Declan Rice

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
11,004
Can imagine us signing him, then people moaning at how limited he is.
Basically Schneiderlin again.
Yh I really don’t see it with him. Solid player and can play on his own as a DM which we need but I just don’t think he’s that good. Croatia are a very average team without much pace/pressing ability as well.
 

bucky

Full Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
9,033
The problem against Villareal wasn't that? The problem often times has been a lack of balance meaning we can't use Pogba in midfield. Only chance of us being able to use him in midfield is with a DM like Rice. It's literally not possible otherwise.
The problem against Villarreal was exactly the same as was in many of our previous draws during the seasons. We didn't have playmaker deeper, that was upping our tempo with their passing or progressed our play with line breaking passes, like Carrick used to for example. Rice wouldn't change that at all. Pogba was hardly challenged defensively and yet we didn't threaten them at all. I don't see any point in paying whatever Rice is going to cost, when a midfield of Pogba and Rice is only going to work against about 10 to 12 teams in the league, all worse than Villarreal. For what both Pogba and Rice would cost, we should be getting more out of that.
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
11,791
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Can imagine us signing him, then people moaning at how limited he is.
Basically Schneiderlin again.
this is basically what he does as far as I can see. People are going to be majorly underwhelmed for the next few years. Like they were with fletcher or Carrick initially. I’d rather get Camavinga, Bellingham, Moriba or another expansive box to box if we are going to play the double pivot. We are still lacking in creativity. The hope is Rice will grow into a monster player at his peak and we do need a DM tactically anyway so he is probably who they will buy. He’ll need to be a lot more crafty with the ball here and we will need more than a water carrier in most games. His price is nuts too.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
35,060
Different players but Rice is quality as a holding mid. I'm skeptical on if it'd work anyway, but it'd be the only chance at it working as Rice would cover and sweep up behind Pogba and is fine on the ball to spread it around to the more creative/progressive players.
He's good at positioning but is that really enough? at United you need midfielders who are well rounded.

It just seems strange that people expect us to sign Rice and magically Pogba will be able to do all the attacking work by himself. In reality it doesn't work like that.

He's a decent player but for 70m it's just not realistic at all. Look at the abuse Pogba gets for costing 89m, do you think fans will be happy with sideways passing and a few interceptions in our own box?
 

bosskeano

Full Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2020
Messages
2,096
Location
Charleston
sorry...watched the england match today and just wasn't impressed or blown away by Rice. For that kind of money that Wet Spam would want, ummm nah i'll pass.
 

3vra

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Apr 13, 2021
Messages
144
Last year I bought a bike. Nothing spectacular i paid around £1000. It was nice It was going well, but I wanted more, so i bought lights, better tyres, elektronic horn, more comfortable grips, carrier, counter etc. I paid for those around the same amount as I paid for the bike. My girlfriend decided to make my a surprise and arranged some bike trip for us. 350 km for 4 days, she bought a tent and all needed stuff.
The problem Was, that i ordered good chain lock but unfortunately there was some problem with delivery and i did not get It on time #sadface

So i bought some cheap one just to have sth and be able to go for that trip.

I had everything needed to ride on that bike, have fun and do what that trip was all about.

Unfortunately during 2nd night someone cut my cheap wire and stole my bike…

So the thing is even if I had everything i needed for moving forward which seemed like a main thing, i did not have that proper chain lock that would scared thiefs and forced them to leave my bike alone, the thing that is not needed at all to ride a bike but still without It i could not ride because i did not have my bike anymore.
It does almost nothing just „is there” but when someone sees that they move away to try they luck elsewhere.

This is why even if Rice does a little in play building his presence where It should be without even touching the ball forces opponents to try different approach.

his is for other midfielders what Wan Bissaka is for Sterling, makes them uncomfortable playing what they are used to and forcing them to try something different what is not their A Game so there is a great chance they not gonna have a good idea what to do. Rice by just being where they want to create sth makes them change their plan and move the ball from the centre to left or right where having 2 great defensive full backs like Shaw and Wan Bissaka makes creating chances a little bit more difficult. Thats why even if It looks like he is doing nothing in opponents minds there is a big brick wall in the center of the pitch and It will be easier to go around.

going for next season without proper DM who just sits there will be like my trip, stupid and only waiting for sth wrong to happen.
McT and Fred are all over the place and are weakest links to move the ball closer to our goal.

We need someone who will be like that finger just mm away from your nose almost touching It but without any contact making you very uncomfortable.
This is what only his positioning mean to the team. If you add that he is also quite good at making tackles and not a bad passer with hammer of a shot It looks like a good idea to bring him to our team. Maybe he is not worth 70-90 mln that WHU would want, but right now there are not many players able to play a DM role on their own, and when there is small number of things around their price is skyrocketing.

you can buy some special limited 20$ bills for thousands and thousands of dollars because there is not many of them availabe, even if It is just 20$ Bill.
There are not many proper DM at that age with that level of maturity and understanding of the game…
 

In Rainbows

Full Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
5,905
Different players but Rice is quality as a holding mid. I'm skeptical on if it'd work anyway, but it'd be the only chance at it working as Rice would cover and sweep up behind Pogba and is fine on the ball to spread it around to the more creative/progressive players.
I think as a squad option, that player is fine, but for the price he will go for, it's not something we should do. Even if we had him, our midfield will still be lacking that metronome passer, who is best on the ball, is constantly finding space to receive the ball and bail out teammates when needed.

We have to make our own destroyer, or buy one for cheap that ends up being a steal. Similar to Ndidi and Kante at the time they were bought.
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
6,487
I think as a squad option, that player is fine, but for the price he will go for, it's not something we should do. Even if we had him, our midfield will still be lacking that metronome passer, who is best on the ball, is constantly finding space to receive the ball and bail out teammates when needed.

We have to make our own destroyer, or buy one for cheap that ends up being a steal. Similar to Ndidi and Kante at the time they were bought.
Listen to this man.
 

CanadianUtd

New Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2021
Messages
313
Supports
Vancouver, Boston
There is a very fine line between intuition and wishful thinking. If we get him I hope it works but 100 million on a player to play in a position he doesn't play and has never played because he looks like he could play there is a Russian roulette transfer strategy.
who’s ever said £100m? I’ve never heard of that.

i think you’re being slightly literal in terms of the DM position. We play 4231. If acquired, Rice would play as part of the “2” and his duty would be DM. AKA the 2nd “2” mid beside him playing alongside him would be afforded the freedom to move up the pitch for the most part whereas Rice wouldn’t as he'd generally sit back more.

It’s all based off feel and reading the pitch, when 1 stays and the other goes. I bet there will be times where Rice is a bit higher up as well. But saying he would play in a position he’s never played in before is confusing, i don’t quite get it.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2012
Messages
14,186
If we spend 80m+ on him, I give up.

He is nowhere near worth that amount of money.
 

AmanNits04

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
422
Location
India
Why don't we unearth gems anymore, surely our scouting network is one of the best in the world, given the size and money that our club has.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
8,862
- Rio Ferdinand on Declan Rice

‘There were times when they were on the front foot but then they took their foot off their pedal.

I was very impressed with the patience of this team from back to front. I thought Declan Rice in front of the back four was superb in his positions, cutting out crosses, getting in great positions to cut the lines into the strikers.

There will be stiffer tests but they did what they had to do today.’
 

meamth

Full Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Messages
5,459
Location
Malaysia
Last year I bought a bike. Nothing spectacular i paid around £1000. It was nice It was going well, but I wanted more, so i bought lights, better tyres, elektronic horn, more comfortable grips, carrier, counter etc. I paid for those around the same amount as I paid for the bike. My girlfriend decided to make my a surprise and arranged some bike trip for us. 350 km for 4 days, she bought a tent and all needed stuff.
The problem Was, that i ordered good chain lock but unfortunately there was some problem with delivery and i did not get It on time #sadface

So i bought some cheap one just to have sth and be able to go for that trip.

I had everything needed to ride on that bike, have fun and do what that trip was all about.

Unfortunately during 2nd night someone cut my cheap wire and stole my bike…

So the thing is even if I had everything i needed for moving forward which seemed like a main thing, i did not have that proper chain lock that would scared thiefs and forced them to leave my bike alone, the thing that is not needed at all to ride a bike but still without It i could not ride because i did not have my bike anymore.
It does almost nothing just „is there” but when someone sees that they move away to try they luck elsewhere.

This is why even if Rice does a little in play building his presence where It should be without even touching the ball forces opponents to try different approach.

his is for other midfielders what Wan Bissaka is for Sterling, makes them uncomfortable playing what they are used to and forcing them to try something different what is not their A Game so there is a great chance they not gonna have a good idea what to do. Rice by just being where they want to create sth makes them change their plan and move the ball from the centre to left or right where having 2 great defensive full backs like Shaw and Wan Bissaka makes creating chances a little bit more difficult. Thats why even if It looks like he is doing nothing in opponents minds there is a big brick wall in the center of the pitch and It will be easier to go around.

going for next season without proper DM who just sits there will be like my trip, stupid and only waiting for sth wrong to happen.
McT and Fred are all over the place and are weakest links to move the ball closer to our goal.

We need someone who will be like that finger just mm away from your nose almost touching It but without any contact making you very uncomfortable.
This is what only his positioning mean to the team. If you add that he is also quite good at making tackles and not a bad passer with hammer of a shot It looks like a good idea to bring him to our team. Maybe he is not worth 70-90 mln that WHU would want, but right now there are not many players able to play a DM role on their own, and when there is small number of things around their price is skyrocketing.

you can buy some special limited 20$ bills for thousands and thousands of dollars because there is not many of them availabe, even if It is just 20$ Bill.
There are not many proper DM at that age with that level of maturity and understanding of the game…
This is RAWK quality posting.

I like that.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
8,862
Last year I bought a bike. Nothing spectacular i paid around £1000. It was nice It was going well, but I wanted more, so i bought lights, better tyres, elektronic horn, more comfortable grips, carrier, counter etc. I paid for those around the same amount as I paid for the bike. My girlfriend decided to make my a surprise and arranged some bike trip for us. 350 km for 4 days, she bought a tent and all needed stuff.
The problem Was, that i ordered good chain lock but unfortunately there was some problem with delivery and i did not get It on time #sadface

So i bought some cheap one just to have sth and be able to go for that trip.

I had everything needed to ride on that bike, have fun and do what that trip was all about.

Unfortunately during 2nd night someone cut my cheap wire and stole my bike…

So the thing is even if I had everything i needed for moving forward which seemed like a main thing, i did not have that proper chain lock that would scared thiefs and forced them to leave my bike alone, the thing that is not needed at all to ride a bike but still without It i could not ride because i did not have my bike anymore.
It does almost nothing just „is there” but when someone sees that they move away to try they luck elsewhere.

This is why even if Rice does a little in play building his presence where It should be without even touching the ball forces opponents to try different approach.

his is for other midfielders what Wan Bissaka is for Sterling, makes them uncomfortable playing what they are used to and forcing them to try something different what is not their A Game so there is a great chance they not gonna have a good idea what to do. Rice by just being where they want to create sth makes them change their plan and move the ball from the centre to left or right where having 2 great defensive full backs like Shaw and Wan Bissaka makes creating chances a little bit more difficult. Thats why even if It looks like he is doing nothing in opponents minds there is a big brick wall in the center of the pitch and It will be easier to go around.

going for next season without proper DM who just sits there will be like my trip, stupid and only waiting for sth wrong to happen.
McT and Fred are all over the place and are weakest links to move the ball closer to our goal.

We need someone who will be like that finger just mm away from your nose almost touching It but without any contact making you very uncomfortable.
This is what only his positioning mean to the team. If you add that he is also quite good at making tackles and not a bad passer with hammer of a shot It looks like a good idea to bring him to our team. Maybe he is not worth 70-90 mln that WHU would want, but right now there are not many players able to play a DM role on their own, and when there is small number of things around their price is skyrocketing.

you can buy some special limited 20$ bills for thousands and thousands of dollars because there is not many of them availabe, even if It is just 20$ Bill.
There are not many proper DM at that age with that level of maturity and understanding of the game…
Great post. This is what I see too.

The ability for Croatia's midfielders to create anything centrally went away because of Rice's consistent positioning.

It led to Croatia having to shift out wide - which Rice would cover too; leading to the CB's not being stretched or out of position during a cross.

He gives England this shape and freedom to be defensively solid behind him whilst having an attacking freedom in front of him.
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
12,779
Rice had a really good game. How many chances did Croatia create centrally - with that quality midfield they have - next to none.
 

Highfather_24

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
1,848
All that story about a bike, but the fact is no one is denying Rice is a good sitting midfielder. He is a very good player, and has a high ceiling. But he is not the right profile, its not about his ability or how good he is.

The problem is we dont need a sitting midfielder. Atleast not a limited one. The player we are going to buy needs to play alongside McT/Fred, and having a pure DM alongside them will be extremely negative. Other teams usually put players on McT and Fred, and then our CB's have to bring the ball out because are CM's are incapable of playing out and building attacks. They are not good on the ball. Rice is not that good under a heavy press.

We need a CM who is good on the ball. We need someone like Thiago or Camavinga, a CM who can start attacks and is a metronome, but defensively sound as well. Like a Carrick or a Keane(yes all these players have different playing styles but they have the same role). Rice is not that player. He is more like a pure DM(like say Casemiro), who needs a ball playing midfielder beside him, which neither Fred/McT or even VdB are.
 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
11,004
The fact that so many people don’t want him makes me feel he is a good player.
Caf consensus to me is actually accurate. There are very few things the caf joins forces on: Mou to Spurs being a disaster, Fred needing to be subbed versus PSG, DDG being awful at penos as examples.

When the caf is split, it’s anyone’s guess but I think it’s very clear Rice isn’t a world class DM and so why would we pay anywhere near the reported fee?
 

gajender

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
2,138
All that story about a bike, but the fact is no one is denying Rice is a good sitting midfielder. He is a very good player, and has a high ceiling. But he is not the right profile, its not about his ability or how good he is.

The problem is we dont need a sitting midfielder. Atleast not a limited one. The player we are going to buy needs to play alongside McT/Fred, and having a pure DM alongside them will be extremely negative. Other teams usually put players on McT and Fred, and then our CB's have to bring the ball out because are CM's are incapable of playing out and building attacks. They are not good on the ball. Rice is not that good under a heavy press.

We need a CM who is good on the ball. We need someone like Thiago or Camavinga, a CM who can start attacks and is a metronome, but defensively sound as well. Like a Carrick or a Keane(yes all these players have different playing styles but they have the same role). Rice is not that player. He is more like a pure DM(like say Casemiro), who needs a ball playing midfielder beside him, which neither Fred/McT or even VdB are.
Do you really believe that Fred and Mctominay should be anything more than squad options for us ideally we need both types of midfielders a playmaker as well as CDM ,even Kross and Modric needed Casmiro to bring the best out of them , Thiago looked liked lost cause for Liverpool before Fabinho was reinstated in midfield .
What can certainly be argued is which type of midfielder we purchase first but what can't be ignored is the need of both profiles unless Solskjaer is planning to play Pogba in Midfield two again then Someone like Rice should be priority.
 

Highfather_24

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
1,848
Do you really believe that Fred and Mctominay should be anything more than squad options for us ideally we need both types of midfielders a playmaker as well as CDM ,even Kross and Modric needed Casmiro to bring the best out of them , Thiago looked liked lost cause for Liverpool before Fabinho was reinstated in midfield .
What can certainly be argued is which type of midfielder we purchase first but what can't be ignored is the need of both profiles unless Solskjaer is planning to play Pogba in Midfield two again then Someone like Rice should be priority.
I can see what you're saying. Here's the thing, when you're playing a midfield 2, there are 2 combinations that work :

- Either you play a pure DM alongside a more creative midfielder : Think Matic--Fabregas or Kante--Pogba or Mascherano---Gerrard. Rice can play as a DM in this setup, but he needs a creative player alongside him, like a Kroos, Modric or Scholes. Not Fred/McT/VdB. Not including Pogba cause he is a liability in a midfield 2.

- Or you play a box to box CM alongside a deep lying playmaker. Think Fletcher--Scholes, or De Rossi--Pirlo or Kroos--Khedira. Now McT and Fred fit the profile of the box to box CM, so we need a deep lying playmaker alongside them.

Now you might argue that Fred/McT are not starting quality and I agree. But Pogba is not a CM. And Matic should be sold. And VdB is also a question mark. So as it stands, Fred and McT cannot be sold and either one of them are probably going to be starting. So we should build a team that suits our players, rather than a player who doesnt fit even if that player is good(example Pogba or VdB in our current 4-2-3-1 setup).
 

Brwned

Have you ever been in love before?
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
50,167
I can see what you're saying. Here's the thing, when you're playing a midfield 2, there are 2 combinations that work :

- Either you play a pure DM alongside a more creative midfielder : Think Matic--Fabregas or Kante--Pogba or Mascherano---Gerrard. Rice can play as a DM in this setup, but he needs a creative player alongside him, like a Kroos, Modric or Scholes. Not Fred/McT/VdB. Not including Pogba cause he is a liability in a midfield 2.

- Or you play a box to box CM alongside a deep lying playmaker. Think Fletcher--Scholes, or De Rossi--Pirlo or Kroos--Khedira. Now McT and Fred fit the profile of the box to box CM, so we need a deep lying playmaker alongside them.

Now you might argue that Fred/McT are not starting quality and I agree. But Pogba is not a CM. And Matic should be sold. And VdB is also a question mark. So as it stands, Fred and McT cannot be sold and either one of them are probably going to be starting. So we should build a team that suits our players, rather than a player who doesnt fit even if that player is good(example Pogba or VdB in our current 4-2-3-1 setup).
Mascherano practically never played alongside Gerrard, he played beside Alonso. That’s just one example of the many other kinds of midfield partnerships that can work than the two you’ve mentioned.
 

Godfather

Full Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
25,987
Location
Austria
The good thing is that there is no way that we are spending 90+ million Euros on Sancho and another 80 or 90 on this guy.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
8,862
just to get some examples - which current team plays with a single deep lying playmaker as their CDM?
 

0le

Full Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2017
Messages
5,443
Location
UK
Keane seemed to be praising him before the England game yesterday. Just a shame the lad is at a club who value him at a ridiculous price.
 

sullydnl

Ross Kemp's caf ID
Joined
Sep 13, 2012
Messages
28,464
They can value him at 100m all they like, nobody will pay it. But in reality they probably just want to keep him for another season, so that ridiculous valuation makes sense.

At 22 years old and already nailed on in the national side it's not like there's any massive pressure on Rice to leave this summer anyway. He can happily afford to stay another year and see if a transfer becomes more realistic next summer.
 

VinzentFTW

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 28, 2021
Messages
760
He is overrated by many and overvalued by West Ham. I hope United move on and get Bissouma for half the price.
 

lysglimt

Full Member
Scout
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
12,779
He is of course not worth £100 million - and there is no way we can afford both him and Sancho
 

bucky

Full Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
9,033
The fact that so many people don’t want him makes me feel he is a good player.
Most aren't saying that he is a bad player. I think he is a good player with room to improve. But I also think, like others, that he is probably not worth for what he has to offer and won't solve issues from a playmaking point of view.
 

Stacks

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2015
Messages
9,305
Location
Between a rock and Gibraltar
If we willing to spend 50m on a DM, I am sure a lot would improves us exponentially too. Doesn't mean we have to overpay 80-90m for Rice though. Yeh I know he is young and English, but there are always better value elsewhere. City bought Diaz for 60m and he then went on become best defender in PL and Europe, despite we spend 80m on Maguire, who didn't quite manage to reach the same height (but he is still a good CB regardless). We just need to go out and find those players for more reasonable price, and try to avoid building a "reputation' for being so bad in business. Overpaid Maguire by 25-30m is already quite a poor business, overpaid Rice by 35-40m is COVID market would be far worst. If we are smart in business we could have bought say Diaz, top DM and another top CB (say Varane), instead of just Maguire and Rice, with same amount of money.
we don't do smart business
Where is the evidence that he can hold the midfield on his own. He plays in a two at West ham and for England? If England start with him along side Mount and Foden or Grealish, and it works then fair enough. Until I see him play well holding on his own I remain sceptical that paying 100 million for him is a good idea.
Once the muppets are in full force they convince themselves that XYZ player is the missing piece
It’s intuition more than anything since virtually no one starter alone holds the midfield by themselves if you’re talking semantics.

Rice showcases more defensive minded/holding abilities than any midfielder on United apart from maybe Matic who’s now ancient. It’s rather simple why we should get him really.
Is that all that's required for the role at United and command a substantial level of our budget? Can he pass from deep like Matic? If not then we are downgrading and will need to sign another midfielder to compliment him
 

Highfather_24

Full Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
1,848
Mascherano practically never played alongside Gerrard, he played beside Alonso. That’s just one example of the many other kinds of midfield partnerships that can work than the two you’ve mentioned.
I started watching football from 09/10 and I remember in that season one of the most used Liverpool midfields was

--------------Aquilani
--Mascherano--Gerrard

However a lot of pundits said Rafa should have switched Aquilani and Gerrard.

Your point is right that Alonso was usually played alonside Mascherano, but that also is similar to the DM-Creator midfield pairing. Another example of that is Casemiro-Kroos.
 

Bebestation

Full Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2019
Messages
8,862
Most aren't saying that he is a bad player. I think he is a good player with room to improve. But I also think, like others, that he is probably not worth for what he has to offer and won't solve issues from a playmaking point of view.
I feel that is simply because of his on the ball ability. People want a carrick there.

Rice is about central positioning and blocking of the opposition centrally - support to the players behind and in front of him; ie the CBand and the attacking CM.


I just think what he actually does isn’t as easy to find as people think - and people tend to bring up players that play the CDM role in a different way.

I don’t believe he is worth the west ham price though.
 

tomaldinho1

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
11,004
we don't do smart business

Once the muppets are in full force they convince themselves that XYZ player is the missing piece

Is that all that's required for the role at United and command a substantial level of our budget? Can he pass from deep like Matic? If not then we are downgrading and will need to sign another midfielder to compliment him
The train has left the station, the brakes have gone and Rice is prime Casemiro...I honestly don't even know if I'd start him over McT in our system. I wouldn't start him over Fred.
 

Poborsky's hair

Full Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2020
Messages
1,189
Supports
Bohemians 1905
We should wait until England gets knocked out from the Euros in the group stages, maybe his price will drop a bit. From 90 mil to 80. Then go all in.