Declan Rice

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Mainoldo

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Of course he is. Its ridulous to say he isnt good enough for that Scotland side. He just plays at the back because of his ability to carry the ball out in from a back 3 and his height. Plus the shit options at CB but decent options in mf.im Its like Tierney and Robertson in the same postion, theyre just finding a way of getting all of their top players on the pitch.
Rice is basically a 3rd CB in that England side anyway. Maguire had more passes into the final third last night than Rice had. Its semantics really.
I never said he wasn’t good enough. I just said he’s not regarded valuable enough to have to play in the middle. He also played CM in the first game and was a joke. He’s playing CB because of his physical attributes and his passing is better than average from what you would expect from a CB. But seeing as he’s a midfielder it’s not surprising. Maybe that will be his position one day.

But it’s all just an opinion but saying he’s as good as Rice is like believed Bruno is as good as Grealish. So I get it. We all see football differently.
 

Adam-Utd

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Im sorry would England play Gerrard CB because we had decent CM.

Your answering my point. He’s not that good. He’s not even considered Scotland’s main CM. Darren Fletcher would walk into this Scotland Midfield.
Liverpool played him on the right wing because they had 2 CM's better and no right wing, you're answering your own point.

if you have a clear weakness in 1 position then of course you will.
 

AndrewMac

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He's not worth the figures been branded about. An ideal time would have been to buy him last season before he made his international step up.

One factor against him is playing against teams who defend deep and the difference in creativity that needs - as opposed to playing for West Ham when teams will usually attack and you have more space to play. I've not seen anything in these England games to suggest he can be expansive in the holding role.
 
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Mainoldo

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Liverpool played him on the right wing because they had 2 CM's better and no right wing, you're answering your own point.

if you have a clear weakness in 1 position then of course you will.
So what you are trying to tell me is Hendry and Cooper aren’t as good as Armstrong?

Also who where the two midfielders playing for Liverpool that was better than Gerrard in 05?
 

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I think he is a fantastic player, and I'd love to see him play for us if the price is right.

His role is to become part of back 3 when in possession, his passing is decent not exceptional, but if you have Maguire, Lindelof, Pog, Shaw around him - I think we do get well covered there. He clearly has the intelligence and positioning ability to do a much better job than either of the 2 DMs we play. Him as a 6 would mean Pog can play alongside him, although he'd still have some defensive duties (which would be the case with literally any other DM that we sign though)
He is better than people claim but there is nout fantastic about his game. Patrick Vieria was a fantastic player. Makelele fantastic, Kante fantastic, Essien fantatsic, Davids fantastic. Rice is a good player.
Ive always thought Henderson was best with his energy to play as a pressing midfielder or box to box - not necessarily the deepest CDM.

It’s just something I’ve been wondering- so many people put Rice down this tournament when game after game England don’t really get penetrated that hard whilst he is on the pitch. I’m not saying that he is there blocking everything- but nevertheless nothing really happens against England when he is playing.

He came off yesterday and the fullbacks suddenly didn’t get forward as much and we’re all over the place. The midfielders were deep one moment and high up the pitch next to the point that it was the Czech Republic that looked like they controlled the match in that 2nd half.

Like could we play with that set up against the big national teams? Felt there was no shape or organization to the England team in the second half when he came off.

I see many people think of him as this water carrier - but you look at the threads, no one is really dropping him for the future games when they show how England should be lining up now.

It’s just something I wonder - if he is shit or overrated or if these other players are really better - then maybe England will survive or do better without him.

I’m just not 100% sure about that.
Maybe you are right. I am just having nightmares that we will be in the same place as last season with Pogba and Bruno having to drop super deep to get the ball off our defenders, teams man marking Pogba and Bruno and us being unable to move the ball quickly up the field with any kind of penetration and seeing slow aimless
 

zenith

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Really don't think the midfield is something we are going to address this season. There have been no concerte links or prospects
 

bosskeano

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We'd have to be fcking thick in the head if we bid and spend money on Declan Rice. He really offers very little in what we are wanting from our midfielders.
 

Adam-Utd

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So what you are trying to tell me is Hendry and Cooper aren’t as good as Armstrong?

Also who where the two midfielders playing for Liverpool that was better than Gerrard in 05?
Ironic

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2409860/rafa-gerrard-back-on-right

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-row-over-ideal-role-for-gerrard-421434.html

Momo Sissoko and Xabi Alonso keeping Gerrard out of CM ;) Maybe just maybe coaches prefer balance in a side, just like Mctominay doing a job.
 

Mainoldo

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Ironic

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/2409860/rafa-gerrard-back-on-right

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...n-row-over-ideal-role-for-gerrard-421434.html

Momo Sissoko and Xabi Alonso keeping Gerrard out of CM ;) Maybe just maybe coaches prefer balance in a side, just like Mctominay doing a job.
I with my full chest said 05 when the conversation was about there Champions league final win.

I think I can comfortably say there wasn’t two CMs worthy of keeping him out of a two. Xabi and Mascherano. 100 percent the right the decision and is also why no one can give us smoke about him being the same level as Scholes. He didn’t have that technically ability. We seen him in the Rodgers era.
 
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......

But I’m all seriousness he doesn’t play CM for Scotland because he’s just not that good to warrant playing there. If he was an elite performer he would start there. ......
This is a nonsense argument. Up there with claiming a Beckham was not good enough to play center midfield at United that's why he ended up at right wing. Yet it was simply the only way to get all the best players into the team to the best advantage.
 

Mainoldo

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This is a nonsense argument. Up there with claiming a Beckham was not good enough to play center midfield at United that's why he ended up at right wing. Yet it was simply the only way to get all the best players into the team to the best advantage.
So what’s your point exactly? That’s an apples and oranges argument. Beckham continued to play RW because he excelled there similar to Scholes continuing to play in midfield instead of upfront. Has nothing to do with trying to fit everyone in the team. I’m sure a putting a cheap Teddy Sheringham signing and having Nicky Butt on the bench wouldn’t have upset the masses.
 

Redcy

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Tchouameni from Monaco / Soumare / Carmavinga / Zakaria few alternatives
Soumare to Leicester is reportedly already a done deal.

Mobile sitting midfielders who are great defensively and who also contribute in build-up play and ball progression as well as offensively are few and far between. Camavinga is an intriguing option, provided you think he can be a regular at a big club at his age. Personally I like Locatelli, although he ticks the offensive and creative boxes in a clearer way than the defensive ones.
Zakaria is the one likely, I can't see us getting Camavinga for all sorts of reasons, Locatelli is not a DM in any sense, he is more like Pogba than a DM, Soumare looks to be gone, Tchouameni is looking at a much big gap than any of the others. In truth I can't see us getting a midfielder, its all bluff and bs from United.
 
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So what’s your point exactly?
that your argument was nonsense.

That’s an apples and oranges argument. Beckham continued to play RW because he excelled there similar to Scholes continuing to play in midfield instead of upfront.
You wish. Its the same darned argument. United had 2 new excellent players they wanted to put in the first xi . One a natural center midfielder. One a natural striker. Both were put into the team to the best advantage of the team in slots that were not traditionally theirs, because their natural slots had proper options there already. Its that simple. It had feck all to do with them 'excelling there". Or "not being elite enough" in their natural roles. The coaching staff already new they were good enough for the jobs there that is why they put them in the team in those non traditional roles.

Its that exact same reason why Scot Mctominay and Tierney are center halves for Scotland. Scotland have Robertson at left back and have the likes of Mcginn and Armstrong in midfield yet no decent center halves. Both Mctominay and Tierney can operate as competent center halves so they play there. To the best advantage of the team enabling it have ALL its best player on the pitch. Its that simple. The same way a guy like Kimmich finds himself at right wingback for Germany. Yet he is an elite DM

Has nothing to do with trying to fit everyone in the team.
Don't try to remix the argument. I talked clearly of putting your best players in the team to the best advantage of the team. Not just throwing players into an xi willy nilly


I’m sure a putting a cheap Teddy Sheringham signing and having Nicky Butt on the bench wouldn’t have upset the masses.
It couldn't upset the masses because they were NOT counted as people wanted in the XI. I fail to see how that is remotely relevant to the discussion at hand. Scotland's masses would not be best pleased if a Tierney and Mctominay were benched. Yet there are clear ways to still have them in the first XI
 

arthurka

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Fair enough but McTominay will literally not have one good game in CM in this tournament and for the Level of United he should be standing our for Scotland.
No I agree with McT not being good enough but replacing him with Rice wouldn´t be that much of an upgrade. That´s at least how I see it.
 

Mainoldo

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that your argument was nonsense.


You wish. Its the same darned argument. United had 2 new excellent players they wanted to put in the first xi . One a natural center midfielder. One a natural striker. Both were put into the team to the best advantage of the team in slots that were not traditionally theirs, because their natural slots had proper options there already. Its that simple. It had feck all to do with them 'excelling there". Or "not being elite enough" in their natural roles. The coaching staff already new they were good enough for the jobs there that is why they put them in the team in those non traditional roles.

Its that exact same reason why Scot Mctominay and Tierney are center halves for Scotland. Scotland have Robertson at left back and have the likes of Mcginn and Armstrong in midfield yet no decent center halves. Both Mctominay and Tierney can operate as competent center halves so they play there. To the best advantage of the team enabling it have ALL its best player on the pitch. Its that simple. The same way a guy like Kimmich finds himself at right wingback for Germany. Yet he is an elite DM

Don't try to remix the argument. I talked clearly of putting your best players in the team to the best advantage of the team. Not just throwing players into an xi willy nilly


It couldn't upset the masses because they were NOT counted as people wanted in the XI. I fail to see how that is remotely relevant to the discussion at hand. Scotland's masses would not be best pleased if a Tierney and Mctominay were benched. Yet there are clear ways to still have them in the first XI
Okay appreciate the response as it’s you. But let’s strip this down!

The whole original point was about Rice and McTominay. My point being how can anyone with common sense assume McTominay could do what Rice does for West Ham if he had the same platform when Rice (coming through as a natural CB) would never be compensated to do a ‘team job’ at CB to players the level of Armstrong and McGuinn.

You can say what you like with your best advantage of the team stuff but your best players play in their suited positions as it benefits the team overall. The reason McTominay plays CB is because he’s not good enough to do a Declan Rice job for Scotland which means he’s worth not moving. Tierney plays LCB because he’s too good to drop whilst not being better than Robertson to take his place. It makes sense.

No one is trying to tell me McTominay plays CB because Armstrong is really good and they need both in the team. It’s just not true.
 

Mainoldo

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Xabi Alonso and Dietmer Hamaan. The combo that enabled him become the UCL final hero after half time
Hamann didn’t start in the final and yet again you are jumping into a conversation without going through the history of the point. Otherwise you wouldn’t have brought up Hamann.

But once again appreciate the response:)
 

Mainoldo

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No I agree with McT not being good enough but replacing him with Rice wouldn´t be that much of an upgrade. That´s at least how I see it.
I disagree but not a lot of people rate Rice so I can’t argue with that. But as I’ve said plenty of times once he moved away from West Ham people will start to appreciate how good of a player he really is. He could easily do a Rodri or Jorginho job for City and Chelsea and he could definitely do a better job than what Fred and McTominay try to do as a duo for us. Infact he would improve both players playing next to him.
 

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I am totally convinced that Mejbri can be a superstar for us. “ You can just tell “ I dread us not giving him a chance.
I agree that he will be a great player, but I just don't think it will be for United. I just don't know if he could play in a deeper role and I think he would be best suited to a license to roam as a number 10. But we already have Bruno and hopefully he won't be going anywhere for the next five years or so.
 
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Hamann didn’t start in the final and yet again you are jumping into a conversation without going through the history of the point. Otherwise you wouldn’t have brought up Hamann.

But once again appreciate the response:)
. I haven't any where said Hamann started the final.

I've answered your question about who were better cms than Gerrard in 2005 at Pool.

Then said the Xabi Alonso and Hamman combo enabled him play the hero in the final after pool were 3 nil down as an illustration of the claim I made.

Nothing more.
 

flappyjay

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I disagree but not a lot of people rate Rice so I can’t argue with that. But as I’ve said plenty of times once he moved away from West Ham people will start to appreciate how good of a player he really is. He could easily do a Rodri or Jorginho job for City and Chelsea and he could definitely do a better job than what Fred and McTominay try to do as a duo for us. Infact he would improve both players playing next to him.
No just no. When it comes to defending he fits the bill but it's the fact that he lacks Jorginho and Rodri's passing range that most here don't want him. So no he can't do the same job as those two as they were bought for their passing from deep, more so especially Jorginho.
 

Mainoldo

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. I haven't any where said Hamann started the final.

I've answered your question about who were better cms than Gerrard in 2005 at Pool.

Then said the Xabi Alonso and Hamman combo enabled him play the hero in the final after pool were 3 nil down as an illustration of the claim I made.

Nothing more.
But that was 1 game where he did what he normally did but instead this time he was all over the pitch. Gerrard played hero from CM many times before that so it wasn’t the system that allowed him to do that. In my post I said I bring up points like that for banter but I could never hand on heart say Gerrard needed two DM’s to be captain marvel. That’s not true. When he was badding up CM’s Keane included he did it in a midfield two with no issues. However different time in football and also on the reverse there was no way he shouldn’t have been replacing Mascherano and Alonso in a midfield two and he never.
 

Mainoldo

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No just no. When it comes to defending he fits the bill but it's the fact that he lacks Jorginho and Rodri's passing range that most here don't want him. So no he can't do the same job as those two as they were bought for their passing from deep, more so especially Jorginho.
Jorginho I would agree. He doesn’t play between the lines at that level. But Rodri… no his passing variation and ability to use both feet are as good as Rodri whilst he is also better in positional awareness.
 

K Stand Knut

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Jude will be a Manchester United player within the next 4 years and he will cost a bomb.

We should get his younger brother Jobe here now, laying the groundwork for Jude.
I’ve heard a rumour today that plans are in place for us to get Jobe sooner rather than later.

think it’s very interesting if we do. I think it would be a a clear indication of where we’d be looking for a long-term CM replacement
 
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Okay appreciate the response as it’s you. But let’s strip this down!

The whole original point was about Rice and McTominay. My point being how can anyone with common sense assume McTominay could do what Rice does for West Ham if he had the same platform when Rice (coming through as a natural CB) would never be compensated to do a ‘team job’ at CB to players the level of Armstrong and McGuinn.
A ludicrous assumption to make. If Rice were playing for Scotland right now he'd also be playing at center half. Because he'd be by far their best center half. A department where they have nothing. As opposed to their midfield which is competent with the likes of McGimn and Armstrong playing there instead a player at his or Mctominay's level. Just like Scotland isn't going to sit a Tierney on the bench when he can operate at center half, were there is no one at his level there, and they also have a Robertson at left back. Just like a Kimmich finds himself at right back for Germany.

You have this crazy idea the team would rather use a player in his most natural role at the expense of their overall strength. i.e
A Scotland playing Rice in midfield
at the expense of having a stronger defence. Just because he is best in center midfield.

At this rate you'd probably have a fit to learn at the peak of his powers as a Balon Dor winner center forward. A certain George Weah was operating at center midfield for Liberia. For the exact same reasons.

Ramos for years operated at Rb for Spain whilst being an elite CB at club level. That was the case with Thuram for France back in the day. He was considered the best center half in the serie A yet for Les Blues he was at right back with Blanc and Desailly as center halves instead.

You can say what you like with your best advantage of the team stuff but your best players play in their suited positions as it benefits the team overall.
Only in Utopia. Not the real world.


The reason McTominay plays CB is because he’s not good enough to do a Declan Rice job for Scotland which means he’s worth not moving. Tierney plays LCB because he’s too good to drop whilst not being better than Robertson to take his place. It makes sense.
Double standards at work.
Tierney and McTominay play out of position for the exact same reason. Both are 2 good to drop. Whilst their natural positions have players who can do the job as good as they can. Yet their unnatural positions have no one in their league. Even out of position.

No one is trying to tell me McTominay plays CB because Armstrong is really good and they need both in the team. It’s just not true.
We don't have to try. It's fact. If Scotland followed your logic and benched Armstrong for McTominay. Resulting in a weaker center defence, but a stronger midfield they wouldn't have even made it to the Euros for the first time in ages.
 

Mainoldo

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A ludicrous assumption to make. If Rice were playing for Scotland right now he'd also be playing at center half. Because he'd be by far their best center half. A department where they have nothing. As opposed to their midfield which is competent with the likes of McGimn and Armstrong playing there instead a player at his or Mctominay's level. Just like Scotland isn't going to sit a Tierney on the bench when he can operate at center half, were there is no one at his level there, and they also have a Robertson at left back. Just like a Kimmich finds himself at right back for Germany.

You have this crazy idea the team would rather use a player in his most natural role at the expense of their overall strength. i.e
A Scotland playing Rice in midfield
at the expense of having a stronger defence. Just because he is best in center midfield.

At this rate you'd probably have a fit to learn at the peak of his powers as a Balon Dor winner center forward. A certain George Weah was operating at center midfield for Liberia. For the exact same reasons.

Ramos for years operated at Rb for Spain whilst being an elite CB at club level. That was the case with Thuram for France back in the day. He was considered the best center half in the serie A yet for Les Blues he was at right back with Blanc and Desailly as center halves instead.


Only in Utopia. Not the real world.




Double standards at work.
Tierney and McTominay play out of position for the exact same reason. Both are 2 good to drop. Whilst their natural positions have players who can do the job as good as they can. Yet their unnatural positions have no one in their league. Even out of position.


We don't have to try. It's fact. If Scotland followed your logic and benched Armstrong for McTominay. Resulting in a weaker center defence, but a stronger midfield they wouldn't have even made it to the Euros for the first time in ages.
Kimmech finds himself at RB because he is a RB and also is not rated as highly as Toni Kroos to play CM instead of him.

Tierney plays LCB because he is a very good defender and he’s not better than Robertson. If Robertson didn’t exist he’d be playing LB LWB.

Those are all simple answers so I don’t know why you are complexing out this thing but not just simply accepting McTominay plays RCB because his manager prefers someone else in his natural position.

If Rice played for Scotland McDoogle, Armstrong or whoever wouldn’t be better than him to mean he has to play CB and it’s also the reason why Toni Kroos ain’t playing RCB to accommodate Kimmech in CM.
 

Jibbs

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He will be a good buy for United, nothing exceptional, but like Maguire and AWB, a good, reliable and long term buy. Would probably cost an astronomical sum like the other two.
 

honirelandboy

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Declan Rice offers nothing to what Scott or Fred currently offer. He will be found out against Germany.

Ndidi is actually twice the player Rice is .Locatelli is the way to go, a great deep lying playmaker who will actually make things happen on the pitch.

Fred or Scott or probably good enough to get you top four and that's about it. If you want to be winning champions league and premier league titles Rice is not good enough along with Fred and Scott.
 

croadyman

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My biggest frustration with the guy is his inability to break the line with passes, however IF we somehow kept Pogba then do we need Rice to provide that quite so much and he can just focus on solidity and positional sense which is his strength
 

Floyd

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I’ve heard a rumour today that plans are in place for us to get Jobe sooner rather than later.

think it’s very interesting if we do. I think it would be a a clear indication of where we’d be looking for a long-term CM replacement
Yeah, I've seen it mentioned a few places, not lately though.

Fergie wasn't enough for Jude. Cantona or Beckham next? :)
 

Adnan

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My biggest frustration with the guy is his inability to break the line with passes, however IF we somehow kept Pogba then do we need Rice to provide that quite so much and he can just focus on solidity and positional sense which is his strength
Not for the price West Ham would want (reported to be £90m minimum), which is absurd for a player of his ability. If we want a DM to provide defensive balance, then there's plenty of options around Europe who would likely cost far less and provide a strong platform for the team on the turn over. But a solitary DM will not be able to contain both the defensive half spaces against top quality teams without midfield assistance.
 

arthurka

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I disagree but not a lot of people rate Rice so I can’t argue with that. But as I’ve said plenty of times once he moved away from West Ham people will start to appreciate how good of a player he really is. He could easily do a Rodri or Jorginho job for City and Chelsea and he could definitely do a better job than what Fred and McTominay try to do as a duo for us. Infact he would improve both players playing next to him.
But we don´t need to worry about that he will cost well over 70m so we aren´t going for him in this window.
 

The White Pele

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The more I watch him the more I think there must be better value for money elsewhere. I would rather wait and go big for Bellingham although not a like for like player.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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The more I watch him the more I think there must be better value for money elsewhere. I would rather wait and go big for Bellingham although not a like for like player.
Yeah, he's looked very ordinary in the Euros, and would be completely overpriced for what he offers - quite a limited player
 

honirelandboy

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Compare him to players like Fabinho, Fernandinho, Kante, Frankie De Jong, Veratti he's not in the same league whatsoever.

We don't need any more better than average players at United that will just get you top four and knocked out early in the champions league.
 
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