Two good performances. Encouraging start.
Does anyone else think we might not buy a midfielder this summer.....
- Thread starter Transfer United Till I Die
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
Two good performances. Encouraging start.
One good performance, one good 35 minutes.
Have you ever criticized anything Utd related cnut? Just curious.
Not as often as you.
So, never?
How did you come to that conclusion?
If I called you a jew and fag hating moron, would you bother denying it?
I do.
Cleverly looks very promising and will no doubt do well this year. But so far he's had a game and a half, the second of which he was good but no more. He needs chance to develop but appears to have all the right attributes.
Anderson will need do do more than have a couple of decent games to convince me I'm afraid. A full season without injury and fitness issues would suffice.
does anyone see Young taking a more central role with Valencia coming back and Nani reverting to the left?
Isn't that the other way around? I expect Cleverley to provide creativity and Anderson to provide energy. At least I very much hope he's not encouraged to be too creative; those Hollywood passes ending up in row Z are quite frustrating. He should stick to the simple stuff.
Both have a lot of qualities but I don't see either of them as "creative" players.
When Rooney was getting the ball less and less against West Brom our lack of creativity was showing. Their main job should be getting the ball to him.
When Rooney was getting the ball less and less against West Brom our lack of creativity was showing. Their main job should be getting the ball to him.
I wish we had midfielders* capable of more than just getting the ball to Rooney or knocking it out wide at the first opportunity.
*well, apart from Ryan Giggs but he's 38.
*well, apart from Ryan Giggs but he's 38.
Well Cleverley looks like a very good dribbler and his link up play, one-twos and such are good, but he doesn't have a final pass in him. I definitely don't think Anderson is the creative player we all thought he was when he bought him.
Thing is though, our attack has Rooney, Berb, Nani, Young, all capable of moments of magic so I don't think there's a shortage of creativity within the team. We were top scorers last year after all.
It's a ball winner, great at dictating tempo, holding up the ball, and picking the right passes at the right time. Prime examples being Busquets and Schweinstiger, but they're a rare talent of course.
Thing is though, our attack has Rooney, Berb, Nani, Young, all capable of moments of magic so I don't think there's a shortage of creativity within the team. We were top scorers last year after all.
It's a ball winner, great at dictating tempo, holding up the ball, and picking the right passes at the right time. Prime examples being Busquets and Schweinstiger, but they're a rare talent of course.
Beggars belief that a United fan could think that this is all that Anderson offers when he's in possession.
It's none too clever to think that it's all Carrick and Fletcher are capable of, come to think of it.
Anderson has the ability to be extremely creative. Some of passing at home last season was fantastic. Hes done really well so far this season keeping it simpler but he would be devastating if he could find the right balance.
I keep hearing that Anderson has it in him to be creative but I'm sorry, I just can't see it. His strength is shielding the ball, running with the ball, doing the simple, one-touch passes well and that's it. He might have made one or two real defence-splitting passes in the past but then again, John O'Shea had once nutmegged Luis Figo.
It's about regular contributions. Yeah, Carrick's ball over the top to Nani in the FA Cup against Arsenal in 2008 was fantastic, as his first-time pass releasing Berbatov a year later in the same competition. But his main strength, when in possession, is also to keep it simple, to give it to the better, more creative players. Same with Fletcher.
I think he will find the balance as long as he is consistent with the simpler things.
I am really curious as to what makes a CM creative and another, like Anderson, not?
Anderson plays in the attacking third, he helps move the ball around, he plays incisive passes, he dribbles with the ball driving at defenders, causing defenses to collapse and thus open up space for others (create space).
Part of creating for Man Utd is being able to find our wingers and our deeper lying striker in space so they can do what they do best. Playing the ball at the right time in those situations means seeing ahead - that if they deliver the ball to Rooney or whomever in a certain position, he'll be able to do something with it. It's not like they just dump the ball straight away to the next person up the pitch. It's about holding on to the ball, moving it around so that defenses open up so the players further up the pitch can then attack. So far Cleverley and Anderson have shown very good signs of this.
Anderson plays in the attacking third, he helps move the ball around, he plays incisive passes, he dribbles with the ball driving at defenders, causing defenses to collapse and thus open up space for others (create space).
Part of creating for Man Utd is being able to find our wingers and our deeper lying striker in space so they can do what they do best. Playing the ball at the right time in those situations means seeing ahead - that if they deliver the ball to Rooney or whomever in a certain position, he'll be able to do something with it. It's not like they just dump the ball straight away to the next person up the pitch. It's about holding on to the ball, moving it around so that defenses open up so the players further up the pitch can then attack. So far Cleverley and Anderson have shown very good signs of this.
One or two in the past? You really need to pay more attention next time Anderson plays.
Neither of them are as creative as a Giggs or Scholes but they're both capable of unlocking a defence. Besides, Carrick's main strength isn't splitting defences, it's playing fast accurate passes forwards into the feet of whichever striker is dropping deep. He does this better than almost any other midfielder in the league.
As Martin Jol once said:
Anderson does not really play incisive passes, you rarely see him finding an angle that you wouldn't have expected him to find, his long-range passing is quite poor in the sense that he gets it wrong more often than not, the weighing of his passes is very erratic. That's why he's not creative.
I repeat, he's good at short one-touch passing and running with the ball. Useful assets, no doubt, but he's not a creator, he's a facilitator.
I repeat, he's good at short one-touch passing and running with the ball. Useful assets, no doubt, but he's not a creator, he's a facilitator.
You can repeat it all you want. Back in the real world, the rest of us are watching Anderson deliver at least one absolutely top class incisive pass in almost every game he plays. His final ball isn't as as consistent as the really top attacking midfielders but anyone with a pair of eyes can see he's got it in his locker.
We'll have to agree to disagree on Anderson then.
Yep, and I wish we had a midfielder whose biggest strength isn't that. One who can relieve some of the creative burden on Rooney and make us less predictable. The second goal against Manchester City was very encouraging but at the Hawthorns most of our attacking play consisted of 1) getting it to Rooney, 2) getting it out wide and putting the early cross in. We created little and two moments of individual brilliance won us the game.
I hope we'll see a bit more of the type of football we were treated to when Giggs was playing CM last season. But that requires a player like Giggs and we only have Giggs. And he's 38, as I may have mentioned before.
Seeing as you seem to think repeating yourself strengthens your argument, I'll join in. We don't only have Giggs. All of our central midfielders are capable of unlocking a defence, especially Anderson.
I for one are very happy about the potential and development of our new midfield pair Anderson and Cleverley.
Yes, all of them are capable. Even Ferdinand is capable of doing that. Just as O'Shea is capable of a nutmeg, Berbatov is capable of outpacing an opponent and Owen is capable of not being injured. It just happens rarely.
The point is that they are not the type of players who do it regularly enough; creativity isn't the main strength of any of our central midfielders, maybe Giggs apart. Occasionally they can deliver on that front but their real strength lies elsewhere.
How can I make it more clear? Try an example: Patrice Evra is capable of producing a good finish but I wouldn't stick him up front. Obviously this is an exaggeration but I have to try and get my point across somehow.
Why not try coming up with a comparison that's not totally ridiculous and far fetched, such as the O'Shea nutmeg or Evra's finishing?
I tried but those evidently did not get to Pogue. Carrick is capable of being creative but he rarely is. Same with Fletcher and Anderson. Therefore they cannot be classed as creative midfielders, the same way Evra can't be classed as a winger even though he is capable of doing a job there. Our midfielders usually do nothing more than get the ball quickly to Rooney or to the wide men. I wish we had a midfielder, apart from Ryan Giggs, who is capable of supplying more creativity than that, ON A REGULAR BASIS. And no, the existing ones are NOT capable of that.
I don't know why it's such an outrageous claim. But I should have known that criticising any aspect of the team is a heinous crime on these boards.
I've got this strange feeling today that we are in the process of buying a young midfielder. Somebody like Shaqiri from Basel.
Reminds me of the hype surrounding our midfield after the Schalke games, till Barcelona came along and demolished such false assumptions
He's a winger, surely we won't get another one of those.
Not really. But you should expect to be called up on it when you come out with ludicrously exaggerated criticisms about Giggs being the only midfielder who can do anything other than punt the ball out to the wing or imply that Anderson is no better at splitting a defence than Evra is at finishing.
I know you like to think of yourself as so much more objective than the rest of us sheep but over the top criticism like that just comes across as a bit silly.
He plays the obvious ball if someone makes a good run, he isn't much of a creative passer at all.
And I have clarified my point a million times since the initial post yet you insisted on thinly veiled insults (like the "back in the real world" post) instead of actually reacting to them. Hence resulting to exaggerated comparisons, like the Evra one.
And it was way over the top to suggest Anderson does at least one brilliant incisive pass in almost every game. That's just not true, and you know it.
Don't understand this. If someone doesn't make a good run and you play a through ball aren't you just surrendering possession? The logic of what you have said is that Xavi is not a creative passer because he averages hundreds of passes every game and only a handful of them are through balls and very few of them travel more than 10-15 yards. As an Arsenal fan I expected a more informed comment as it isn't the habit of the Gooners to play hollywood balls to nobody but to hold possession and bring teammates into play until a clear opening can be found.
That is what United have been trying to do in the last couple of games, the most beautiful example being the equalizing goal in the Shield. People saying Anderson and Cleverley don't play defence splitting passes have extremely short memories. Anyone remember the no look pass to Berba for the 2-0 vs Sunderland last Christmas?
Both Cleverley and Ando have great stats for the first two games (I've got the footy zone Opta stats app on my Iphone) in terms of pass completion and that is reflected in the triangles and interchanges United have been able to pull off when they've been on top. I'm sure when Chicharito returns and gives them the option for a more direct form of pass they will do so after all didn't Cleverley set up Owen that way against Barca preseason, Welbeck that way vs Marseille pre season? But without the right option available why would they attempt it? If people wanna see that they can always watch Adam and Henderson spray passes off the park at Anfield.
Now that's a good post
It's blatantly true. And it's only "almost every game" because he's always been inconsistent and when he's having one of his shit days, he can't play simple passes, never mind penetrative ones.
When he's on form, though, he regularly bisects the defence. Which was evident at the back end of last season. At home, anyway. I honestly don't understand how anyone can have followed his United career and somehow missed this.
It's pretty simple, Anderson lacks imagination - he plays the percentage ball to a runner. Xavi is the exact opposite full of subtle angles and weighted balls (half the time Anderson blasts the skin off the ball and of course 'completes' the pass whether or not the poor bastard on the end of it can do anything useful with it).
What were Scholes' stats like for assists? I don't think even he was a directly creative player like Xavi. Most of our creativity comes from the wings and where Scholes was in feeding them. Our current midfielders don't have the passing range to feed in the same way that Scholes did, but they can do it in a different, but equally effective way.
Fergie made this point himself. You just can't replace Scholes like for like, but you can find alternative ways of doing it, which I think we will do with our up and coming players, which includes Cleverley and Anderson.
Fergie made this point himself. You just can't replace Scholes like for like, but you can find alternative ways of doing it, which I think we will do with our up and coming players, which includes Cleverley and Anderson.
So a creative CM is a player that only tries to play defense splitting passes? Head scratcher that one.
Anderson doesn't only make passes when someone else makes a run, he often attempts to lead players into things by making the hollywood pass, one of sticks people beat him with. It's often been the case that he tries to make something happen but, the weight of his passes have not been that consistent in the past that he would get moaned at.
Creative CM isn't just a person that plays the final ball that opens up a defense but, a person that orchestrates play in a way that leads to more meaningful attacks. That often means just playing the ball back and forth and keeping possession and then sometimes either play a defense splitting pass but, more often playing in some of the more forward players like a winger or a deep lying striker. The CM is still the crux of creating the move at the right time.
Anderson doesn't only make passes when someone else makes a run, he often attempts to lead players into things by making the hollywood pass, one of sticks people beat him with. It's often been the case that he tries to make something happen but, the weight of his passes have not been that consistent in the past that he would get moaned at.
Creative CM isn't just a person that plays the final ball that opens up a defense but, a person that orchestrates play in a way that leads to more meaningful attacks. That often means just playing the ball back and forth and keeping possession and then sometimes either play a defense splitting pass but, more often playing in some of the more forward players like a winger or a deep lying striker. The CM is still the crux of creating the move at the right time.
