'Der Klassiker' : Bayern München vs. Borussia Dortmund

[OutlawGER]

I had this thread in the newbies so i do it again.
I will use this thread everytime the two german giants are facing eachother, starting with this one:

DFB Pokalfinale
Berliner Olympiastadion
17.05.2014, 20:00​

So once again the german 'el clasico' tomorrow in Berlin for the 'DFB-Pokalfinale'.
The last time this two teams were facing eachother in the final of the german cup was in 2012 where Dortmund beat Bayern comfortably 5:2 in the last game from Shinji Kagawa for BVB before moving to Manchester United and with Robert Lewandowski scoring 3.

The last final however where this two met was the Champions League final 2013. Bayern could avenge their losses from 2012 and won the hard fought game 2:1 to finally become the trebble winner.

In this Bundesliga season Bayern beat Dortmund away 0:3 and Dortmund beat Bayern 0:3 away.

The odds of the bookmakers are speaking for Bayern, but almost every expert would tell you that they are wrong. Right now Dortmund seems to be the favorite. Since Bayern won the championship already in march (new record btw.), they drastically lost their form and started to underperform. Lowlights of course their losses to Dortmund (0:3) and Real Madrid (0:5 over two legs), but they also lost to a side like FC Augsburg. Dortmund on the other side has got a great form recently. They were struggling a lot of time in this season because of major longterm injuries (Kuba, Gündogan, Subotic, Schmelzer, Bender, Hummels, just to name a few) but they have become better and better over the weeks. Beating teams like Real Madrid and Bayern with players like Jojic, Kirch and Manuel Friedrich. Even though they are still missing very important players, they almost win every game at the moment and play like they used to.


Players missing
Bayern: Badstuber, Starke, Thiago
Dortmund: Blaszczykowski, Gündogan, Subotic

Not sure if they can play
Bayern: Ribery, Schweinsteiger, Shaqiri, Mandzukic
Dortmund: Bender


Players you should watch out for: Mario Götze, Marco Reus and Robert Lewandowski.

Mario Götze because he is a former BVB player.
Marco Reus because he is currently germanys best (offensive) player.
Robert Lewandowski because he is in his very last game for BVB after winning the german golden boot - before moving to Bayern. He is the one who could make Bayern feel so much pain and pressure and then he become one of them.


So what are your predictions for this game?




edit: also this game is very emotional most of times.

(Suarez anyone? )

 

[botond]

Imo Lewandowski wont play and if he does he will be rubbish . Götze also missed the final before joining Bayern .

 

[OutlawGER]

Imo Lewandowski wont play and if he does he will be rubbish . Götze also missed the final before joining Bayern .

Götze missed it because he got injured in the 2nd leg against Madrid. He even missed a few weeks or months from the next season (for Bayern).

 

[Devil may care]

Unfortunately this game doesn't seem to be airing on BT Sport or ESPN. I think Dortmund will win, they have been building momentum since the second leg of the CL quarter-final against Real Madrid and in Reus they have the on form difference maker.

 

[Invictus]

Predicting 3-1 for Dortmund and another tactical outmanoeuvre by Klopp. His men are riding the crest of a wave in terms of form going into this match. Their attacking play has been really impressive IMO and I'm backing them to compensate for Bayern's abject superiority in midfield. Bayern on the other hand have gone off the boil a bit and Dortmund can expose their defensive frailties just like Real did a couple of weeks ago. Even if Lewandowski doesn't start they have enough firepower between Reus, Aubameyang, Mkhitaryan and Hofmann. Especially looking forward to watching Jojic play. He's my new favourite in Dortmund.

 

[Sixpence]

I expect Guardiola will bottle this one as well. Dortmund 3-1 for me.

 

[Balu]

It's not a 'Klassiker'. What's wrong with German media and fans. We were once praised for our creative and intelligent writing (the country of poets and thinkers) and now we can't even come up with a name for a fecking football game (not that it needs a name anyway) and steal one from a foreign country and use it totally wrong. It's just sad. It's even worse than the 'Nord-Süd-Derby' bullshit for the Bayern-Hamburg games (it's either a derby or it's not, but there's no fecking derby between the two clubs farthest apart from each other in the country). It's a very modern rivalry, one that hasn't existed before the 90's at all. Don't fecking make it sound like it's a history defining one, it's not. It's so fecking sad .

Nice op otherwise

 

[OutlawGER]

It's not a 'Klassiker'. What's wrong with German media and fans. We were once praised for our creative and intelligent writing (the country of poets and thinkers) and now we can't even come up with a name for a fecking football game (not that it needs a name anyway) and steal one from a foreign country and use it totally wrong. It's just sad. It's even worse than the 'Nord-Süd-Derby' bullshit for the Bayern-Hamburg games (it's either a derby or it's not, but there's no fecking derby between the two clubs farthest apart from each other in the country). It's a very modern rivalry, one that hasn't existed before the 90's at all. Don't fecking make it sound like it's a history defining one, it's not. It's so fecking sad .

Nice op otherwise

Im born in 88 and started to watch football in the middle of the 90's. And the first rivalry i've ever witnessed was Bayern vs Dortmund with the likes of Andy Möller and Lothar Matthäus. So yes, of course, for ME it is a classic. Not to mention that these 2 are the best german teams for ages even though Dortmund had their financial problems.

 

[Balu]

Im born in 88 and started to watch football in the middle of the 90's. And the first rivalry i've ever witnessed was Bayern vs Dortmund with the likes of Andy Möller and Lothar Matthäus. So yes, of course, for ME it is a classic. Not to mention that these 2 are the best german teams for ages.

No one called it that two years ago. It's just an invention to sell the game, because the media thought it's a great idea to compare the rivalry between Bayern and Dortmund to the rivalry between Real and Barca in Spain. They copied a name that describes history because of modern events. It's embarrassing (and very very wrong), doesn't matter how old you are.

I really like your op though, don't take my rant against the German media personally

 

[NK86]

I love the words "Der Klassiker" or "El Classico". So much better than the boring "Manchester Derby"!

 

[peterstorey]

Pretentious bollox, see Balu above.

 

[Balu]

The only good thing about the shit name is that they don't sell it as a fight between 'Mia san mia' and 'Echte Liebe'. Those new club slogans are even more embarrassing.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

We were once praised for our creative and intelligent writing (the country of poets and thinkers)

Just the once?

What is Bayern's biggest rivalry?

It is just marketing isn't it. Your guys are learning from the EPL hyperbole model.

 

[Balu]

Just the once?

What is Bayern's biggest rivalry?

It is just marketing isn't it. Your guys are learning from the EPL hyperbole model.

Doesn't 'once' make sense in that sentence? I didn't mean to say 'just one time' but 'in the past' or 'formerly'.

Bayern doesn't have a long standing rivalry at the highest level. We have the local rivalry with 1860 in Munich, our biggest fan rivalry is probably with Nürnberg. Then we had the top level rivalry against Gladbach in the 70's, against Hamburg in the 80's and Dortmund in the mid to late 90's. The rivalry with Bremen was pretty big in the 90's and 00's as well, off the pitch way more intense than the one against Dortmund. The public fights between Lemke and Hoeness were epic. None of the big clubs in Germany managed to keep up with Bayern for more than a decade though, all fell apart for various reasons. None of them is comparable to the Barca - Real rivalry, which makes it so wrong to steal their name.

And yes, it's marketing, but it's so bad. They could at least be witty and funny with their slogans, but they don't even try

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

@Balu

It does make sense. I was just being facetious. The old Anglo - German rivalry etc.

It does seem a bit small time, lazy and unoriginal nicking the slogan, but I have to admit: it did pique my interest in the game. I can't catch it unfortunately.

 

[bucky]

The only good thing about the shit name is that they don't sell it as a fight between 'Mia san mia' and 'Echte Liebe'. Those new club slogans are even more embarrassing.

You are probably the first Bayern fan I've come across with that opinion and I share your opinion.

 

[Balu]

You are probably the first Bayern fan I've come across with that opinion and I share your opinion.

It's just as bad as Barca's 'Mes que un club' bullshit. Dortmund tops it all with 'Echte Liebe' though, that one is the worst, by far . Can't believe the fans are loving it, unbelievable.

 

[OutlawGER]

Doesn't 'once' make sense in that sentence? I didn't mean to say 'just one time' but 'in the past' or 'formerly'.

Bayern doesn't have a long standing rivalry at the highest level. We have the local rivalry with 1860 in Munich, our biggest fan rivalry is probably with Nürnberg. Then we had the top level rivalry against Gladbach in the 70's, against Hamburg in the 80's and Dortmund in the mid to late 90's. The rivalry with Bremen was pretty big in the 90's and 00's as well, off the pitch way more intense than the one against Dortmund. The public fights between Lemke and Hoeness were epic. None of the big clubs in Germany managed to keep up with Bayern for more than a decade though, all fell apart for various reasons. None of them is comparable to the Barca - Real rivalry, which makes it so wrong to steal their name.

And yes, it's marketing, but it's so bad. They could at least be witty and funny with their slogans, but they don't even try

And that is my point. If you look back the past 20 years, Dortmund is by far Bayern's biggest rival. Not only the past 4-5 years, but in the 90's aswell and probably in the future.


Btw. i decided on my own to call it 'Der Klassiker', more of a joke though but right now i think it fits because i honestly believe this matchup is one of the greatest in world football right now.

 

[Antisocial]

Unfortunately this game doesn't seem to be airing on BT Sport or ESPN.

I think it's live on BT Sport 2, 7 pm kick-off. Hope so anyway, I'm looking forward to it

 

[buckooo1978]

excellent.....

Athletico Vrs Barca at 5
Bayern Vrs Dortmund at 7

will get a few beers in for this

I predict 3-2 to Barca and 3-1 Bayern

have a sad feeling poor Athletico will end up woth nothing this season

 

[malappapper]

excellent.....

Athletico Vrs Barca at 5
Bayern Vrs Dortmund at 7

will get a few beers in for this

I predict 3-2 to Barca and 3-1 Bayern

have a sad feeling poor Athletico will end up woth nothing this season

Even so, I would expect the FA Cup final to generate the highest TV ratings around the globe (yet more proof that humanity is imbecilic)

I would also predict wins for Bayern and Barcelona. Even if Atletico end the season empty-handed they will still have made history. The Leverkusen analogy is idiotic for anyone with half a brain or more.

 

[Balu]

Even so, I would expect the FA Cup final to generate the highest TV ratings around the globe (yet more proof that humanity is imbecilic)

I would also predict wins for Bayern and Barcelona. Even if Atletico end the season empty-handed they will still have made history. The Leverkusen analogy is idiotic for anyone with half a brain or more.

They haven't made history if they don't finish the job. And what's wrong with the Leverkusen analogy? Leverkusen played an excellent season, punching way way above their weight, beating a team that won the CL in the previous season in the league and doing exceptionally well in the CL with innovative tactics. What's wrong is that Leverkusen's best season in the history of the club is defined as a bottle job when it was clearly an exceptional year full of outstanding performances, just like it will be wrong if Atletico's season is remembered as a bottle job in case they miss out on a trophy this year. But that's football.

 

[Balu]

Anyway, wrong thread for that discussion. It looks more and more like Schweinsteiger and Mandzukic won't be available for Bayern and Ribery will start on the bench. Pizarro looked great in recent weeks, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see the following line-up:

Robben Pizarro Müller
Kroos Götze
Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer
​

I would love that.

 

[NK86]

It's just as bad as Barca's 'Mes que un club' bullshit. Dortmund tops it all with 'Echte Liebe' though, that one is the worst, by far . Can't believe the fans are loving it, unbelievable.

Can you translate those slogans in English please?

 

[Ruht]

Can you translate those slogans in English please?

"Mia san mia" which is Bayern's slogan means "We are we", while "Echte Liebe" means "True love". If you were talking about Barca's one though, that one translates to "More than a club".

Anyway, wrong thread for that discussion. It looks more and more like Schweinsteiger and Mandzukic won't be available for Bayern and Ribery will start on the bench. Pizarro looked great in recent weeks, so I wouldn't be surprised if we see the following line-up:

Robben Pizarro Müller
Kroos Götze
Martinez
Alaba Dante Boateng Lahm
Neuer
​

I would love that.

Love that line-up. I would go with it as well, Pizarro has deserved a starting spot in my opinion, regardless of Mandzukic being fit or not. Seeing Javi in DM against Dortmund is a must as well. Sadly, I've got this odd feeling about this game. Just hope it's not a repeat of the 2012 final

 

[Balu]

Can you translate those slogans in English please?

Dortmund's slogan is 'True love'. Bayern's slogan is Bavarian and a bit difficult to translate, something like 'we are who we are' is probably the best translation, but it doesn't fully capture the meaning.

vs

 

[NoLogo]

It's just as bad as Barca's 'Mes que un club' bullshit. Dortmund tops it all with 'Echte Liebe' though, that one is the worst, by far . Can't believe the fans are loving it, unbelievable.

Because "Mia san mia" ("f.uck yo couch n.igga" loosely translated ) is such a creative slogan?

 

[Balu]

"Mia san mia" which is Bayern's slogan means "We are we", while "Echte Liebe" means "True love". If you were talking about Barca's one though, that one translates to "More than a club".

I needed a bit more time to find that embarrassing Dortmund shirt to visualise how bad it really is

 

[NK86]

Dortmund's slogan is 'True love'. Bayern's slogan is Bavarian and a bit difficult to translate, something like 'we are who we are' is probably the best translation, but it doesn't fully capture the meaning.

vs

True Love!

 

[NK86]

"Mia san mia" which is Bayern's slogan means "We are we", while "Echte Liebe" means "True love". If you were talking about Barca's one though, that one translates to "More than a club".



Love that line-up. I would go with it as well, Pizarro has deserved a starting spot in my opinion, regardless of Mandzukic being fit or not. Seeing Javi in DM against Dortmund is a must as well. Sadly, I've got this odd feeling about this game. Just hope it's not a repeat of the 2012 final

Thanks!

 

[Balu]

Because "Mia san mia" ("f.uck yo couch n.igga" loosely translated ) is such a creative slogan?

I said both are bad, but seriously, Dortmund's is worse, you can't deny that. Mia san mia isn't really new, the marketing campaign around the whole Bavarian theme we are pushing at the moment is way over the top and really annoying. Dortmund coming up with such a cheap phrase is on a different level though.

 

[malappapper]

They haven't made history if they don't finish the job. And what's wrong with the Leverkusen analogy? Leverkusen played an excellent season, punching way way above their weight, beating a team that won the CL in the previous season in the league and doing exceptionally well in the CL with innovative tactics. What's wrong is that Leverkusen's best season in the history of the club is defined as a bottle job when it was clearly an exceptional year full of outstanding performances, just like it will be wrong if Atletico's season is remembered as a bottle job in case they miss out on a trophy this year. But that's football.

Let me clarify what I meant. In 2002, the financial gap between the very rich clubs, and the second tier was nowhere near what it is today. If Leverkusen punched above their weight in 2002 (which they most certainly did) then Atletico Madrid have done the same, times ten! No matter what competition Leverkusen had to deal with in 2002, it was nowhere near what Atletico had to put up with this season. Back in 2002, Germany was ranked 4th in the UEFA rankings (Spain was then a comfortable 1st) while by 2014, Spain has amassed a simply astonishing all-time record for coefficient points approaching 98 (easily eclipsing EPL and BuLi) Or in other words, that had to outdo, the two richest, and most star-studded clubs in world football while at the same time going on an exceptional run in the Champions League. To put it in English terms, it's a bit like West Ham challenging for the title until the final day and reaching the CL final at the same time. Even if Atletico lose both titles in the coming days, theirs will be the greatest club season in football history.

 

[Balu]

Let me clarify what I meant. In 2002, the financial gap between the very rich clubs, and the second tier was nowhere near what it is today. If Leverkusen punched above their weight in 2002 (which they most certainly did) then Atletico Madrid have done the same, times ten! No matter what competition Leverkusen had to deal with in 2002, it was nowhere near what Atletico had to put up with this season. Back in 2002, Germany was ranked 4th in the UEFA rankings (Spain was then a comfortable 1st) while by 2014, Spain has amassed a simply astonishing all-time record for coefficient points approaching 98 (easily eclipsing EPL and BuLi) Or in other words, that had to outdo, the two richest, and most star-studded clubs in world football while at the same time going on an exceptional run in the Champions League. To put it in English terms, it's a bit like West Ham challenging for the title until the final day and reaching the CL final at the same time. Even if Atletico lose both titles in the coming days, theirs will be the greatest club season in football history.

Breaking it all down to the financial gap is wrong. Pretty sure, Atletico's wage bill is significantly higher than Dortmund's last season when they reached the CL final for example. Atletico is still the 3rd richest club in Spain and has a huge amount of quality Spanish talents available, that aren't available to English midtable clubs. It's not comparable to West Ham at all, that comparison ignores so many important factors, it's just wrong. But like I said before, wrong thread . I'm sure we'll have that discussion in the CL final thread and in La Liga thread and in many others.

 

[buckooo1978]

Even so, I would expect the FA Cup final to generate the highest TV ratings around the globe (yet more proof that humanity is imbecilic)

I would also predict wins for Bayern and Barcelona. Even if Atletico end the season empty-handed they will still have made history. The Leverkusen analogy is idiotic for anyone with half a brain or more.

history only remembers winners

 

[Ruht]

To put it in English terms, it's a bit like West Ham challenging for the title until the final day and reaching the CL final at the same time. Even if Atletico lose both titles in the coming days, theirs will be the greatest club season in football history.

Did you just compare Atletico Madrid with West Ham? Surely not. No need to go off-topic though, like Balu said, we are most probably going to have this discussion when the CL final comes around.

 

[Devil may care]

I think it's live on BT Sport 2, 7 pm kick-off. Hope so anyway, I'm looking forward to it

You're right! That's my early viewing sorted out.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Bayern's slogan is Bavarian and a bit difficult to translate, something like 'we are who we are' is probably the best translation, but it doesn't fully capture the meaning.

Does it connote to something unique and inclusive?

'I am what I am' in English to me always seems to be the defence of someone unrepentant for their malodorous ways.

 

[saivet]

Kroos' last game in a Bayern shirt

 

[malappapper]

Did you just compare Atletico Madrid with West Ham? Surely not. No need to go off-topic though, like Balu said, we are most probably going to have this discussion when the CL final comes around.

history only remembers winners

Breaking it all down to the financial gap is wrong. Pretty sure, Atletico's wage bill is significantly higher than Dortmund's last season when they reached the CL final for example. Atletico is still the 3rd richest club in Spain and has a huge amount of quality Spanish talents available, that aren't available to English midtable clubs. It's not comparable to West Ham at all, that comparison ignores so many important factors, it's just wrong. But like I said before, wrong thread . I'm sure we'll have that discussion in the CL final thread and in La Liga thread and in many others.

This discussion is indeed for another thread, so I will just limit myself to the following:

1. Atletico and West Ham are directly comparable in financial terms.

2. Lots of the Spanish talent has been bought by clubs from richer countries, especially England.

3. Atletico are much poorer than Dortmund. Dortmund had revenues of 196.7m euros in 11/12, while Atletico had only 107.9m euros in the same year. The next year the gap grew even bigger, Dortmund 256.2m, Atleti 120m. In fact, for most of the past few years, Ateti were outdone by Valencia, and sometimes even Sevilla in Spain. They are also very deep in debt. A look at the figures, also reveals that Atletico were only slightly ahead of Everton, Sunderland, Fulham and Aston Villa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League#2011.E2.80.9312

 

[Balu]

3. Atletico are much poorer than Dortmund. Dortmund had revenues of 196.7m euros in 11/12, while Atletico had only 107.9m euros in the same year. The next year the gap grew even bigger, Dortmund 256.2m, Atleti 120m. In fact, for most of the past few years, Ateti were outdone by Valencia, and sometimes even Sevilla in Spain. They are also very deep in debt. A look at the figures, also reveals that Atletico were only slightly ahead of Everton, Sunderland, Fulham and Aston Villa.

Revenue does't mean a lot if you want to compare the money spent on wages and the players available to them through different funding models like for example third-party ownerships. After all, Atletico are so deep in debt because they spent a lot on players and that's what's important if you want to compare their achievements. Neither Dortmund or West Ham could have signed a player like Falcao the way Atletico did. You're comparing apples and oranges and you're ignoring the circumstances in the different leagues. But that's really it about it here from me. If you want to discuss it further, take it to the La Liga thread