It's not a quality post because you take umbrage with his tone in the opening sentence? Or it's not a quality post for reasons you haven't made clear? Seems like you're deflecting a bit.
Do we extend Ole's contract?
- Thread starter PoTMS
- Start date
We've sort of snookered ourselves in this regard. Ole is a club legend so will get a contract out of courtesy, despite not really earning it (and probable payrise?) on merit. We should just extend his current by another year on the same terms. We've got a ways to go yet and the jury's still out. United have an ongoing issue with knowing how to deal with contracts and it's maddening.
The most broken of squads is such an exaggeration around here. The team had players like Pogba, Lukaku, Rashford, Martial, Lindelof, Shaw etc. who would probably would be or still are mainstays in the team, among our better players. Jose the previous season had the team second and since he's considered such a terrible manager, I highly doubt the team was as bad as people made out.
Also to answer your question - yes. Whilst Ole couldn't succeed in getting the trophy, Tuchel did, playing against far better opposition than we did. He got convincingly defeated by a very underwhelming Barca side, whilst Tuchel convincingly beat the best team in Spain and arguably the best team on the planet on current form. That's what winners do - they win. No manager is in perfect conditions, not many people in their professions are, but that's what good professionals do - they deliver. Which is why this nonsense that Ole needs a whole world class squad and a world class bench to get us winning trophies is the most ridiculous thing that gets spewed around here. What makes it even more ridiculous is the fact that 2 and a half years in we still play tumescent football. How about we address the things we can see rather than these hypothetical scenarios with us having an immaculate squad - like addressing the fact that he has gone almost a decade without winning a trophy, like the fact that he is terrible with his in game management despite being a manager since 2008 or some shite, the fact that teams like Brighton play better collective football than us etc.
It's nothing but excuse after excuse for Ole whilst everyone else around us is making the decisions that need to be made and are succeeding.
PS. More people would be much more inclined to give Ole time if the football we played wasn't as bad as it is. The pressing is an absolute joke, our passing is slow and predictable, our movement is basically non existent etc. Those aren't things that simply players are going to fix, those are collective issues - which is why some like myself, aren't so confident that purely buying more and more players is going to fix this. He will get next season anyway, so this whole thing is moot, but if the football doesn't improve and if we don't genuinely challenge, he needs to leave.
Well Lampard is probably Chelsea's one of best players in history and he was fecked off at the very instant. Similarly Pirlo at Juve. That's how clubs at the very top of the chain should behave. Tbh, we've always sacked our managers a bit late. Gave LvG too much time, gave Jose too much time and similar thing with Ole.
I love sentiment in football but I think it's fecking too much at United. The last hope I have is that we hire an external candidate as our CEO and he'd set things right, however I fully expect Richard Arnold to get the job and continue the shitshow.
Yes and no, they're are different competitions I think in the league you face weaker opponents that allow you to feck up and still get the result in a KO tournament you feck up and you're out. I do believe tactic plays a bigger part in KO tournaments. But I do get and share your point that progress is better graded in a league than in a KO tournament since luck has also his share in a KO tournament, not necessarily to win it I don't think you can win it on pure luck but I do think you can lose it on bad luck.
We rested our entire 11 twice, for the Leicester game and for the wolves game and we one against wolves, so at most we can say we threw away 3 points. Still the same can be said about City, once they knew the league was taken they lower their guns and pursued the UCL. They even lost against Brighton which I think we can agree if they needed the points it would had happen most likely.
Again it was just 2 games and 3 points dropped, it makes no difference really.
Like I said before I don't hold any particular value on 2nd place because we are not a solid second place, pretty much like last year the advantage is so slim that anything can happen.
Does that second place gives you some sort of certainty that we will be at least second next season? We know we're in the mix, it can go either way with Liverpool and Chelsea. Actually I think most people would hold us below them if having to bet at what place we'll finish next season. Nevermind City, we are light years away from them.
I totally agree is more likely to have a surprise in a KO tournament than in the league because of that "luck" factor I mentioned before. But still you have to be a top club to be within reach, when was the last time a non top team won the UCL? Since porto 2003. Right now we are not within reach of that luck factor.
Yes small margins, that would had been a shame to Chelsea and surely a bottle job to lose in that manner the last day but actually it would had been on Lampard who left the team in 9th place. I think it's been mentioned before but the "Tuchel table" has Chelsea as second just below City since his arrival. So it's not like he didn't deserved that top 4 place.
Regarding the UCL, yes they could have lost there's no shame in losing a UCL final you're against the very best. But even being there is a huge jump from what Chelsea was under Lampard, I mean they went from clueless and couldnt keep a clean sheet to save their lives to Tuchel dominating Madrid in both legs and drying up City on the final. With Pep's help of course since he screwed up big time with his tactics.
All I'm saying is I think we have that kind of potential, we just need a better manager a top of the notch manager that can explote all the talent in the squad.
People here talk about how we need 4-5 new players and 2 more seasons before we can actually challenge, well it's been proven with Chelsea that with a top coach with similar talent in the squad and just 5 months you can aspire to big titles. Which sadly it doesn't look likely at all under Ole.
Terrific post
Absolutely not. We need to put him out of his misery ASAP.
To be a great manager you either have to be a superb tactician or a gifted motivator, or both. Ole is neither. He will always look lost in the dugout because he truly is lost. He has no idea what he's doing.
To be a great manager you either have to be a superb tactician or a gifted motivator, or both. Ole is neither. He will always look lost in the dugout because he truly is lost. He has no idea what he's doing.
They spent over £200 mil last summer, plus signed kovacic in that ban anyway.
Not much of a ban really.
Well said.
Unfortunately a lot of supporter's don't see this.
Ole is just a fan watching from the stands.
If he was a superb tactician, then he would've changed something during the Europa League Final; but he didn't and just slumped in his chair looking absolutely lost.
If he was a gifted motivator, then he wouldn't have said after the Final defeat:
"We didn't turn up"
Also, is there any other manager of a high profile club that would say:
"Trophies are for ego's"
Separate Ole the player, from Ole the manager, and you are left with a guy who is well and truly out of his depth, and should not be anywhere near Manchester United.
While Ole has his faults, the bigger question is who would take over for him? How many elite quality managers are out there available and would match the legacy of the club?
Poch (who hasn't won anything either)
Zidane (who'd leave us for RM the first moment he can)
Conte (who might not get along with the owners of he doesn't get players he wants).
We know Pep, and Jurgen will probably never coach our club because of their ties to there current club.
Simeone (if you didn't like Mourinho's defensive style I doubt you'll like his and probably not available since he just won la Liga)
Before we go ahead and fire Ole, the biggest question is who would take this team to the next step
Poch (who hasn't won anything either)
Zidane (who'd leave us for RM the first moment he can)
Conte (who might not get along with the owners of he doesn't get players he wants).
We know Pep, and Jurgen will probably never coach our club because of their ties to there current club.
Simeone (if you didn't like Mourinho's defensive style I doubt you'll like his and probably not available since he just won la Liga)
Before we go ahead and fire Ole, the biggest question is who would take this team to the next step
Do you need explaining how a transfer ban works legally or are you deliberately spouting shite to make some sort of point?
Ooh another one.
Full member, 10,000+ posts.
Aggressive arrogant attitude to everybody who disagrees.
Probably blames the state of the forum on newbies.
Probable virgin.
If only I could be as high and mighty as you are Mr Tart.
Please could you teach me? Please.
I'm desperate to be a self important internet tough guy.
I hope that one day I can I can reach of the levels of forum badassery that you have achieved, it must be difficult carrying the weight of such success day to day, even for your mighty shoulders.
I salute you, my king, my god.
Very good point, but I wouldn't totally agree that he isn't a good motivator, some players seem to pick their best under him and we have won pretty decent numbers of games coming from behind so it has to be something with his man-management and motivation skills. As for tactics, I agree, he should be better, especially with his in-game management.
I would offer a 1 year rolling deal and nothing more. Sir Alex had that no less.
I just don’t feel it with him even I’d love it too. I feel like a Top 4 league finish and getting to a final of an FA Cup/League Cup/Europa League but not winning it is the ceiling with him. He’s possibly overachieved in his time here and has done some good things but it feels like he’s laying down the railroad tracks for the next guy to run the train over.
OGS has been in management the same time as Guardiola has been around pretty much so I find it baffling that people say he’s an amateur or needs more time at this high level. It should tell you something that the only two teams who gave him a role in that time were Molde then Cardiff City and then back to Molde. Hardly sounds like the early foundations of a great manager.
How come no decent club has offered him a role somewhere? Or maybe more interestingly how come he’s never pushed himself to put himself out there to pursue a managerial career? Was he just waiting for United to come along one day? (which is like me waiting for Scarlett Johansson to ask me out for a date).
Again I would love nothing more than him to be the one but I sadly don't see it happening and it’s an opinion thats certainly shared.
I just don’t feel it with him even I’d love it too. I feel like a Top 4 league finish and getting to a final of an FA Cup/League Cup/Europa League but not winning it is the ceiling with him. He’s possibly overachieved in his time here and has done some good things but it feels like he’s laying down the railroad tracks for the next guy to run the train over.
OGS has been in management the same time as Guardiola has been around pretty much so I find it baffling that people say he’s an amateur or needs more time at this high level. It should tell you something that the only two teams who gave him a role in that time were Molde then Cardiff City and then back to Molde. Hardly sounds like the early foundations of a great manager.
How come no decent club has offered him a role somewhere? Or maybe more interestingly how come he’s never pushed himself to put himself out there to pursue a managerial career? Was he just waiting for United to come along one day? (which is like me waiting for Scarlett Johansson to ask me out for a date).
Again I would love nothing more than him to be the one but I sadly don't see it happening and it’s an opinion thats certainly shared.
Firstly, Ole is building a young team that is attack-minded and borrows from the principles of Klopp particularly. He wants to play a proactive, high impact and high energy pressing football. He wants us to build up our play out from the back, with a mobile double pivot who have the energy to go box to box, or a single pivot in the smaller games, wth a fluid attack further up the field who can score a variety of different types of goals.
Clubs like Chelsea, Bayern and Madrid can chop and change their managers because they actually have owners and a sporting department who are actually in it for the glory and success of the team. We have neither (this really shouldn't be up for debate and I'm surprised it's taken you in considering your anti-Glazer stance). We don't even want to spend the miniscule amounts required to make our women's team good FFS.
The asinine arguments over progress is hilarious to me. If you can't see it then that's a you problem. Since Ole has come in, he's been comfortably the best of the rest behind Pep and Klopp, from a situation where we were close to being cut adrift when he joined. That is progress. The underlying numbers also back up this progress. Has it been perfect? Absolutely not, but the circumstances he's in haven't been perfect either. He handled a pandemic a damn sight better than Klopp did. He also didn't have the transfer window that Lampard did, and the only first team starter he did sign last year was on deadline day a month after the season began and who couldn't even get on the pitch until a couple of weeks after that. He needs to do more, but also, the club needs to do more for him. Last summer's transfer window had all the potential hallmarks of the 2018 one where Jose melted down and we capitulated into midtable by December, but it didn't because Ole actually handled that period expertly and took the bumps. Considering also that he has built this squad up and regenerated it off the scraps and leftovers left behind by Jose (the only bonafide starter that both Jose and Ole have in common now is Lindelof, and up until this season you could have added DDG - that's it. Just two out of 11 who both Jose and Ole wanted to play regularly) and that he's only made 4 first team signings in the two years he's had, I think he's done enough to deserve that new contract, irrespective of what you feel someone else could have done.
The players he's signed have predominantly been long-term in nature, so to say that they've been a mixed bag is short-termist and a bit obtuse to say the least. James wasn't signed as anything but squad cover. Telles did what he was supposed to do and that was to drive up the standards of Shaw. VdB is a longer term signing who was bought to replace Pogba in the event he left (which seemed to be very much on the cards at the time), but that is now looking unlikely, so we'll see what happens there. He needs to improve in his trust of the squad but likewise the squad have to earn that trust. People like you seem to ignore that Ole was actually being criticised for using his squad too much earlier this season just gone, and was told he was unnecessarily tinkering with the lineup and formations (e.g. after the Leipzig game in particular). He got the balance right on that front after that game but then the Sheffield United home game happened (where Telles, Matic, and Axel all started) and the squad players but particularly those guys, lost their trust. The villareal game was a one off where he played all his best players at the same time. Usually greenwood would have been on the bench and likely would have come on if the game situation demanded a change but the likes of Amad are too young to be thrust into a situation where penalties could potentially occur, and VdB would have been as useful as a marzipan dildo in such a situation as he doesn't provide the cutting edge. Mata, as we all know, doesn't have it in him anymore. And who else was there, Matic? Nuff sed.
So, like I said, for every argument you've raised, there's a counter. I'll repeat, Ole isn't and hasn't been perfect, but the circumstances he's in haven't been perfect either but better managers than Ole have struggled this past season, yet he's one of the very few who has kept his club in a decent position almost all the way through the season. I understand the disappointment over the EL final. I was too, and if I'm honest, that game was the lowest I've felt as a Utd fan during Ole's tenure. But that's the thing about football, it has the potential to create situations like Wednesday. Steaua Bucharest beat Barca in the European Cup final in the 80s, relegation-doomed Wigan beat City in the FA Cup final more recently, and even more recently than that, they beat Pep's City side in Cup when they were in the championship/league 1.
At the end of the day, one bad day or bad game does not negate the real progress that's been made and with the age profile of this squad that Ole is building, it's only trending upwards rather than down. Add in a few first teamers in the 3-4 big holes that are in the squad, as well as fortifying it further with the very promising kids that are coming through, and you'll see a proper Utd team emerge, I'm sure of that.
All in all, Ole will still be here next season and probably will get a new contract, and deservedly so. No amount of flagellation, entitled whining or complaints will change that, so why don't you just get behind the team? If your dislike of the manager is so strong, then perhaps it might be best for you to find another hobby? Cos football and Utd obviously don't seem to be doing it for you...
Nice post, fully agree.
Top post.
We have still spent more than them over the last two transfer windows so I don't see what all the fuss is a about.
No question about it, get that man a new contract
Don't agree with your first bit. He's not a serial loser. The rest I do agree with.
At Molde.
Instant classic post
I'm sure there's some award category where it should be the next winner
I’m gonna go with meltdown of the year.Instant classic post
I'm sure there's some award category where it should be the next winner
I'll link to it in the nominations thread.
Meh, whatever gets yer rocks off lad.
Actually I think all of them would keep him based on the initial position when he took over, the extent of changes he had to implement and where we are right now. Maybe Chelsea wouldn't but I reckon Lampard would have also kept his job if he had been comfortably top 4 at the time of his dismissal. We are actually in a position where you can realistically expect us to hang around top 2-4 for the next couple of years which we were not in at any point post-Fergie.
Very good post. Thank you.
I don't think we should reward failure. The Europa League final was a failure and more importantly really highlighted some of Ole's weaknesses. The League position, while good, is also inflated because of Liverpool's injuries and Chelsea's first half of the season and didn't actually mean we were in the title race. Next season we'll see how we compare with them, hand out a contract then if we're still genuinely in the title race after Christmas and got through the Champions League group stage.
The club has rewarded failure and mediocrity for too long now. Let Ole sweat a little he won't go anywhere, if we're actual title contenders around half-way then throw a new contract at him.
The club has rewarded failure and mediocrity for too long now. Let Ole sweat a little he won't go anywhere, if we're actual title contenders around half-way then throw a new contract at him.
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Might as well add the entire thread.
Christ.
As for the contract, won't hurt to wait until December or January to make a decision. If we are still around top of the table then and progressed in Europe, he should get one year extension. If not, wait until end of season.
No! Sack him now, we can't afford to wait, there's no time to lose.
Appoint poch tomorrow then sack him when we don't win the league in September.
Then appoint Conte.....
Am I doing this right?
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Was a decent post. One I disagree with but still well thought out. Until the last bit. Pointing out an opinion you have about a manager shouldnt be automatically labbeled as flaggelation or entitled whining (that's my favourite). There are more than enough reasons to doubt Ole. Our lack of cutting edge when teams sit deep, our embarrassing set piece defending we can't seem to get under control, our mindset in the really important games, his in-game management and quite a few more. I had my doubts when we first signed him and nothing has really changed. We can look decent but in the next moment we look capable of losing against pretty much any dross. It makes our games pretty exciting but it's not something that will win us major trophies I fear.
Also telling others to find a different hobby makes you the one that's entitled not the other way round. Which is a shame as I thought the rest of your post was pretty decent.
That's the kind of poster he is, unfortunately. He tends to go off on these self indulged rants - that obviously sound far more intelligent in his head. Then he always lets out his hate filled bile, that he tries his best to contain. The last paragraph is a much better indicator of the type of poster he is. Totally obsessed with Ole beyond any reason, and he has no desire to have a constructive debate.
*pretends again to be shocked by his post*
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Seems fair
I wouldn't be adverse to him getting a new contract now as it'll make little difference, in all honesty. But what you have said makes the most sense.
Yeah it's not like you can't fire coaches when they are under contract. Chelsea must have about 5 of them on their payroll now anyway. However waiting a bit more would I think will basically send the message 'we are okay with you but we are expecting the progress to continue for you to get a new deal'. We do not really have a reason to sack him now, but we may also not have full reason to ensure him that we will want him to stick around long term.
My point is that they were supplied the players in the positions they needed.
Ole was given a couple of youthteamers, a striker seemingly on his last legs (albeit he turned out ok) and a random midfielder he didn't need.
Tuchel hasn't had to do anything other than turn up and add some confidence and change the starting lineup an little.
Don't get me wrong, he's done well to win the cl but it's not like he had a tough run is it, I mean that real Madrid side is so bad that Zidane can't be arsed with it.