Figo wasn't that good on the left though.
Dominoes draft: QF - Enigma_87 vs Lord SInister
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
Agree, but he was not too many notches below. Besides, there is already enough magic in the team for Enigma.
After a point, its about better fits, especially when your opposition is the one it is.
And the swapped flanks one personally for me would have been a game changer considering the right heavy attack of LS and Figo against Ziege in a 5-3-2.
So if this version is a center forward version, will he get deeper as a flase 9 trying to influence the game, and getting in the way of Zico, unless you are having Zico playing a different role, althogh Zico is known to play the below role in both Flamengo and Brazil(1982). Zico also prefers to be the only one chief at the heart of the team.@Lord SInister
The CF version of AdS is before both Didi and Puskas came to the team. After Puskas came AdS was the one man spine to the team and the version I've used in the previous game
1981 Flamengo by André Rocha. Notice how the traditional tactical base (with small variations) is still there: : volante (Andrade), meia-armador (Adílio), ponta de lança (Zico), ponta-direita (Tita), centroavante (Nunes) and ponta-esquerda (Lico).
Brazil 1982
And if you are saying that Stefano will not get in way of Zico, will not drop deeper, than there is not going to be the midfield overwhelming/false9 tactics that some think you are going to have.
that is one of the strategy, in case if the other one does not work.
One of the instructions Messi has is to get behind the lines of CBs and DMs/CM or edge of the DMs, and not far deep in the midfield. From where a well weighted ball from Maradona and cos, will prove to be devastating.
Kudos @Lord SInister .
Great improvements in not only the lineup tactically, but in the discussions as well. Really liked some of the posts in the thread.
Great improvements in not only the lineup tactically, but in the discussions as well. Really liked some of the posts in the thread.
thanks. It is shame we had to meet so early. same with @Enigma_87 . three of us had possibly the best teams, but all got drawn within the first two rounds.
Looks like choreographed dance.
@Enigma_87
Thanks for the detailed Messi response re-Argentina. Two questions come to mind however - was he any better for Argentina as a false 9 and is the lack of an AM behind him at Argentina mainly due to the lack of a quality one rather than it would stifle him? 433 is ingrained on Barca so would require a serious rework to fit both in which of course is unlikely. That is unless you equate Maradona with Ibra but this system allows Messi much more centrally.
I'm really on the fence at the mo so just trying to nail down how well Maradona and Messi will work. My intuition says yes but you've made some good points why it might not.
Thanks for the detailed Messi response re-Argentina. Two questions come to mind however - was he any better for Argentina as a false 9 and is the lack of an AM behind him at Argentina mainly due to the lack of a quality one rather than it would stifle him? 433 is ingrained on Barca so would require a serious rework to fit both in which of course is unlikely. That is unless you equate Maradona with Ibra but this system allows Messi much more centrally.
I'm really on the fence at the mo so just trying to nail down how well Maradona and Messi will work. My intuition says yes but you've made some good points why it might not.
Also read: http://www.football-oranje.com/eric-gerets/
Gerets played for Rekem, Standard de Liège, AC Milan, MVV Maastricht and PSV Eindhoven, winning among others the 1987-88 European Cup, two Belgian championships and six Dutch championships. Although he was a defender, he was well known for a particular attacking skill: long distance throw-ins. He is the second most capped player for the Belgium national football team, with 86 appearances and 2 goals. In the First Round game in Italia 90 against Uruguay, which Belgium won 3-1, Gerets was sent off.
Eric Gerets is considered one of the greatest players in Belgian football. Known for his days leading PSV Eindhoven, Gerets was a thinking man at the back and as a defender was an incredible asset to that incredible Dutch side of the late 80's and the Belgian side that was among one of the most soild team in all of Europe during that decade.
Gerets was born in Rekem, Belgium on May 18, 1954. His career saw him establish himself as one of the young up and coming stars at local side Rekem. He would eventually go on to become the stalwart on the right side of the Standard Liége defense for 12 seasons. He quickly he became a regular fixture on the Belgian national team. That team came to international prominence as a tough marking team with great speed. This generation of Belgians began grabbing headlines in the 1980 EuroCup where they would reach the finals but lose to West Germany. His form was so impressive that coach Guy Thys had him on three World Cup rosters. He would eventually become the second most capped player in Belgian national team history with 86 caps.
International career
Belgian success early in the '80s placed them in the upper echelon of national teams during this decade and they were constantly dangerous regardless of the tournament they were in. Belgium were protagonists in the 1982 and 1986 World Cups. They were among one of the most compact teams giving opponents fits. The prime example was the opening match of the 1982 World Cup where they would neutralize then-defending champion Argentina who came to Spain with 1979 under-20 star Diego Maradona. Belgium would defeat Argentina at the Nou Camp 1-0 courtesy of a goal by Erwin Vandenbergh. Gerets was the defensive anchor of those teams which had players the likes of Jean-Marie Pfaff, Franky Vercauteren, Jan Ceulemans, and Marc Degryse. Eventually players like Enzo Scifo, Georges Grün, and Frankie van der Elst would come to the fray in time for the 1986 World Cup.
That team would peak in 1986 as they would defeat a powerful Russian side in the quarterfinals. They would lose to an inspired Diego Maradona as the Argentines as this was a sese of retribution from four years earlier. Despite the loss, Belgium would end up in fourth place - their best finish ever in World Cup competition.
1990 would not turn out to be as glorious a tournament for the Gerets and Belgian side who was starting to look to newer players at this point. They would move through the group stage fair easy as they won the first two matches in Group E and would come out in second place.
They would face England in the knockout stages and play an epic match that would see David Platt become the hero in extra time with one of the best goals of that tournament right before penalties. This match would propel England to their best finish in the World Cup since winning it all in 1966. For Gerets and a most of the players from that 1980 team that would mark the end of an era and the torch would be passed on to the players like Marc Wilmots.
Belgian success early in the '80s placed them in the upper echelon of national teams during this decade and they were constantly dangerous regardless of the tournament they were in. Belgium were protagonists in the 1982 and 1986 World Cups. They were among one of the most compact teams giving opponents fits. The prime example was the opening match of the 1982 World Cup where they would neutralize then-defending champion Argentina who came to Spain with 1979 under-20 star Diego Maradona. Belgium would defeat Argentina at the Nou Camp 1-0 courtesy of a goal by Erwin Vandenbergh. Gerets was the defensive anchor of those teams which had players the likes of Jean-Marie Pfaff, Franky Vercauteren, Jan Ceulemans, and Marc Degryse. Eventually players like Enzo Scifo, Georges Grün, and Frankie van der Elst would come to the fray in time for the 1986 World Cup.
That team would peak in 1986 as they would defeat a powerful Russian side in the quarterfinals. They would lose to an inspired Diego Maradona as the Argentines as this was a sese of retribution from four years earlier. Despite the loss, Belgium would end up in fourth place - their best finish ever in World Cup competition.
1990 would not turn out to be as glorious a tournament for the Gerets and Belgian side who was starting to look to newer players at this point. They would move through the group stage fair easy as they won the first two matches in Group E and would come out in second place.
They would face England in the knockout stages and play an epic match that would see David Platt become the hero in extra time with one of the best goals of that tournament right before penalties. This match would propel England to their best finish in the World Cup since winning it all in 1966. For Gerets and a most of the players from that 1980 team that would mark the end of an era and the torch would be passed on to the players like Marc Wilmots.
Club career
His success at the World Cup and with Standard Liége saw Italian giants AC Milan come knocking. Like any other great player, he left for Italy but would only last a season at San Siro. Two years later he would find his way to PSV and he would eventually come to the team that would see him become the premier right back in the world. PSV was a juggernaut domestically and with his veteran experience Gerets gave the insurance in the back so that coach Jan Reker would need. So good was his level of play at PSV, that by his third season he would become team captain- replacing Ruud Gullit. Gullit's departure and the arrival of De Graafschap legend Guus Hiddink to the Boeren bench.
The team would not miss a beat with the young coach Hiddink as they won a second consecutive league. In 1988 PSV would win a third title; but more importantly they would also win the European Cup. Hiddink's team would become the only team to not win its last five matches of the tournament. The team was loaded with talent from the back to front as players like Hans van Breukelen, Ronald Koeman, Soren Lerby as well as the scoring punch of Wim Kieft and eventually Romário, Hiddink would leave in 1990 and Sir Bobby Robson would come in. Gerets would continue to be a leader on the team although he would be limited in his role at age 36. He saw through the Eindhoven dynasty as the team would win its sixth league title in seven years in 1992.
As a player, Gerets was the absolute leader of the Belgian national team. He was also the boss of the backline and as he got older he was more capable of handling the responsibility of covering the middle of the pitch. Gerets was a player that was tactically disciplined and was able to adjust to any type of defensive scheme. Regardless of the coach he played for he was interchangeable. His grit and his mental toughness made him invaluable to any team that he played for. That is part for the legacy of Gerets and why he is looked upon as a player as one of the all-time greats in Belgian history
His success at the World Cup and with Standard Liége saw Italian giants AC Milan come knocking. Like any other great player, he left for Italy but would only last a season at San Siro. Two years later he would find his way to PSV and he would eventually come to the team that would see him become the premier right back in the world. PSV was a juggernaut domestically and with his veteran experience Gerets gave the insurance in the back so that coach Jan Reker would need. So good was his level of play at PSV, that by his third season he would become team captain- replacing Ruud Gullit. Gullit's departure and the arrival of De Graafschap legend Guus Hiddink to the Boeren bench.
The team would not miss a beat with the young coach Hiddink as they won a second consecutive league. In 1988 PSV would win a third title; but more importantly they would also win the European Cup. Hiddink's team would become the only team to not win its last five matches of the tournament. The team was loaded with talent from the back to front as players like Hans van Breukelen, Ronald Koeman, Soren Lerby as well as the scoring punch of Wim Kieft and eventually Romário, Hiddink would leave in 1990 and Sir Bobby Robson would come in. Gerets would continue to be a leader on the team although he would be limited in his role at age 36. He saw through the Eindhoven dynasty as the team would win its sixth league title in seven years in 1992.
As a player, Gerets was the absolute leader of the Belgian national team. He was also the boss of the backline and as he got older he was more capable of handling the responsibility of covering the middle of the pitch. Gerets was a player that was tactically disciplined and was able to adjust to any type of defensive scheme. Regardless of the coach he played for he was interchangeable. His grit and his mental toughness made him invaluable to any team that he played for. That is part for the legacy of Gerets and why he is looked upon as a player as one of the all-time greats in Belgian history
Player Honours
With Standard de Liege
Belgian League: 1982, 1983
Belgian Cup: 1981
Belgian Super Cup: 1981
With PSV Eindhoven
Dutch League: 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992
Dutch Cup: 1988, 1989, 1990
UEFA Champions League: 1988
I'd take that. @Lord SInister's defence and build up suffers far more than @Enigma_87's attack does. There's a lot of goalscoring left in that frontline.
Yes, that's the thing why I don't see it working well as depicted. It's not just make space and they would work together nicely as here still Maradona is the main man and main organizer in attack. They really have nothing in common with Ibra and even with Ibra his game suffered because of Messi and the way he was shoehorned in that Barca team.
I don't think a top quality #10 for Argentina would be of any use to him a 4-3-3 is the best way to utilize him best and also give him the platform to shine.
To me it's not a personality issues as Messi won't throw a strop but rather cluttering him together with a dominant playmaker in the hole. Working with Xavi as a DLP and Iniesta in subdued role(regardless of direct or tiki-taka style) on the left makes a whole lot of difference rather than shoehorning him in a perfect setup for Maradona.
That's my take on it at least.
@Lord SInister a quick reply on Zico - he played in teams with lot of playmakers in it rather than a setup like yours which is great for Maradona only. Zico was playing alongside Socrates both in the national team and Flamengo. His style is pretty well suited to Di Stefano as he isn't the ball hog type or the one man orchestra but rather pretty direct classic #10 with eye for the goal who loved one two's and quick movement up top. Zico and younger Di Stefano in that role would suit themselves to a tee.
So you are going to play a younger more direct version of Di Stefano who was not yet the total footballer who used to roam around the field and getter deeper looking for combination plays? Which is one of the main concerns of people who are believing him to be playing as a false 9??
Please check this post:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dominoes-draft-qf-enigma_87-vs-lord-sinister.433864/#post-21726613
I've tried to explain it better and in detail there
ok, so since he is not going to drop back, the theory of your team over-flowing my midfield is not gonna arise, while Matthaus will be strictly be man on Maradona, as he cannot afford to give Maradona time and space, while Rijkaard and co will have worries about Messi for protecting the defense?Please check this post:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dominoes-draft-qf-enigma_87-vs-lord-sinister.433864/#post-21726613
I've tried to explain it better and in detail there
So with your forwards trying to stretch my team's defensive line, there will be ample options for Keane and Tigana to work on Zico, as Kalle and Figo will either have to stay wide since they cannot leave my wingbacks free and risk getting isolated, or if they try join midfield, I can exploit the wings.
Although it will give Zico the required space he needs behind the lines but with Rijkaard and Matthaus too busy dealing with their won battles, Zico will not get as much protection as you to give him.
No mate he is dropping back. He was not playing like a cultured striker at the time either. He will roam as it's his style and will drop back, but not start from deep as I've mentioned before in the previous game. He was definitely solid defensively back then and helped the midfield but I'm not going to claim he's the ever present figure in the middle of the park as this was after Puskas arrived.
Di Stefano was always a total footballer and his endless stamina was always put to the test, the difference IMO in the younger and latter version is that the younger was more explosive/clinical and also free roaming in the attacking third, whereas the latter had the same endless stamina but less explosive and dictated games from deep.
If he is dropping back to collect in midfield, will he not congest the area for Zico? As Zico in your formation will be looking to play in the same hole that Di Stefano will try to play in and not on the side.
And with him dropping, your wingers or wide forwards will have to give stay high up wide to keep my defense occupied. Which in turn will give my wing-backs the freedom when there is a turnover. And if you get to counter who will be your target man?
This is really close. At the moment I'm bailing on voting. I think it would be a high-scoring draw say 2-2.
To be honest, I also see their personalities clash a bit.
Looking back at 1982 team, I always remember Socrates' quotes:
"There were tensions in the team which needed to be fixed beforehand," he says. Although the captain, he did not call the shots. "Zico was the king. He was much better than everyone else. When there is a king, the rest fight to be close to the king. So it was Zico who should lead. It was Machiavellian, but I was the prince and Zico the king"
I don't think that Di Stefano would gladly step aside as the side's big man.
I’ve already explained in the OP mate. Di Stefano drops back and Kalle moves up top looks Bg for quick counter if we recuperate possession right away.
Off the ball they can’t get in each other way makes no sense.
This is just plain wrong and completely misunderstands Zico as a player. He is absolutely NOT someone who "prefers to be the only one chief".
You are posting formations without providing any fecking context and completely misinterpreting them.
First let me point out that Zico intentionally changed his game to allow Nunes to be the primary goal scorer for Flamengo. My reliable Flamengo website is sadly down now (http://flapedia.com.br/) but when it was up I could link you the seasons Zico took on the creator role with Nunes as primary goal scorer (Zico still scored a lot of goals). I don't know how many NT matches of Zico you have watched (I have watched almost all of his matches at least the ones available) but again your idea that he "prefers to be the only chief" is literally almost the opposite of the truth.
Zico loved playing with other chiefs like Socrates and Falcao and Cerezo and Zico frequently let others be the chief. I mean Socrates was the captain of the team and Zico had zero problems with that! They were great friends and had great chemistry. Zico also wanted to play with Reinaldo at his peak (another "chief" at the time in Brazil).
And even recently Zico has stated he would love to play with Messi because Zico would not try to score himself but create for Messi all game. Your bolded comment is just very far from reality and actually knowing Zico as a player.
After work I will have to break out my Socrates and Casagrande book and start providing quotes to correct the misinformation being spread here but the match will likely be over then.
You are taking that quote out of context. The tensions on the team had nothing to do with Socrates and Zico playing together but the overall controversy of the military junta and player selections, Tele Santana and his prejudice against Reinaldo and the selection of Serginho (which no one liked) and other tension from players like Batista and Isidoro that believed they should be playing and causing drama.
And just for some more narrative context - Zico's brother was imprisoned by the military junta at early age and Socrates was very vocal in speaking out against. The two had a deep bond that existed far beyond footballing to comraderie over the deeper social issues. They absolutely never clashed on the pitch. That quote is more about how BOTH Zico and Socrates were trying to bind the team together through a lot of drama in the Brazilian federation, upset players like Batista and Isidoro, the Serginho-Reinaldo drama etc.
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Those quotes are Socrates bugging him up mate. I’ve began to write a reply but just saw @oneniltothearsenal put it really well above.
Wonder how only @Physiocrat questioned the Messi in counter attacking setup as an auxiliary player yet the whole discussion revolves around my CB’s and Di Stefano/Zico
I am not saying getting in way, as in bumping each other and playing like two stupid high school teens. more in the text that both roles are exploiting the hole as you said in op. will it not lead of conflict of interests, as their will have to play the a more secondary role, rather than being the main creative passer of the team.
Here is quick quote from Serginho that shows where the tension in 82 was really from
" collectively it was a disgrace, individually it was spectacular..behind the scenes the environment in the camp was a big problem..it was not a cool and calm dressing room. The reserves were not happy and wanting to play. There was talk of players being selected because of the state they were from. I myself was under pressure to play in another style..Those who were playing were fine but there was a bad atmosphere.."
The context for that quote is that Socrates, Zico, Falcao and Cerezo were selected and players like Batista and Isidoro felt it was political.
No tension at all between Zico and Socrates and it was absolutely NOT Zico causing any of the tension. You never see quotes from his teammates implying that so no idea where Sinister got that notion from.
Sorry that wound me up....
" collectively it was a disgrace, individually it was spectacular..behind the scenes the environment in the camp was a big problem..it was not a cool and calm dressing room. The reserves were not happy and wanting to play. There was talk of players being selected because of the state they were from. I myself was under pressure to play in another style..Those who were playing were fine but there was a bad atmosphere.."
The context for that quote is that Socrates, Zico, Falcao and Cerezo were selected and players like Batista and Isidoro felt it was political.
No tension at all between Zico and Socrates and it was absolutely NOT Zico causing any of the tension. You never see quotes from his teammates implying that so no idea where Sinister got that notion from.
Sorry that wound me up....
It's one thing taking our Messis and Maradonas, it's another thing going toe-to-toe with a heavyweight like Enigma in the debating stakes. Great defence of Ziege all-round it has to be said. For me he was certainly the best wide player (full back / wide midfielder) of Euro '96 and a lot of Germany's play went through him, rather than the more routine Babbel on the right.
No mate you completely missed the OP then. Di Stefano is a free roaming forward that would pull the defenders and track back whilst it’s Zico exploiting the hole.
Completely different roles and not overlapping in any way.
Cheers, good to know @oneniltothearsenal
On Ziege vs Figo - they didn't meet in Figo's peak. Saying he wasn't influential when Lord Sinister is comparing a 23 years old Figo compared to the peak one here is far from the truth really. At that time Figo was just finishing his trade in Portugal whilst the Ballon D'оr version came years after that.
It's the same as me showing a video of pocketing a 18 years old Messi in La Liga.
This is Figo at his peak and on showcase here:
It's the same as me showing a video of pocketing a 18 years old Messi in La Liga.
This is Figo at his peak and on showcase here:
Messiah 18 year was single handedly taking on whole Chelsea defense, who were one of the finest defense.
But I get your point about peaks, same can be said about Ziege, peak Ziege is a Euro winner playing in a team similarly set like mine abliet this team is much greater giving his strong areas much power.
But I get your point about peaks, same can be said about Ziege, peak Ziege is a Euro winner playing in a team similarly set like mine abliet this team is much greater giving his strong areas much power.
Yeah, I can't vote on this match at all. Both sides pretty much cancel each other out.
I'm a big fan of false 9's particularly when you have the players who can make up for what they don't provide, which Enigma has done here with Kalle regarding di Stefano. My only concern is that his defence will have a tough time against Kocsis, particularly when Messi will be buzzing around as well. On the other hand, I can see Figo having a big impact in this match. Peak Figo will give peak Ziege a tough time and also pull away Förster, leaving gaps that Zico can potentially exploit.
It can honestly go either way. There's so many little weaknesses that both are exploiting in this matchup.
I'm a big fan of false 9's particularly when you have the players who can make up for what they don't provide, which Enigma has done here with Kalle regarding di Stefano. My only concern is that his defence will have a tough time against Kocsis, particularly when Messi will be buzzing around as well. On the other hand, I can see Figo having a big impact in this match. Peak Figo will give peak Ziege a tough time and also pull away Förster, leaving gaps that Zico can potentially exploit.
It can honestly go either way. There's so many little weaknesses that both are exploiting in this matchup.
Pretty much my view. I think both sides are excellently crafted (after much thought I think it is an excellent setup for Messi - in general however I'm favourable to significantly different uses of players from how they've actually played) and will score goals. Slnister because of the awesome front three and Enigma because the front line is an excellent setup to bamboozle the back three.
I would just say that I am not seeing Kocsis as that big a factor in this game and thats the point I voted for Enigma here. In last game service from Messi and Ribery meant Kocsis would do very well and that tipped that match to LS for me. His great record in both international and club sides came with a fantastic partnership with Czibor who is a GOAT winger. His service from wide was crucial for Kocsis's scoring record and he even scolded Czibor when he was not crossing the ball in the air. Without that kind of service I doubt his great heading is going to be on display. At 5'10' he was also not really a battering ram type forward (like say Vieri) who can hold the ball and act like a target man reference point for Messi to play around. Infact the lack of a proper target man type number 9 was the primary reason Sebes had to experimented and play Hidegkuti as false no. 9.
Also he really did loved the crosses from Czibor, without that kind of service here from LS' wide players his effectiveness is much reduced IMO -
Also he really did loved the crosses from Czibor, without that kind of service here from LS' wide players his effectiveness is much reduced IMO -
Can't believe Enigma is losing this, Lord's team doesn't even have someone to really protect the back four given both his midfielders are box to box and with Zico roaming around in that area, it's going to lead to a lot of problems. An attack of Rumminege, Zico and Di Stefano isnt getting stopped any time soon, i fully expect Figo to play more as a side midfielder than an out and out winger like he did when he was at his best(at barca) to add to the supply of forwards. Both Maradona and Messi lean to the right which is the stronger side of the Enigma defence. Lords team is going to depend alot on Maradona running the show and while it's possible that he'll do great things, i think as a team enigma's team will run the game, do that with Zico in your side, the opposition will be conceding goals aplenty.
btw the same way Messi can't play with Dybala, is the same way i see it going with Maradona and Messi. The team is basically going to have only one player making runs behind the defence, he'll be hard to find.
what is this
Just for example Kocsis had already scored 106 goals from just 81 games in Hodnev before Czibor came to rescue him.
Also it seems like you are forgetting that both of my wing backs are excellent crosser of the ball especially Ziege who is being given a more free reign. Plus there are Messi and Maradona.
Kocsis was not just a one trick pony who can only score with just headers.
Also it seems like you are forgetting that both of my wing backs are excellent crosser of the ball especially Ziege who is being given a more free reign. Plus there are Messi and Maradona.
Kocsis was not just a one trick pony who can only score with just headers.
Cheers mate for that. I think Messi/Maradona chemistry is really overblown in here given that it is indeed a perfect setup for Maradona but to me not for Messi himself as he'll be shaded by Diego in the setup, let alone have all the time on the ball to have the same influence as in the Barca team.
Besides as you mentioned Rijkaard/Matthaus would run the game and provide the screening for the CB's.
Squeaky bum time @Invictus @Pat_Mustard you guys had some great insight on the game wonder if you have decided on the outcome?
Ehm? Let aside Ziege and Gerets, Maradona himself was a fantastic and a very consistent crosser of the ball when he moved outwide, be it to the left or to the right. And I'm not even talking about his overhead crosses. Messi making his trademark passes to the inside left channel would also find a nice target in Kocsis, who, as you said, was not a battering ram forward, but a very prolific and all-rounded finisher.
Always worth a watch