplined enough to play #8, it's the DMs.

His Juve and France managers must also have been idiots when they played him with 2 of Vidal, Marchisio, Khedira or Matuidi, Kante, N'Zonzi covering for him respectively. I guess none of these people know how good Pogba's work rate is with his 2.2 tackles per game and how well he can play the #8 with a single DM next to him and with a #10 in front him. The could have played him with Dybala or Payet at #10 in front of him but they chose not too, because they were all idiots missing the obvious. But you've got it sussed out easy.

Sometimes facts stare people in the face, yet the they choose to ignore them in favour of a delusion.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I'm sorry in advance, but when I read stuff like that I can only respond only in posts dripping with sarcasm.

It isn't such a big problem you say, but 2 managers and 4 different DMs (Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and Fred) in 5 years now have all failed to make it work. Remember, before Fernandes we had one of Lingard, Mkhitaryan or Mata playing at #10.

I guess none of those 4 DMs were strong enough for you to be a foil for Pogba, yet that significantly better DM is so super easy to find we must be idiots not having that sorted by now. Surely Rice is many levels above those 4 and he will do it, no problems. It's not that Pogba is not disciplined enough to play #8, it's the DMs.

His Juve and France managers must also have been idiots when they played him with 2 of Vidal, Marchisio, Khedira or Matuidi, Kante, N'Zonzi covering for him respectively. I guess none of these people know how good Pogba's work rate is with his 2.2 tackles per game and how well he can play the #8 with a #10 in front him. The could have played him with Dybala or Payet at #10 but they chose not too, because they were all idiots missing the obvious, but you've got it sussed out easy.

Sometimes facts stare people in the face yet the they choose to ignore them in favour of a delusion.

Even with us I saw the best of Pogba when paired with Matic and Herrera. And this season when we had McFred on the pitch. If you pair Pogba with a DM at the double pivot youre just limiting and wasting him. If you want Pogba and Bruno to play as 8s they have to know how to keep the ball and control the game which they can't. Imo we missed the chance to unlock Pogba when we got Bruno. I know he's arguably the most talented in our squad but part of me wishes we should just finally let him go instead of constantly looking for how to unlock him and waiting for he and his agent to talk about new challenges

 

[Zed 101]

With Rice I kind of feel like it is a what else is there out there option..... not that Rice is amazing and would replace the McT/Fred pairing which is ideally what we want a new DM to do.

I would be more interested in signing Ben White on the cheap from Brighton, he can play DM or CDM and would be an upgrade defensively on those 2 (even if he offered less going forward, we would play Pogba and Bruno in front of him) plus much better than Lindleof defensively.

TBH I would rather put Tuanzebe in DM or Lindelof in DM that spunk mega bucks on Rice who is at best a squad quality DM for a top side, not a 1st 11 starter.

 

[Beachryan]

Obviously he's not a 90m player - aside from the imagination why are folks saying he'd be the most expensive signing in our history?

For something involving Lingard and a modest fee it makes sense. I think he'd easily improve us, brings a great attitude too and would gel with the squad.

But I will be utterly shocked if prices this summer are anything like the FM world being quoted. Covid has ruined basically all non sugar daddy clubs, including WHU. (and Dortmund)

In the end, these clubs have to remain solvent, and for clubs like the two I mentioned that involves selling assets, its the only thing they can do. So yes they might leak insane figures to the press but let's go ahead and see what happens. If Declan Rice costs someone 90m quid, I will eat the proverbial hat.

 

[MadMike]

Obviously he's not a 90m player - aside from the imagination why are folks saying he'd be the most expensive signing in our history?

For something involving Lingard and a modest fee it makes sense. I think he'd easily improve us, brings a great attitude too and would gel with the squad.

But I will be utterly shocked if prices this summer are anything like the FM world being quoted. Covid has ruined basically all non sugar daddy clubs, including WHU. (and Dortmund)

In the end, these clubs have to remain solvent, and for clubs like the two I mentioned that involves selling assets, its the only thing they can do. So yes they might leak insane figures to the press but let's go ahead and see what happens. If Declan Rice costs someone 90m quid, I will eat the proverbial hat.

West Ham of all teams won't have a problem staying solvent and keeping their players I don't think. They lost revenue due to Covid but the season without fans suited them and they just had their highest placed finish in ages and qualified for Europe, which would help balance things out for them financially.

 

[Devil may care]

People keep forgetting Matuidis contribution from the world cup. He played as a defensive lm to help Kante with Pogbas defensive deficiencies. It would be difficult for any dm to cover for Pogba and Bruno, they are both too careless with the ball.

Spot on, it only worked for City with De Bruyne and Silva because Silva barely lost the ball, I don't see any other teams playing as wide open in midfield, it'd end up with Pogba back on the left and one of McFred with Rice within 6 games imo.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I don’t get this.

What exactly is so unbalanced about Rice, Pogba and Bruno Fernandes?

Bruno is a CM playing as a CAM in my opinion. (He is regarded as a CM in Portugal). We literally see him run all over the pitch whenever the ball is lost. He makes runs in to creative space rather than sticking to this CAM position all the time as if he was Ozil.

He is one of the most movement based players in our squad and for me - him starting a little deeper would just mean he has to move forward when he has the ball more so than running around like a mad man whenever he loses the ball further up the pitch.

If City could do it with 2 CAM’s in de Bruyne and David Silva - I don’t really see why we would struggle this much with 2 attacking minded CM (which is different) with much better defensive ability in them (in comparison to Silva and De Bruyne). I get that Pep’s team have the benefits of possession football- but again, we are not playing with 2 CAM and one 1 CDM. We are playing with 2 creative Centre midfielders that have routinely started deeper in their lives and they will be protected by a pure ball winning midfielder.

It's because KDB and Silva were brilliant at retaining possession whereas it's a weakness for both Fernandes and Pogba. May be a stretch for KDB but he managed to do it under Pep alongwith support from others. Not to mention that City's DMs also happen to be good passers.

People keep forgetting Matuidis contribution from the world cup. He played as a defensive lm to help Kante with Pogbas defensive deficiencies. It would be difficult for any dm to cover for Pogba and Bruno, they are both too careless with the ball.

Totally agree.

 

[justsomebloke]

With Rice I kind of feel like it is a what else is there out there option..... not that Rice is amazing and would replace the McT/Fred pairing which is ideally what we want a new DM to do.

I would be more interested in signing Ben White on the cheap from Brighton, he can play DM or CDM and would be an upgrade defensively on those 2 (even if he offered less going forward, we would play Pogba and Bruno in front of him) plus much better than Lindleof defensively.

TBH I would rather put Tuanzebe in DM or Lindelof in DM that spunk mega bucks on Rice who is at best a squad quality DM for a top side, not a 1st 11 starter.

There are lots of other options than Rice, and plenty that look better in my opinion.

Statistically at least, White does look better in key defensive areas than Lindelof, with the very notable exception of aerial duels won, where he is much weaker. But he's a significant downgrade in the more ball-oriented aspects of the game. I think we have much better options than him too.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I'm sorry in advance, but when I read stuff like that I can only respond only in posts dripping with sarcasm.

It isn't such a big problem you say, but 2 managers and 4 different DMs (Matic, Herrera, Fellaini and Fred) in 5 years now have all failed to make it work. Remember, before Fernandes we had one of Lingard, Mkhitaryan or Mata playing at #10 and Mourinho tried in many different ways to make his preferred 4-2-3-1 work with Pogba at #8 and failed. He ended up using two DMs and playing 4-3-3 with Pogba the most advanced midfielder instead of playing with a #10. Ole has barely tried to accommodate Fernandes and Pogba in the middle, probably because he sees in training how it works out.

I guess none of those 4 DMs were strong enough for you to be a foil for Pogba, yet that significantly better DM is so super easy to find we must be idiots not having that sorted by now. Surely Rice is many levels above those 4 and he will do it, no problems. It's not that Pogba is not disciplined enough to play #8, it's the DMs.

His Juve and France managers must also have been idiots when they played him with 2 of Vidal, Marchisio, Khedira or Matuidi, Kante, N'Zonzi covering for him respectively. I guess none of these people know how good Pogba's work rate is with his 2.2 tackles per game and how well he can play the #8 with a single DM next to him and with a #10 in front him. The could have played him with Dybala or Payet at #10 in front of him but they chose not too, because they were all idiots missing the obvious. But you've got it sussed out easy.

Sometimes facts stare people in the face, yet the they choose to ignore them in favour of a delusion.

Since you mentioned facts, let’s discuss facts then.

He was voted player of season of Europa league in 2017, and was officially PL team of season in 2019, both as no.8 role. Not to mention he was very successful playing for Juventus and France in similar role. So I wouldn’t say he failed at no.8.

Just that he wasn’t consistent throughout, and then he has the attitude problems during Mourinho time, which get worse with his outspoken agent, while people expectation on him was always high, some might consider him a failure.

But sure he tend to loss the ball carelessly his own half trying to dribble his way out of trouble, that’s why I never feel safe playing him in a double pivot role. However if we have a strong DM, we could push him up abit to play box to box role or even AM role instead, which I don’t see there any problem. True he is most dangerous in final third, which may overlap with Bruno. But I don’t see that’s a big problem, if we have strong DM sitting behind. We never really had that to be fair. If this works for City (De Bruyne+Silva+Fernandinho) and Barca (Xavi+Iniesta+Busquets), why can’t it work for us?

 

[justsomebloke]

Wouldn’t say he failed at no.8. For example, he was voted player of season of Europa league in 2017, and was officially PL team of season in 2019, both as no.8 role. Not to mention he was very successful playing for Juventus and France in similar role.
Just that he wasn’t consistent throughout, and then the attitude issues, while people expectation on him was way too high, some might consider him a failure.

He has NOT played in a similar role for either Juventus or France. In both cases he formed part of a 3-man CM line, which is very different from a pivot in a 4231.

How successful he's been in the no 8 role in a 2-man pivot is I think pretty evident from the fact that he is now being used on the left flank, despite this creating serious complications for squad balance. And equally significant is how the pivot is being employed: Very much as a unit, and with a clear function in the structure of our game. When Ole is talking about how McFred brings balance, I think he's referring as much to that as to McTominays and Freds qualities as players individually. Pogba just doesn't fit into that, no matter who he's got for a partner. The big point here: This is a pivot for all-rounders, not for either offensive or defensive specialists.

 

[MadMike]

Since you mentioned facts, let’s discuss facts then.

He was voted player of season of Europa league in 2017, and was officially PL team of season in 2019, both as no.8 role. Not to mention he was very successful playing for Juventus and France in similar role. So I wouldn’t say he failed at no.8.

Just that he wasn’t consistent throughout, and then he has the attitude problems during Mourinho time, which get worse with his outspoken agent, while people expectation on him was always high, some might consider him a failure.

As @justsomebloke said never did Pogba play an #8 in a 2-man pivot for 4-2-3-1, apart from during a short time under Mourinho. He always played in a 3-man midfield with 2 more defensive minded players by his side. In the Europa League we always played with Herrera and Fellaini behind him. Go check our line-ups in the run of 2017.

An #8 with two #6s behind him, is a different job to an #8 with a single #6 by his side and a #10 in front of him. The latter requires far more discipline and positional awareness. Pogba was always the former and never the latter. He always had two water carriers behind him at Juve, France and United.

You're literally inventing alternative facts to suit an alternative reality that you've constructed in your head.

 

[RedRonaldo]

As @justsomebloke said never did Pogba play an #8 in a 2-man pivot for 4-2-3-1, apart from during a short time under Mourinho. He always played in a 3-man midfield with 2 more defensive minded players by his side. In the Europa League we always played with Herrera and Fellaini behind him. Go check our line-ups in the run of 2017.

An #8 with two #6s behind him, is a different job to an #8 with a single #6 by his side and a #10 in front of him. The latter requires far more discipline and positional awareness. Pogba was always the former and never the latter. He always had two water carriers behind him at Juve, France and United.

You're literally inventing alternative facts to suit an alternative reality that you've constructed in your head.

What alternative reality are you talking about? Quote me exactly which part did I said was "alternative reality" in your eyes?
I am simply saying he is good no.8 as proven in many previous occasions, I didn't say whether he is good no.8 behind 2 no.6 or 1 no.6, you create all that in your head. All I am saying is, I don't see he would be a bad no.8 if he has a strong no.6 behind him, which he never has with us.
Also, Bruno contributes alot defensively as opposed to most other no.10. Playing him with Pogba could be playing double no.8 at times. I don't see it would definitely fail if we have a strong no.6 to support 2 creative no.8.

 

[justsomebloke]

What alternative reality are you talking about? Quote me exactly which part did I said was "alternative reality" in your eyes?
I am simply saying he is good no.8 as proven in many previous occasions, I didn't say whether he is good no.8 behind 2 no.6 or 1 no.6, you create all that in your head. All I am saying is, I don't see he would be a bad no.8 if he has a strong no.6 behind him, which he never has with us.
Also, Bruno contributes alot defensively as opposed to most other no.10. Playing him with Pogba could be playing double no.8 at times. I don't see it would definitely fail if we have a strong no.6 to support 2 creative no.8.

And what has been pointed out by Mad Mike is that he has not proven he is a good no 8 in a double pivot, which for obvious reasons is something very different from playing in a three-man midfield with two defensively-inclined partners. On the contrary, he has fairly consistently proven that he isn't.

 

[MadMike]

What alternative reality are you talking about? Quote me exactly which part did I said was "alternative reality" in your eyes?
I am simply saying he is good no.8 as proven in many previous occasions, I didn't say whether he is good no.8 behind 2 no.6 or 1 no.6, you create all that in your head. All I am saying is, I don't see he would be a bad no.8 if he has a strong no.6 behind him, which he never has with us.
Also, Bruno contributes alot defensively as opposed to most other no.10. Playing him with Pogba could be playing double no.8 at times. I don't see it would definitely fail if we have a strong no.6 to support 2 creative no.8.

Because (I keep explaining that to you, you just choose to ignore it) we tried that and it didn't work. Mourinho tried to play him at the base of a 4-2-3-1 next to one of Matic/Herrera/Fellaini in his first season with Lingard or Mata at #10 and it didn't work out. Pogba wasn't disciplined enough in that. Mourinho then changed it to 4-3-3 with 2 of Matic/Herrera/Fellaini and sacrificed Mata/Lingard. Lingard in particular was also a hard worker from #10, he wasn't a shirker.

You keep clinging to this line "he played an #8". In isolation it means absolutely feck all. He played next to two DMs for United, Juve and France. You say you can't see why he can't play next to only 1 DM and we keep telling you because he's not disciplined for that and he's never done it successfully. There doesn't exist this single DM who is so much better than Matic/Herrera/Fellaini/Fred to compensate for Pogbas inefficiencies in that role.

Hence you're creating a reality in your head where Pogba playing #8 means, he could do it with a single player covering for him. When it's proven he can't. And every time he excelled at a team, he had two players covering him and not one.

 

[Lash]

Obviously he's not a 90m player - aside from the imagination why are folks saying he'd be the most expensive signing in our history?

For something involving Lingard and a modest fee it makes sense. I think he'd easily improve us, brings a great attitude too and would gel with the squad.

But I will be utterly shocked if prices this summer are anything like the FM world being quoted. Covid has ruined basically all non sugar daddy clubs, including WHU. (and Dortmund)

In the end, these clubs have to remain solvent, and for clubs like the two I mentioned that involves selling assets, its the only thing they can do. So yes they might leak insane figures to the press but let's go ahead and see what happens. If Declan Rice costs someone 90m quid, I will eat the proverbial hat.

Why not make it interesting and eat a real hat?

 

[lex talionis]

The assessment of our core deficiencies has to begin, it seems to me, with our horrific defending on set pieces, which I don’t think Rice or any of the top name DMs could help us much with.

I am in the camp of those who would like to see us bring in Rice (but not at the cost of blowing out our budget) to get us out of the McFred rut, but I don’t expect that new DM to work miracles for us.
We’re solid enough in the middle third defensively and transitioning into attack, but we have to improve but we have to improve our set piece defending and we have to improve our finishing. If there’s a promising young DM out there or if we think Garner is ready for the durst team we should go in that direction and strengthen the squad up front and at the back with footballers who are already at or near peak.

If anyone knows of a data source that breaks down the number of goals we’ve conceded on set pieces I think that would help this discussion. We can all conjure up in our mind’s eye horror lapses by Fred and McTominay that led to goals, but what I think we’ll find is that we’ve conceded far more than our fair share of goals on set pieces.

 

[justsomebloke]

The assessment of our core deficiencies has to begin, it seems to me, with our horrific defending on set pieces, which I don’t think Rice or any of the top name DMs could help us much with.

I am in the camp of those who would like to see us bring in Rice (but not at the cost of blowing out our budget) to get us out of the McFred rut, but I don’t expect that new DM to work miracles for us.
We’re solid enough in the middle third defensively and transitioning into attack, but we have to improve but we have to improve our set piece defending and we have to improve our finishing. If there’s a promising young DM out there or if we think Garner is ready for the durst team we should go in that direction and strengthen the squad up front and at the back with footballers who are already at or near peak.

If anyone knows of a data source that breaks down the number of goals we’ve conceded on set pieces I think that would help this discussion. We can all conjure up in our mind’s eye horror lapses by Fred and McTominay that led to goals, but what I think we’ll find is that we’ve conceded far more than our fair share of goals on set pieces.

Many make a similar argument, but to me there's a glitch in it. It is this: Is the main problem with the Fred/McTominay pairing that it doesn't offer enough defensive coverage? And if the answer to that is "no", then why should we be looking for a defensively inclined central midfielder? what we should be looking for in my view is rather someone who can offer at least a similar level of defensive proficiency to McT (who is the weaker of the two), but mainly a significant improvement in the ability to transition the ball and have an offensive impact.

That's not Declan Rice.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Because (I keep explaining that to you, you just choose to ignore it) we tried that and it didn't work. Mourinho tried to play him at the base of a 4-2-3-1 next to one of Matic/Herrera/Fellaini in his first season with Lingard or Mata at #10 and it didn't work out. Pogba wasn't disciplined enough in that. Mourinho then changed it to 4-3-3 with 2 of Matic/Herrera/Fellaini and sacrificed Mata/Lingard. Lingard in particular was also a hard worker from #10, he wasn't a shirker.

You keep clinging to this line "he played an #8". In isolation it means absolutely feck all. He played next to two DMs for United, Juve and France. You say you can't see why he can't play next to only 1 DM and we keep telling you because he's not disciplined for that and he's never done it successfully. There doesn't exist this single DM who is so much better than Matic/Herrera/Fellaini/Fred to compensate for Pogbas inefficiencies in that role.

Hence you're creating a reality in your head where Pogba playing #8 means, he could do it with a single player covering for him. When it's proven he can't. And every time he excelled at a team, he had two players covering him and not one.

He hasn't been proven he cant though. That's in your head only. The way I see he can't do it in United in recent years because United never have a strong no.6 to support him. At Juventus he played with Vidal and Pirlo, position wise Pirlo is a DM, but in truth he is more like a deep lying playmaker instead of being a strong DM. Also, don't forget Pogba has a good tournament for France in Euro 2016 too and lead them to final. France plays with only 2 CM/DM at that time, Pogba and Matuidi, throughout the tournament. If he can do it in 2016, why can't he do it now?

 

[MadMike]

He hasn't been proven he cant though. That's in your head only.

Aight ok pal, we all dreamt Mourinho's reign and his attempts at 4-2-3-1 in 2016. Sure.

The way I see he can't do it in United in recent years because United never have a strong no.6 to support him. At Juventus he played with Vidal and Pirlo, position wise Pirlo is a DM, but in truth he is more like a deep lying playmaker instead of being a strong DM.

So he still had two midfielders playing deeper than him in a midfield 3 and keeping the shape? Right-o.

Also, don't forget Pogba has a good tournament for France in Euro 2016 too and lead them to final. France plays with 2 CM at that time, Pogba and Matuidi, throughout the tournament. If he can do it in 2016, why can't he do it now?

No they didn't. They played exactly same way they played in 2018, under the very same manager (Deschamps).

In 2016 the midfield was Pogba, Matuidi, Sissoko (with Sissoko being the "wide midfielder" that in fact tucked in to help central midfield) and Payet, Griezman, Giroud being the attacking players. In 2018 Mbappe replaced Payet and Kante replaced Sissoko. Matuidi was now the the "wide midfielder" who tucked in. The team shape and tactics remained exactly the same. France played with 3 midfielders in both tournaments and Pogba was given the most freedom from those 3 to make play and attack.

Any other interesting stories to share?

 

[Hoboman]

He hasn't been proven he cant though. That's in your head only. The way I see he can't do it in United in recent years because United never have a strong no.6 to support him. At Juventus he played with Vidal and Pirlo, position wise Pirlo is a DM, but in truth he is more like a deep lying playmaker instead of being a strong DM. Also, don't forget Pogba has a good tournament for France in Euro 2016 too and lead them to final. France plays with only 2 CM/DM at that time, Pogba and Matuidi, throughout the tournament. If he can do it in 2016, why can't he do it now?

He also had Marchisio in Juve and Sissoko in Euro 2016

 

[justsomebloke]

He hasn't been proven he cant though. That's in your head only. The way I see he can't do it in United in recent years because United never have a strong no.6 to support him. At Juventus he played with Vidal and Pirlo, position wise Pirlo is a DM, but in truth he is more like a deep lying playmaker instead of being a strong DM. Also, don't forget Pogba has a good tournament for France in Euro 2016 too and lead them to final. France plays with only 2 CM/DM at that time, Pogba and Matuidi, throughout the tournament. If he can do it in 2016, why can't he do it now?

Time to know when to stop?

 

[bosnian_red]

Many make a similar argument, but to me there's a glitch in it. It is this: Is the main problem with the Fred/McTominay pairing that it doesn't offer enough defensive coverage? And if the answer to that is "no", then why should we be looking for a defensively inclined central midfielder? what we should be looking for in my view is rather someone who can offer at least a similar level of defensive proficiency to McT (who is the weaker of the two), but mainly a significant improvement in the ability to transition the ball and have an offensive impact.

That's not Declan Rice.

Top right is passing/control, bottom right creativity, bottom left security, top left defending. What we lack is security and control on the ball, along with our midfield generally being at best a 70-80th percentile one rather than a 90th percentile midfield when it comes to defending or passing.

Rice would at least really improve the defensive stats and generally gives it away far less than McTominay or Fred through sloppiness. Much harder to dribble through our midfield, gi especially away fewer fouls, solid all round defensively, but also careful on the ball. He's not necessarily the perfect signing, but he would make a massive difference to our game and is still young so would have room to grow. In general, neither Fred nor McTominay are good enough to be starters, but Fred is much closer to being good enough and would at least give us a good partnership with Rice.

 

[theklr]

Yes, but what I mean is, we can play Bruno as AM, Pogba as no.8, and then we play a strong DM behind. It could work, if we are able to find that DM. Both Fred and Mctominay is more box to box and not really very strong defensively, we basically need a younger Matic with legs.

Fred is a very good defensive midfielder

 

[Jacob]

Fred is a very good defensive midfielder

Yeah right.

 

[theklr]

Yeah right.

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[lex talionis]

Many make a similar argument, but to me there's a glitch in it. It is this: Is the main problem with the Fred/McTominay pairing that it doesn't offer enough defensive coverage? And if the answer to that is "no", then why should we be looking for a defensively inclined central midfielder? what we should be looking for in my view is rather someone who can offer at least a similar level of defensive proficiency to McT (who is the weaker of the two), but mainly a significant improvement in the ability to transition the ball and have an offensive impact.

That's not Declan Rice.

I have to agree, completely. Although I have no objection to Rice as he would upgrade McFred, I don’t see that much in his game that would instantly elevate our midfield all that much. Some, no doubt, but I hope no one here seriously believes that Rice would have a transformational impact for us.

We read numbers like 65m for Rice. Let’s not blow that kind of money on Rice. Instead, go for Sancho or Grealish (or and Grealish if we sell Pogba) and a CB to muscle in on Lindelof.