Declan Rice

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El Jefe

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Michael Carrick gets better with every year on here. He was a good player, but he was just Michael Carrick. Let’s not re-write history. Rice has a lot of football left to play in his career, but he’s currently on a totally different pedigree than Carrick ever was. Even good players become overrated here because Carrick is not some sort of all-time great midfielder. He’s Michael Carrick. Rice has probably been the best defensive midfielder in England for two years now. Almost never has a bad game.
Saying he was just Michael Carrick is understating his impact and ability. He was a mainstay in a SAF team for 7 seasons and was a highly decorated player. That's not something most players in the PL accomplish so he was very much a top class centre midfielder.

Saying Rice is on a totally different pedigree now than Carrick ever was is a ridiculous statement. Rice is a very good player and one I would love to have here but Carrick the season before he moved to United was still a better player IMO. Carrick had a game that you knew would transfer perfectly to a top side, there are still question marks about Rice's use of the ball at the highest level.

Carrick came through when Scholes, Fabregas, Gerrard, Lampard, Essien etc were all in the league, the level of competition in CM was far above what Rice has at present. Make no mistake about it a 24 year old Carrick would be one of the most sought after players today, especially coming off the season he just had at Tottenham.

Even though Carrick was much older than Rice is today but he was pretty much a one man midfield the last time we won the league, now that's a level Rice has never reached.
 

Righteous Steps

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Carrick who was barely an international player. He was never in any sort of conversation of the very best PL midfielders, which Rice has been for a while, which is what I mean by pedigree.
In a generation of Scholes Gerrard Lampard Hargreaves Barry, Rice is barely an international player also, in a generation of Essien Scholes Lampard Makelele Gerrard Fabregas Alonso Mascherano Gilberto Silva he isn’t one of the very best Pl midfielders either.

Rice is good but his profile isn’t too dissimilar from a Carrick at Spurs.
 

Andrew7582

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Not that I’m one of these Opta boffs, but I’d guess Rice ‘keeps the ball’ at least as well as Carrick did. He rarely gives it away.

And so what if you’d take Busquets over him. Busquets is also a lot better than Carrick.
Rice doesn't have the ability to pass between the lines and progress play that Carrick had, not even close. Rice won't look as good in a more expansive system, his weaknesses will be more exposed just as Maguire's have been. When Rice receives the ball in his own half under pressure he is slow on the turn, and that paired with his lack of passing range makes him an obvious pressing target for opponents. These weaknesses aren't as much of an issue in a David Moyes team but they will be in a more expansive system. I guarantee you if we sign him united fans will be complaining about these things in no time and asking why we spent so much on a player with these limitations.
 

Rozay

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Rice doesn't have the ability to pass between the lines and progress play that Carrick had, not even close. Rice won't look as good in a more expansive system, his weaknesses will be more exposed just as Maguire's have been. When Rice receives the ball in his own half under pressure he is slow on the turn, and that paired with his lack of passing range makes him an obvious pressing target for opponents. These weaknesses aren't as much of an issue in a David Moyes team but they will be in a more expansive system. I guarantee you if we sign him united fans will be complaining about these things in no time and asking why we spent so much on a player with these limitations.
Yet despite him being so slow and vulnerable to pressing, he still rarely gives the ball away.
 

Rozay

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Rice doesn't have the ability to pass between the lines and progress play that Carrick had, not even close. Rice won't look as good in a more expansive system, his weaknesses will be more exposed just as Maguire's have been. When Rice receives the ball in his own half under pressure he is slow on the turn, and that paired with his lack of passing range makes him an obvious pressing target for opponents. These weaknesses aren't as much of an issue in a David Moyes team but they will be in a more expansive system. I guarantee you if we sign him united fans will be complaining about these things in no time and asking why we spent so much on a player with these limitations.
Rice carries the ball forward far better than Carrick ever did.
 

edcunited1878

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In a generation of Scholes Gerrard Lampard Hargreaves Barry, Rice is barely an international player also, in a generation of Essien Scholes Lampard Makelele Gerrard Fabregas Alonso Mascherano Gilberto Silva he isn’t one of the very best Pl midfielders either.

Rice is good but his profile isn’t too dissimilar from a Carrick at Spurs.
Carrick at Spurs was a more advanced central midfield player. He then was able to work his way back as a traditional central midfielder paired with a single central midfield partner, then was able to be a deep lying playmaker.

Rice is an anchor midfielder and more of a screener than deep lying play maker. And unless you really watched Carrick in person and just focused on him, he was a metronome with the ball. He kept the ball and momentum ticking. Short pass, short pass, line breaking pass. He won the league with Tom Cleverly as his running mate. If you put Carrick in the City team for Rodri, you wouldn't know the difference.
 

edcunited1878

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Rice carries the ball forward far better than Carrick ever did.
McTominay might be a better ball carrier than Carras...but the ball travels faster and more efficiently via a pass than a player carrying it, especially in the middle of the park. Anderson was a strong ball carrier too.
 

Rozay

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McTominay might be a better ball carrier than Carras...but the ball travels faster and more efficiently via a pass than a player carrying it, especially in the middle of the park. Anderson was a strong ball carrier too.
McTominay and Anderson are/were good ball carriers, that is correct. Is this supposed to be some sort of negative? And Rice is a better passer than both of them anyway.
 

Rozay

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We won't be signing him to be a box to box midfielder though, I am talking about progressing the play with passing.
You have no idea what we’d be signing him as, but logic would suggest it is to do whatever it is that he has been doing. So if he has carried it forward well, then I imagine he’d carry it forward well here too.
 

edcunited1878

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McTominay and Anderson are/were good ball carriers, that is correct. Is this supposed to be some sort of negative?
No, but you're missing the point when you need to have a better passing range if your team really needs to improve their midfield to another level or two. What's the point of carrying the ball up until 30 yards to the opponent's goal in a central position if you're unable to make line breaking passes through the lines or above the lines with regular tempo? You're just going to pass it sideways or out to the wings...did nothing to breakdown the defensive block.

Michael Carrick was a vastly superior passer and creative player and metronome than Rice. Rice would be a great replacement for McTominay, who's best position is as an 8, not 6.
 

Andrew7582

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What does the system have to do with him dealing with being pressed?
Do you really need me to explain this to you, this is football 101. West Ham don't focus on playing out from the back as much, they go long a lot more, mainly into Souckek.

You have no idea what we’d be signing him as, but logic would suggest it is to do whatever it is that he has been doing. So if he has carried it forward well, then I imagine he’d carry it forward well here too.
It's a defensive midfielder that we are lacking not a box to box player, we already have Fred and Mctominay who can do that.
 

Rozay

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No, but you're missing the point when you need to have a better passing range if your team really needs to improve their midfield to another level or two. What's the point of carrying the ball up until 30 yards to the opponent's goal in a central position if you're unable to make line breaking passes through the lines or above the lines with regular tempo? You're just going to pass it sideways or out to the wings...did nothing to breakdown the defensive block.

Michael Carrick was a vastly superior passer and creative player and metronome than Rice. Rice would be a great replacement for McTominay, who's best position is as an 8, not 6.
You need to have a lot of things to improve your team’s midfield. And Rice has a fair few of them. Carrick did not have all of them himself. If he could also carry the ball, he’d have been a better player than he was, but he couldn’t, and Rice can. Passing and ball carrying are both useful qualities. Stopping your team getting played through would also improve the team a lot. Carrick had a better range of passing than Rice. He also had a better range if passing than Keane, Fernandinho and Kanté. That isn’t the end of the story.
 

Rozay

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Do you really need me to explain this to you, this is football 101. West Ham don't focus on playing out from the back as much, they go long a lot more, mainly into Souckek.



It's a defensive midfielder that we are lacking not a box to box player, we already have Fred and Mctominay who can do that.
Yes please professor explain to me for I know nothing. System is irrelevant, whatever system West Ham play results in Rice rarely giving the ball away, whether he is passing it long or short.

And what we are lacking in your opinion is only one thing. We don’t play with a defensive midfielder for a start. Maybe we should do. But we don’t. We play with a double pivot, exactly as West Ham do. Both Rice and Soucek get forward, just as Scott and Fred do.
 

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You have no idea what we’d be signing him as, but logic would suggest it is to do whatever it is that he has been doing. So if he has carried it forward well, then I imagine he’d carry it forward well here too.
We dont need ball carriers. Quite the opposite, it'd be a liability in this team.
People are questioning his ball playing ability as a dm, if were judging hiim as a cm then hes miles off.
 
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edcunited1878

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You need to have a lot of things to improve your team’s midfield. And Rice has a fair few of them. Carrick did not have all of them himself. If he could also carry the ball, he’d have been a better player than he was, but he couldn’t, and Rice can. Passing and ball carrying are both useful qualities. Stopping your team getting played through would also improve the team a lot. Carrick had a better range of passing than Rice. He also had a better range if passing than Keane, Fernandinho and Kanté. That isn’t the end of the story.
Declan Rice is a reported 100M pound player. For that type of player, they must be able to pass a ball and have technical ability at a high level, no questions asked, and then some. For that money, give me a Kimmich, Veratti, Fabinho, type player.

For half that amount, plus an additional player anywhere on the park, I'd take a punt on João Palhinha and another player, plus drafting in Garner. Palhinha, Fred, McTominay, Garner. Build around that and allow Matic to stay on another season to guide these players, play part time, and see if Hannibal can play as an 8 while Bruno plays a more "disciplined" role as an 8.

Whether or not Rice comes, he's a similar profile of player to McTominay, but with better passing and physical attributes. Not the type of player United need to round out their midfield. Just look at what Matic does when available, that's the type of player to use. And he's a shithouser too.
 

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I know this forum has a disagreement over Pogba but it would be silly to dismiss Pogba's abilities. On his day, he can be absolutely superb player but it does come in patches over a season. I doubt Carrick in place of Pogba (before Bruno arrived) would have improved that team a lot. We did not use Pogba properly, we needed a strong team around him , others doing dirty work just like we had with Ronaldo, although Ronaldo with ball was a different player compared to Pogba with ball.

Pogba was a big let down to all of us who had hopes he would deliver in whole season and probably bring some titles. Club is stupid for not selling Pogba few seasons back, especially after buying Bruno and investing that in the CM/CF.
Looking back, may be we would have been better backing Mou when had a fall out with Pogba. We are in worse position than Mou left us.
Pogba is a good fotballer, but not a very good CM. Carrick would improve us alot in that apartment. A lot
 

Bondi77

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Saying he was just Michael Carrick is understating his impact and ability. He was a mainstay in a SAF team for 7 seasons and was a highly decorated player. That's not something most players in the PL accomplish so he was very much a top class centre midfielder.

Saying Rice is on a totally different pedigree now than Carrick ever was is a ridiculous statement. Rice is a very good player and one I would love to have here but Carrick the season before he moved to United was still a better player IMO. Carrick had a game that you knew would transfer perfectly to a top side, there are still question marks about Rice's use of the ball at the highest level.

Carrick came through when Scholes, Fabregas, Gerrard, Lampard, Essien etc were all in the league, the level of competition in CM was far above what Rice has at present. Make no mistake about it a 24 year old Carrick would be one of the most sought after players today, especially coming off the season he just had at Tottenham.

Even though Carrick was much older than Rice is today but he was pretty much a one man midfield the last time we won the league, now that's a level Rice has never reached.
If Carrick was around today then Pep would have him at Citeh and would pay 100mil for the privilege
 

Adnan

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I think I'd take Rice over Carrick in today's game. And the reason I say that is because football has changed a little since Carrick was in his peak. Now you have teams that apply coordinated high pressure and don't give time on the ball to players like Carrick to dictate play. So IMO, Rice is more suited to playing as the anchor in today's game in comparison to Carrick.

A player like Carrick is better suited to playing next to a Declan Rice, because if the intention is to apply a high press, then you need players in the defensive transition who will be ready to thwart opposition counters in the event the oppo evades the first lines of the press, which will happen, and I'd rather have Declan Rice as the last man in that Scenario, rather than Carrick, because positioning alone isn't going to help, and being agile/mobile is a big advantage to defend a large space. Rice also keeps the ball really well and can pass comfortably with both feet and is mobile/agile to cover ground quickly in comparison to Carrick.
 

El Jefe

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I think I'd take Rice over Carrick in today's game. And the reason I say that is because football has changed a little since Carrick was in his peak. Now you have teams that apply coordinated high pressure and don't give time on the ball to players like Carrick to dictate play. So IMO, Rice is more suited to playing as the anchor in today's game in comparison to Carrick.

A player like Carrick is better suited to playing next to a Declan Rice, because if the intention is to apply a high press, then you need players in the defensive transition who will be ready to thwart opposition counters in the event the oppo evades the first lines of the press, which will happen, and I'd rather have Declan Rice as the last man in that Scenario, rather than Carrick, because positioning alone isn't going to help, and being agile/mobile is a big advantage to defend a large space. Rice also keeps the ball really well and can pass comfortably with both feet and is mobile/agile to cover ground quickly in comparison to Carrick.
How was Jorginho able to win the CL and Euros then being one of Italy and Chelsea's best players then?

Ability on the ball is and will almost be the most import ability for a midfielder no matter the era. Carrick was actually very comfortable when being pressed, he was two footed and always had an effective shimmy to create space to handle pressure. His weakness was his strength when players were overly aggressive on him but it didn't happen that often.

Carrick is basically a less physical version of Rodri with better passing, they are pretty even to me and Rodri is certainly better than Rice.
 

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How was Jorginho able to win the CL and Euros then being one of Italy and Chelsea's best players then?

Ability on the ball is and will almost be the most import ability for a midfielder no matter the era. Carrick was actually very comfortable when being pressed, he was two footed and always had an effective shimmy to create space to handle pressure. His weakness was his strength when players were overly aggressive on him but it didn't happen that often.

Carrick is basically a less physical version of Rodri with better passing, they are pretty even to me and Rodri is certainly better than Rice.
Jorginho is most effective if the game is played in front of him and not behind him. And from what I saw of Italy in the Euro's, they defended with more players than they were attacking with, which helps Jorginho. Against England in the final, England didn't press high, so it was easy for players like Jorginho to help transition play without having to deal with opposition high pressure.

And from what I've seen of Chelsea this season, Jorginho has been on the bench and Kovacic and Kante have played in midfield in the big games.

Nobody is saying ability on the ball isn't important for any player, hence people like me were against the signing of Aaron Wan Bissaka. But Rice is good on the ball, and his ability to retain possession and pass with both feet comfortably is easily noticeable. But there's a reality in the game today, and both offensive and defensive transitions have to be taken into consideration if we're to challenge Jurgen Klopp and Guardiola at City.

When Carrick was in his peak, pressing high in a coordinated press wasn't a thing in the EPL. Teams in the league would retreat after losing the ball, which is very different to what we see now with teams looking to stay in a compact high block to squeeze the pitch. The only time I've seen Carrick pressed in a coordinated fashion was against Barcelona in the Champions league final, and he just couldn't handle it. No mobility or agility and the passing game went to pot because he couldn't evade the opponent's press.
 

Isotope

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How was Jorginho able to win the CL and Euros then being one of Italy and Chelsea's best players then?

Ability on the ball is and will almost be the most import ability for a midfielder no matter the era. Carrick was actually very comfortable when being pressed, he was two footed and always had an effective shimmy to create space to handle pressure. His weakness was his strength when players were overly aggressive on him but it didn't happen that often.

Carrick is basically a less physical version of Rodri with better passing, they are pretty even to me and Rodri is certainly better than Rice.
Not long ago, Bayern won CL with Thiago in midfield dictating play also. Then there was Pogba with France or Germany with Kroos won WC.
 

Bebestation

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I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings on here :

But whenever I watch Rice - the first thing that comes to my head is how he is tactically brilliant at blocking off the central opposition attack before the attack has even reached him. The further you watch Rice from (paying attention to the whole West ham team instead) the more it looks like he does absolutely crap all for a full 90 mins.

He is just always positions at the right place at the right time which leaves the opposition team having to usually go around him than to try take him on centrally.

He has blocked off the passing lanes centrally of an attack leaving the opposition to go out wide through a pass.

Rice is constantly positioning himself to the point that he is the one who gives West Ham their tactical shape. Its not Soucek who is on the other side of the pitch. Its not Lanzini who is creating or attacking in the final third. It's Rice.

For me he is absolutely brilliant tactically and I feel that people who don't appreciate what he does simply don't see that tactical aspect of football that is being played by Rice.

Its no use to talk about Rice's unseen ability to dribble out of a collective press with ease because whilst from distance he looks like a non technical player, the more you watch him the more you realise the things he does that he simply shouldn't have been able to. He takes the ball on runs through the match when he feels that the rest of the West Ham need a goal. He also starts taking more risks with his passing in the last quarter of the game which starts showing that he can pass the ball but doesn't want to take unnecessary risks which can lead to his own team getting attacked on the counter. (Aka the opposite to Bruno's mistakes that some people don't like ).

If Ten Hag comes here then I'm pretty sure then Rice will be looked at quite deep because Ten Hag's tactics and Rice's natural game of falling in to a back 3, dribbling out with the ball, protecting the central space and passing the ball to other players actually mix and match very well. Ten Hag maybe able to find a cheaper option, but to me that tactic is not going anywhere and for that reason Rice will be looked as the more defensively solid version of Ten hag's hybrid CB/CDM player whilst someone like De Jong should be looked at as the more creative option of the same player.
 
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Adnan

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Not long ago, Bayern won CL with Thiago in midfield dictating play also. Then there was Pogba with France or Germany with Kroos won WC.
Pogba isn't a DM though is he, if he was we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Kroos played as a #8 for Germany in the World Cup final, if I'm not mistaken. And at Madrid, Casemiro is the one that has given both Modric and Kroos the platform to excel.

Thiago played alongside Goretzka in a two man midfield for Bayern when they won the UCL. Bayern also had Kimmich at RB who was more than capable of coming into midfield and solidified their central areas. They also had CBs who were comfortable playing in a compact high block as the last line of defence near the half way line.

I think the Real Madrid midfield of Casemiro as the DM and Modric and Kroos as the #8s is the way forward imo. Modric is the perfect player both offensively and defensively due to his undoubted ability on the ball, as well as his ability off the ball. He was a very mobile and agile player both on and off the ball, which is a advantage in the game today.
 

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The price is pretty high and I can understand the reservations, and I have them myself. But he would be a good player for us now it looks like Tchouameni is Madrid bound.

 

Yagami

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Michael Carrick was our one constant in midfield during the clubs best ever period. It was usually him as the first name on the team sheet, then a Scholes, Anderson, Fletcher, Hargreaves, Giggs, etc.

Rice will do very, very well to come anywhere near his level.
 

Bebestation

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Carrick> Rice for Passing ability of CDM

Rice > Carrick defending ability of CDM
 

Yagami

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Carrick> Rice for Passing ability of CDM

Rice > Carrick defending ability of CDM
Your post above about Rice's defensive positioning is good, but it was the same for Carrick, imo.

people look back on that team and just think of VdS, Rio, Vidic & Evra when it came to how brilliantly we were defensively, but Carrick was as important as any of them. The way he covered ground and space - whilst in a midfield two with a mid thirties Scholes - was as impressive as what Rice does.
 

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Pogba isn't a DM though is he, if he was we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Kroos played as a #8 for Germany in the World Cup final, if I'm not mistaken. And at Madrid, Casemiro is the one that has given both Modric and Kroos the platform to excel.

Thiago played alongside Goretzka in a two man midfield for Bayern when they won the UCL. Bayern also had Kimmich at RB who was more than capable of coming into midfield and solidified their central areas. They also had CBs who were comfortable playing in a compact high block as the last line of defence near the half way line.

I think the Real Madrid midfield of Casemiro as the DM and Modric and Kroos as the #8s is the way forward imo. Modric is the perfect player both offensively and defensively due to his undoubted ability on the ball, as well as his ability off the ball. He was a very mobile and agile player both on and off the ball, which is a advantage in the game today.
There just many ways to skin the cat. Bayern under Heynckes is my favorite. 4-4-1-1 with 2 DM/CM comfortable spraying passes.

But then Klopp's 4-3-3 with no CM controller has been very successful either.
 

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Carrick> Rice for Passing ability of CDM

Rice > Carrick defending ability of CDM
Nah, Carrick was just as good tactically as Rice. Probably even better. Carrick would do the job that was needed of him. If we needed him to protect the defence, he would do that. If we needed him to be more of a playmaker, he would do that too. In 10/11, when Man Utd reached the CL-final, Carrick made 2,7 tackles per 90 min (barely making any fouls) and 4,4 interceptions per 90 min in the CL-campaign. That is Kante at his prime type of numbers, but his biggest strenght was still to prevent attacks from ever happening. He was so underrated.

But yes, Rice is very good. Maybe he can become as good as Carrick off the ball one day, but there is a long way to go. Even Carrick at 23 (or even 26) was as good as Carrick 28-32.
 
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DomesticTadpole

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The price is pretty high and I can understand the reservations, and I have them myself. But he would be a good player for us now it looks like Tchouameni is Madrid bound.

Trouble is if West Ham somehow go and win this he will have his CL football.
 

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Saying he was just Michael Carrick is understating his impact and ability. He was a mainstay in a SAF team for 7 seasons and was a highly decorated player. That's not something most players in the PL accomplish so he was very much a top class centre midfielder.

Saying Rice is on a totally different pedigree now than Carrick ever was is a ridiculous statement. Rice is a very good player and one I would love to have here but Carrick the season before he moved to United was still a better player IMO. Carrick had a game that you knew would transfer perfectly to a top side, there are still question marks about Rice's use of the ball at the highest level.

Carrick came through when Scholes, Fabregas, Gerrard, Lampard, Essien etc were all in the league, the level of competition in CM was far above what Rice has at present. Make no mistake about it a 24 year old Carrick would be one of the most sought after players today, especially coming off the season he just had at Tottenham.

Even though Carrick was much older than Rice is today but he was pretty much a one man midfield the last time we won the league, now that's a level Rice has never reached.
Michael Carrick was our one constant in midfield during the clubs best ever period. It was usually him as the first name on the team sheet, then a Scholes, Anderson, Fletcher, Hargreaves, Giggs, etc.

Rice will do very, very well to come anywhere near his level.
Agreed.
 

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There just many ways to skin the cat. Bayern under Heynckes is my favorite. 4-4-1-1 with 2 DM/CM comfortable spraying passes.

But then Klopp's 4-3-3 with no CM controller has been very successful either.
I like both setups mate and wish we had a peak Schweinsteiger at the club who was comfortable with the game infront of him aswell as behind him.

Klopp does it slightly differently but his midfielders are strong both with the game infront of them, as well as behind them.

Casemiro is among the most successful DMs ever and his passing range was never expansive, but his ability to simplify his game in possession as well as having the ability to defend large space, was the key to making a midfield 3 of himself, Modric and Kroos, the best in the world for a sustained period of time in Europe. And their domination in Europe is testament to that.
 

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Great player, but I don't think he's what we need - we need more reliable creativity and playmaking from deep imo. Whilst we also desperately need a DM, for how much he'd cost, I don't think it'd be a smart purchase.
 
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