Rice and Tielemans (Or De Jong if Barcelona need to raise funds)
This team isn't far from being complete. I would argue that for next season, if Ronaldo stays, we're good in attacking positions and just need to strengthen the midfield.
Declan Rice
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This team isn't far from being complete. I would argue that for next season, if Ronaldo stays, we're good in attacking positions and just need to strengthen the midfield.
If you think he's agile and fast, maybe we have different standard. And yes, i think his tackling is average for a supposedly best DM.
What's the issue with his tackling?
Is that he doesn't do it often enough or doesn't win the ball often enough?
Would Owen Hargreaves be a good comparison for Rice?
Not good enough for one of the best DM. Or should I say, one of the most expensive DM. Just watch his tackling.
His positioning is very good, it means he is often there to nip in and intercept, but when needed his tackling is fine. When you say his tackling is average, who are you comparing it to. The thing that impresses me is when he wins the bill, he can drive forward with it as well.He's developing into a more complete player, he's still only 22 remember and still improving. Maybe it's his price that is the issue for you, but if you are buying english players, that's the premium you pay.
The main thing is that Rice isn't a midfielder who chases the ball and makes eye catching tackles like Tchouameni does. Rice is much more a Positional Player - trying to find the best place to be at the right time.
He is first positioning himself so that his own team has the best defensive set up - so if everyone has gone on an attack, what he does is become the player who drops to create a back 3 with the CB'S so the opposition counter attack has to take on exactly that.
Now once his team mates are coming back in to a defensive position - he is still not going for the tackle even if the opposition is near him. This time he is analysing where his team mates are - where the attack is coming from and deciding which place he needs to position himself to A) cover any team mates positional gaps B) the likely attacking position of the opposition.
At this point the opposition realise that the position that was the best for attack has been taken up by Rice - so it slightly slows down the attack. He still hasn't made a tackle.
At this point, the attack has slowed down - the team mates are now back to the best defensive position. Rice notices that his team mates are set up perfectly to handle the attack and then comes out to make a tackle trying to win the ball back.
One of the weaknesses of Rice is that sometimes it doesn't always go perfectly and the opposition have gone completely around him by avoiding him - ie through the side areas of the pitch or when he has gotten a bit too forward.
At this point he is trying to make it back by running back to capture the ball and he does look a bit slow when he is chasing the opposition down on his own goal and make a last minute tackle - but again; I give him the benefit of that because his main game is positional and he isn't going to stop every attack of every game.
He is a player that makes it harder for the opposition to attack than necessarily be a player that goes hunting after the football.I really enjoy watching how teams struggle attacking certain areas purely because Rice has gotten their first.
Well I don't watch a lot of West ham so I was trying to get you to elaborate on what the issue actually is but if you don't want to do that then fair enough.
I’d have Hargreaves (when fit) levels above Rice.
I haven't watched him play at all this year and I've heard he's much improved this season. I took a quick look at the stats and his tackle count is one of the highest in the league so far this year which is why I was asking if it was success rate or not tackling enough as it's a little confusing.
If I understood you right, I agree that tackling in and of itself isn't necessarily a good thing. If you don't make a lot of tackles but have excellent positioning and are making interceptions, for example, then it's not really important.
As for the Tchouameni comparison I know last year he was streets ahead on the tackling front (albeit in a poorer league) but he has 32 tackles this season, 17 of which resulted in his team having possession of the ball and Rice has 30 with 21 successful outcomes and they've both played a similar number of minutes.
You can go into his price tag, his current level, how he fits in here and all that good stuff. But the way Rice seems to have this fairly linear improvement year on year is quite impressive. It says a lot about his drive and commitment. If he carries on like this for another couple of seasons then I don't see how even his biggest detractors can deny he's going to be a top DM.
It's something we seem to really struggle with. A lot of our players in this age bracket seem to take one step forward, two back. False dawns.
It's something we seem to really struggle with. A lot of our players in this age bracket seem to take one step forward, two back. False dawns.
Yep. He’s gone from Irish championship CB to full fledged English top PL level holding midfielder. And I say this as someone who isn’t even a big fan of Rice.
Not sure why you had to work the treachery in there...
Absolutely not. Could you play Rice at right mid in a champions League final? Not a chance.
In last Euro he played a few games. He wasn't that good at tackling, or stealing the ball from opponent.
Kante was even better than Rice now, when the former was at Leicester. Were you comfortable spending 100m or whatever that price conversion at that time?
Anyway. Whenever I watched him, he never stood out for me, that I thought he worth that 80-100m premium price. Not with England, not with West Ham.
I'm expecting the DM quality of peak Mascherano or Casemiro for that price tag.
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He played there and fullback because he wasn't good enough in midfield
The guy looks a monster in midfield and that’s not because it’s only West Ham. I love the way he holds the shape of midfield, he is always there. Disciplined, gritty, has good stamina, rarely gets injured, great at heading, knows when to charge when to sit, perfect age.
He just looks imposing and has that confidence about him ala Van dijk. I don’t know how people don’t see or consider that. Tell me any other DM who looks as imposing as him or has that certain arrogance about him other than maybe Kessie. We need that type of player for the midfield. On top of that he is bloody good on the ball for a DM. Can pick a pass, shoots well, can use both feet, has a good short and long passing range, keeps it simple.
What quality is he actually missing so bad for posters to outright reject him ? Name me a better DM than him who excels in all these attributes as much as him.
He just looks imposing and has that confidence about him ala Van dijk. I don’t know how people don’t see or consider that. Tell me any other DM who looks as imposing as him or has that certain arrogance about him other than maybe Kessie. We need that type of player for the midfield. On top of that he is bloody good on the ball for a DM. Can pick a pass, shoots well, can use both feet, has a good short and long passing range, keeps it simple.
What quality is he actually missing so bad for posters to outright reject him ? Name me a better DM than him who excels in all these attributes as much as him.
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He wasn't good enough to sideline Carrick at United. He's good enough for a German giant club midfielder for years.
Yeah Hargreaves wasn't good enough to get into that outstanding, ultra successful midfield of Gerrard and Lampard. I mean he was only playing in the champions league for Bayern and Man United every week for 5 years or so, completely unproven.
we paid 50 mill for Fred, the market will always be overpriced for us. Once you get past that though he's a very good player who is improving and more importantly a type we need. Could we get better value abroad, 100%.
Mascherano is a strange one though, the Liverpool version certainly wasn't a player I'd hold up as a masterclass at DM. He did well enough I guess but he played in a good mid there with players like Alonso and Gerrard. Barca though he wasn't a success at DM ,so much so after his 1st season he was moved back to centre back.
Not sure that's right at all.
Utd getting mugged in the transfer market for Maguire and Wan Bissaka had made me wary altogether. I do want Rice but I also think at the price he would cost...that would be it. We need a whole new midfield with Matic going, DVB not looking like being given a shot at redemption, Pogba fuking off finally and neither Fred or McT really being of the quality to demand a first team spot. Rice alone doesn’t fix it.
Have you watched This is why Declan Rice is everyone's dream Midfielder on YouTube?
The stars seem primed for Rice to go to Chelsea.
It was for his time with us. Hargreaves being able to play well at right wing or fullback ended up being a great option for the team, but it was also great for him as his performances in central midfield were quite average. He seemed to be a good partner for Anderson (and even then Ando was probably the better performing member of the partnership), but otherwise struggled a fair bit.
Maybe with more time he might have grown into that role, but injuries obviously destroyed him after the first season.
Average compared to some of our best CMs we've had in a very long time. He played 90 mins both legs of the Barca tie and 120 for the final, so I'm not really sure you can say he struggled. Struggled with injury and confidence - yes, but ability he was more than good enough.
Yeah, I don't recall Hargreaves being a flop in central midfield.
Poor lads knees were nackered and after that first season and that was that.
Wasn't just his knees by the end of it, he just started to fall apart all over his body and that spiralled down extremely quickly.
He's better than Casemiro.
He was very good in midfield.
Apparently the English Morgan Schneiderlin to some clueless muppet on here..
They're different types of midfielders
Really good player, but West Ham have priced him out of a move here. The time to have done a deal for him was in the summer. Jesse and £50 mill would have gotten him imo. Moyes has already said hes now worth more than £100 mill and if were not top 4 he wont want to come here anyway.
I agree that this is what should have happened; in fact it’s what I said in the summer. However if it had he’d already be getting stick from our fans because most of them couldn’t see that he’s a quality player on the way up. Now he’s progressing well under a coaching team that support him well. That may not have happened at United and our fans would be slinging abuse at him already
The point was Schneiderlin looks just as good for Southampton as Rice does for West ham.
Team structure and game plan are very important. Rice looks nowhere near as good for England as he does at West Ham, and you have to ask yourself why?
West Ham sit deep regularly, they don't give any space between the lines and aim to counter attack. This suits Rice as he positions himself well in tight areas.
Will that automatically translate to a team that has more space in midfield, expected to contribute more in attack and be higher up the pitch? i'm not convinced.
Not everybody has to believe Rice is the 2nd coming of jesus in midfield you know
he's a good solid player, but is he worth £80m? I have my doubts.Considering West Ham are third and have scored more goals than us, I don’t think he’d have a problem contributing to our midfield.The point was Schneiderlin looks just as good for Southampton as Rice does for West ham.
Team structure and game plan are very important. Rice looks nowhere near as good for England as he does at West Ham, and you have to ask yourself why?
West Ham sit deep regularly, they don't give any space between the lines and aim to counter attack. This suits Rice as he positions himself well in tight areas.
Will that automatically translate to a team that has more space in midfield, expected to contribute more in attack and be higher up the pitch? i'm not convinced.
Not everybody has to believe Rice is the 2nd coming of jesus in midfield you know
Very different players
Makes no difference if they've started well. They play a very different way than what we are aiming for.
Could he fit in if we played deeper and countered more? sure. But that how we aim to play right now.
Yet again though, I don't think anybody is saying he can't contribute, but can he contribute enough while costing £100m? not for me. He isn't that good.
Plenty of better value available.
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