Vlaar would solve nothing, he is as injury prone as the rest of them at the moment.
Defensive overhaul
- Thread starter Señor
- Start date
He played 32 out of 38 Premier League games last season, that's a massive step up on Evans who played 17, Jones who played 26 and Smalling who played 25.
This is probably true. However, by the time we repair our defence will we be out of the running for top 4 again? Missing out on top 4 for 2 years running is not part of the plan.
I thought in the summer (and still think) that we desperately need a top class central defender (of Hummels type not Rojo) and a decent right back (e.g. Clyne) who is not injury prone. Otherwise we can forget top four let alone a title challenge - I suspect that top four will be beyond us this season unless we can address this in January (never ideal)
His injuries seem to be growing at a steady rate, I think 80% of his injuries are calf or ankle related which has to be a worry. He will be 30 by the time we have a chance to buy him and I can only see it getting worse for him. We would have to offer him a 3 year contract which is not something we usaully do for players in their 30's.
Perosnally Id rather stick with McNair and hope that we get a few players to stay injury free for the remainder of the season.
Shaw is decent and will get better also we have cover in rojo and Blackett so LB is ok.
Our main issues are RB and CBs. In January we need to bin smalling and Evans, suppose we would keep jones but wouldn't be bothered if he left too, all 3 are cripples plus they haven't fulfilled their potential. You can't use the oh they're young excuse forever.
As for RB, I like his energy but Rafael plays more like a winger than defender, then he's caught out of position all the time then he gives away stupid fouls by making rash challenges plus he's very injury prone we simply can't rely on him. Only other back up is Valencia and the less said about that the better.
In January go for
Vlaar
Vertonghen
Coleman or Clyne (one of...be tough to get and expensive as hell but well worth it)
Shaw----vertonghen----vlaar----Coleman/Clyne
Our main issues are RB and CBs. In January we need to bin smalling and Evans, suppose we would keep jones but wouldn't be bothered if he left too, all 3 are cripples plus they haven't fulfilled their potential. You can't use the oh they're young excuse forever.
As for RB, I like his energy but Rafael plays more like a winger than defender, then he's caught out of position all the time then he gives away stupid fouls by making rash challenges plus he's very injury prone we simply can't rely on him. Only other back up is Valencia and the less said about that the better.
In January go for
Vlaar
Vertonghen
Coleman or Clyne (one of...be tough to get and expensive as hell but well worth it)
Shaw----vertonghen----vlaar----Coleman/Clyne
Knowing Everton, we would probably end up paying £30m for Coleman.
We should go after Clyne imo, and a CB to replace one of Jones/Smalling/Evans one of them has to go imo, even just for their respective injury records.
Add to that.
Vlaar will be 30, he is currently going through a spell of being injured and we will have to give him at the very least a 3 year contract.
Vertonghen, Spurs will not sell to a direct rival, especially in January.
Clyne, We will have to pay well over his current market value, and quite frankly he wouldnt be worth it.
Yeah you're right but if we want top 4 we have to pay what it takes to get the best. We certainly won't get top4 with our current defence. It'll be like summer window all over again people know we are desperate for defenders so as soon as we show any interest in a player his price will raise though the roof. I like McNair and Blackett but they are still too raw and need to be steadily brought into first team action not thrust in there straight away although they have done well.
At a guess
Vlaar £15 million
Vertonghen £15-20 million
Coleman/Clyne £25-30 million
If we did go for these players we could be looking at a £60 mill spend in January which is a hell of a lot but the fact is we need to do it to help us get top 4. It wouldn't be too disruptive as they all have a good amount of prem experience and all speak good English so there won't be a settling in period.
I'd love for us to go out and sign these in January they'd all improve out team by far but of course it's real life and not fifa so it'll be hard.
Instant is the way...
Vlaars contract runs out in the summer.Yeah you're right but if we want top 4 we have to pay what it takes to get the best. We certainly won't get top4 with our current defence. It'll be like summer window all over again people know we are desperate for defenders so as soon as we show any interest in a player his price will raise though the roof. I like McNair and Blackett but they are still too raw and need to be steadily brought into first team action not thrust in there straight away although they have done well.
At a guess
Vlaar £15 million
Vertonghen £15-20 million
Coleman/Clyne £25-30 million
If we did go for these players we could be looking at a £60 mill spend in January which is a hell of a lot but the fact is we need to do it to help us get top 4. It wouldn't be too disruptive as they all have a good amount of prem experience and all speak good English so there won't be a settling in period.
I'd love for us to go out and sign these in January they'd all improve out team by far but of course it's real life and not fifa so it'll be hard.
It's weird, if you gave me 100m and a choice: "buy a new back four, or have zero injuries ever again."
I'd choose the latter.
I'd choose the latter.
Vlaar is not a CB that we could start challenging for the title again.
Our next CB buy should be one that could (IF) we return to challenging will still be our CB.
Our next CB buy should be one that could (IF) we return to challenging will still be our CB.
I wouldnt mind holding on to Jones,Smalling,Rafael and Evans but use them as back up players due to their injury records.
Perhaps with the limited appearances they wont get injured as much and can be useful as squad players but nothing more.
Perhaps with the limited appearances they wont get injured as much and can be useful as squad players but nothing more.
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Agree entirely with this thread, the entire back 5 apart from De Gea and Shaw aren't good enough/reliable enough.
Rafael can't stay fit, and is still rash at times. He needs proper competition, and he's over-rated by us on this forum. I love the guy, but he needs someone as good as him in the squad to provide competition to him. We should of took Sagna on a free in the summer. Clyne or Coleman in England are the two best that could realistic, but both would cost a fortune. Wouldn't surprise me if both are £18m+. Piszczek from Dortmund could be another, he has had injury problems of his own though. Van Der Wiel at PSG too.
Evans at his age should be established as our top centre half. He's not, and he can't stay fit. At 27 he should be shown the door. Smalling at 25 isn't far behind, and his ability on the ball is shocking. Jones at 22 has injury problems, but is younger and has further room to develop. Rojo has just signed and I'm far from convinced by him. Evans and Smalling should be shown the door and 2 new centre halfs brought in.
Rafael can't stay fit, and is still rash at times. He needs proper competition, and he's over-rated by us on this forum. I love the guy, but he needs someone as good as him in the squad to provide competition to him. We should of took Sagna on a free in the summer. Clyne or Coleman in England are the two best that could realistic, but both would cost a fortune. Wouldn't surprise me if both are £18m+. Piszczek from Dortmund could be another, he has had injury problems of his own though. Van Der Wiel at PSG too.
Evans at his age should be established as our top centre half. He's not, and he can't stay fit. At 27 he should be shown the door. Smalling at 25 isn't far behind, and his ability on the ball is shocking. Jones at 22 has injury problems, but is younger and has further room to develop. Rojo has just signed and I'm far from convinced by him. Evans and Smalling should be shown the door and 2 new centre halfs brought in.
We really aren't too far away. I think we just need a top class right footed center back and a backup right back to either push Rafael on or take his place eventually.
Rojo seems fine to me, and with a top class defender beside him I think he would look much better. We need someone with some leadership qualities about him though, someone to take control and calm down the younger players around him.
We can let Smalling Jones and Evans fight it out to see who should get to stay.
Rojo seems fine to me, and with a top class defender beside him I think he would look much better. We need someone with some leadership qualities about him though, someone to take control and calm down the younger players around him.
We can let Smalling Jones and Evans fight it out to see who should get to stay.
thats last season. This season he's been injured a lot
Whilst I certainly think that we could really need an established and experienced centre back, we wouldn't solve all of our defensive problems by signing one of the big names. We need to defend better as a unit, as defending starts up front and everybody needs to put a shift in. We make it hard for ourselves at times, as we are to rash in certain situations and that applies for everybody, not just the back four. It's more obvious when they make the mistakes and therefore easy for people to say "our defence isn't up to the standard we need at United", but you see teams with a lot less quality defending better, because they defend as a team.
I think that Evans, Jones, Smalling and Rojo all have the quality to be United players, but whilst I'm confident about their ability, we really need to take their injury records into consideration. Evans has been the longest servant of them and as far as I remember without looking statistics up, he has been injured for lenghty periods multiple times over pretty much every season he played for us (please correct me if untrue). The same applies to Jones down to his style of being a lion hearted defender and Smalling also. Evans should be our leading figure at the back considering age, experience and maturity but without him, we have talented but still inexperienced players at leading the back line in Smalling (24) and Jones (22). Rojo (24) just joined us and still has to adapt to the team/league and also has the language barrier, so I wouldn't take him into consideration for that role just yet.
The question I'm asking myself is, how much time should we give someone like Evans for example, who has been at the club for a long period now, to prove that he is physically capable over the course of the season to lead the back four?
I'm really not questioning his ablities, as I really like his style, but we really should think about that and find a solution. We just can't afford to have so many injuries at the back all the time, because we need to get to a certain level of naturalness in defence which only comes with consistency. It is a process, but in order for that process to take place, we need players fit and playing. We are three months into the season now and are still on the same level as we were, when we started pre season.
I think that Evans, Jones, Smalling and Rojo all have the quality to be United players, but whilst I'm confident about their ability, we really need to take their injury records into consideration. Evans has been the longest servant of them and as far as I remember without looking statistics up, he has been injured for lenghty periods multiple times over pretty much every season he played for us (please correct me if untrue). The same applies to Jones down to his style of being a lion hearted defender and Smalling also. Evans should be our leading figure at the back considering age, experience and maturity but without him, we have talented but still inexperienced players at leading the back line in Smalling (24) and Jones (22). Rojo (24) just joined us and still has to adapt to the team/league and also has the language barrier, so I wouldn't take him into consideration for that role just yet.
The question I'm asking myself is, how much time should we give someone like Evans for example, who has been at the club for a long period now, to prove that he is physically capable over the course of the season to lead the back four?
I'm really not questioning his ablities, as I really like his style, but we really should think about that and find a solution. We just can't afford to have so many injuries at the back all the time, because we need to get to a certain level of naturalness in defence which only comes with consistency. It is a process, but in order for that process to take place, we need players fit and playing. We are three months into the season now and are still on the same level as we were, when we started pre season.
Rubbish, we have got quality defenders, its posts like this that really annoy me. I’ll say it again, we have conceded four more goals than Chelsea but scored ten less than them, our defenders have been plagued with injuries were Chelsea have only had to change their back four once, and that was due to a suspension. We should be giving our dfensive players credit instead of slagging them off at every opportunity, yes they may be injury prone and we have to do something about it but those that have stepped in have done a more than acceptable job.
We missed Rafael yesterday, he is fantastic going forward and for me is one of our most consistent player, it would be good to have competition for him but his form hasn’t dropped because of it. Evans has established himself, Jones is an England international and Smalling is a more than capable player. The very least you could do is give Rojo a chance before judging him, he’s barely played with the same back four since he joined.
I agree with that guy too,
Smalling, jones and Evans are NOT defenders a team like us should be relying on. None of these have developed into players they had the potential to become they wouldn't look out of place at a mid table club. The main problem is they seem to be made of glass and can't stay fit. You say we've only conceded a few more goals than Chelsea but that's mainly down to de gea being in amazing form and saving everything. He has pulled off 6 or 7 world class saves already this year.
Rojo looks pretty average so far tbh for some reason my heart skips a beat when he has the ball or he has to challenge for a ball. He always looks like he has a mistake in him. He is new though and deserves time and a regular partner.
The only issue I have with our defence are the amount of rash challengers/last ditch-tackle merchants we have. Rojo kind of joined the club yesterday and I do wonder if it's simply the lack of a calming influence at the back?
We could go for a blockbuster signing, but I'd take a steady eddie (and much scoffed at) Gary Cahill-type player at the moment.
Agree about the attack. Di Maria had an off day yesterday (those corners!)
The only reason we can’t rely on them is due to injuries, those saying they are talentless are simply wrong, how can you build a solid relationship when we have barely managed to play the same four at the back all season. No team could cope with it, and as I’ve said several times now they are becoming the scapegoats when maybe we should be looking elsewhere.
Posters have said we should get in Vlaar, a 30yo who has missed most of the season through injury, others have said Vertonghen, no way will Spurs sell to us in January. The truth is there aren’t many defenders out there who we can get, I’m not saying we shouldn’t look but when posters are comparing our current back four to some of the best we’ve ever had they are never going to be happy.
Personally, I think they’ve done a decent job, that area needs looked at yes but some of the things posted are nauseating to say the least.
De Gea has been in fantastic, but so has Courtois, and he's been playing behind a solid back four all season.
I would honestly be quite happy to see us sell all of Evans/Smalling/Jones and just start again with the defence.
We also need another right back. Why we haven't bought another one in over the past few years, considering how injury prove Rafa is, is utterly mental.
We also need another right back. Why we haven't bought another one in over the past few years, considering how injury prove Rafa is, is utterly mental.
I actually thought the defenders pretty good in the last two games, bar Smalling losing the plot. Especially considering how much we've had to change the line-up. Agree that injuries are a major concern though, and it's reached the tipping point for me.
Who can we get in January though? It's slim pickings for the top players that time of year. Dortmund won't sell Hummels or Subotic (who's looked dodgy of late), but could be tempted next summer. I don't watch enough Spanish football to know about Laporte, but if he's good enough maybe Herrera can have a word.
It's definitely not as straight-forward as some are making it sound. This will take at least another two windows to sort out, and even then just throwing money at the problem doesn't guarantee a solution.
Who can we get in January though? It's slim pickings for the top players that time of year. Dortmund won't sell Hummels or Subotic (who's looked dodgy of late), but could be tempted next summer. I don't watch enough Spanish football to know about Laporte, but if he's good enough maybe Herrera can have a word.
It's definitely not as straight-forward as some are making it sound. This will take at least another two windows to sort out, and even then just throwing money at the problem doesn't guarantee a solution.
He's been an sbsolute disaster for Inter this season, from all reports.
Getting rid of Vida/Rio/Evra wasn't the problem. Not sufficently replacing them, and expecting Jones/Smalling/Evans to stay fit all season, was.
We definitely need a leader at the back, I’ve no idea who’s going to step up though. Evans would be the obvious choice but he needs a run of 5 or 6 games to get into any type of form. If (and I know it’s a big if) we can get rid of the injuries I don’t think we should buy anybody in January, a solid back four would be better than any signing we could possibly get.
Evans isn't a leader in the slightest.
Who else is there?
Jones possibly? Although I think his leadership qualities are overstated because he's English and likes to throw himself about a lot. Rojo looks like he talks a lot during the games, but from all reports he barely speaks English.
So tbh, I don't think we have any real leaders at the back right now.
Just on MNF,part how Southampton defends,a lot of energy from every single player invested there to keep clean sheets.
Which to me is one of the biggest issues, never been more evident than during the Leicester game.
Guess he was just dropped for Carrick. We also had Herrera on the bench.
Playing for the under 21s tonight I believe.
Carrick looked a much better and reliable defender than either Smalling and Rojo
I agree with the OP - seeing Shaw's reliability makes you realise just how poor the other defenders have been.
I'd include Rafael in that list as well - we can't rely on him to be fit for long periods but he is still a defensive liability
in recent weeks he's been involved heavily in goals conceded against Chelsea, the second vrs West Brom, the stupid lunge in vrs Leicester off the top of my head - I was very pleasantly surprised that he managed to avoid a second yellow against Chelsea - maybe a sign of being more composed......as likeable as he is we could strengthen this position and he'd be an ideal back up player
I agree with the OP - seeing Shaw's reliability makes you realise just how poor the other defenders have been.
I'd include Rafael in that list as well - we can't rely on him to be fit for long periods but he is still a defensive liability
in recent weeks he's been involved heavily in goals conceded against Chelsea, the second vrs West Brom, the stupid lunge in vrs Leicester off the top of my head - I was very pleasantly surprised that he managed to avoid a second yellow against Chelsea - maybe a sign of being more composed......as likeable as he is we could strengthen this position and he'd be an ideal back up player
I think first things first we need an experienced CB in the January transfer window. We've fecked about with the right back for like 3/4 seasons now but we can wait til summer.
So many posters spent last season defending the team to high heaven in order to criticise Moyes even more. Truth is we needed an overhaul and it's not done yet.
So many posters spent last season defending the team to high heaven in order to criticise Moyes even more. Truth is we needed an overhaul and it's not done yet.
Quite a lot of posters realise that they all have enough talent or are good enough, if they would stay injury free. They don't though and that's reason enough to look for replacements. To answer your question, our team won't be able to build a solid relationship at the back, since they are or won't be available for a prolonged period of time, at least the past suggests as much. Van Gaal will be aware of their injury records and he probably decided to trust them to turn it around, since he was confident of his own capabilities as a coach, he probably was wrong and will react to that. With all of that being said, the unlikely might happen and they turn it around, but I don't believe it anymore. Ferguson put his trust in Rafael, Smalling, Jones and Evans, for quite some time I did too and still rate all of them highly, still any sympathy I had for them is completely gone this season. They could've have stepped up since Ferguson retired, but since then they actually look worse, bar Rafael who has improved again under van Gaal, I don't see any reason not to look at potential alternatives. Van Gaal also did Smalling and Jones a favour in not playing them at right-back anymore unlike his predecessors. Obviously the change of training regime might have caused injuries to them as well, but it's always them. In my opinion it's completely normal and justified that supporters are beginning or already have lost all their faith in them or one of them.
I agree that Vlaar isn't the solution and Vertonghen simply doesn't convince me. Unlike others I've actually liked Rojo's performances so far given the circumstances.
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3 ideally but might have to wait until the summer for the real quality players. Some mentioned are no different than what we already have.
Luckily Liverpool has even worse defensive problems then we do, and arsenal aren't great there either
Seamus can do the job.