final before the final, two epic teams that dont deserve to go out. Trying to decide whole day for who to vote and in the end i barely decided to go for Lord. I can see a counter plan for every GOAT player out there bar Messi. As good as that back 4 is they wont be able to contain him. Sorry enigma but trust me, its a painful vote as i love and rate your team.
Dominoes draft: QF - Enigma_87 vs Lord SInister
- Thread starter Tuppet
- Start date
I did think about it but he's such a rounded forward I don't see it being much of an issue especially when there isn't a winger to complain to for not crossing. Rather he'd just get on with it.
Kocsis was a good striker, although its nearly indisputable that his greatest strength was his heading. He scored like 100 goals more than the second highest headed goals striker. Also I wouldn't put too much stock on his Honved record that Hungary league was very high scoring. In fact the only times the mighy magyars were stopped it was when their wingers were shackled to an extent. Against Uruguay in 54 Victor Andrade's heroics shackled Czibor and the only after Andrade was injured in extra time Hungary scored two more goals to seal the game. In Miracle of Bern, Budai was dropped and Czibor started on right side and the lack of service did turn Kocsis somewhat anonymous.
Budai also mentioned -
I am not saying that Kocsis is not a good striker or is a one trick pony, I don't however see the point of him in this particular game/formation. Without the wide service you are not getting the deadly striker that scored more than 1 goal per game at international level.
I'm currently 5 minutes in the compilation that I linked on the previous page, literally all of the assists were inch-perfect crosses, from the left and from the right. Of course it's because of the way that its author made the video - crosses first, but I don't know how can anyone say that there is no wide service when there is fully-freed Maradona around.
He is well rounded of course, but that's his main asset. Still players like Ayala and Campbell are no mugs but one of the best defenders of their generation, yet perceived that will get walked over..
No worries mate. Happy that you like my team and also it's great that my ideas are getting across. Really enjoyed building this one.
Messi and Maradona are not sharing the same role or even the same space. Maradona feeding Kocsis and Messi directly or by using Greets and Ziege is going to be the key.
There is a lot to ask from Ziege - mind Figo then be your biggest asset in attack on the left.
I know you are trying to big him up the best way possible, but Ziege just doesn't belong in this company and is a weakness on the pitch no matter how we put it.
In reality your weakest player is expected to man the whole flank and be your main provider of width on the left.
Not saying that Maradona or Messi can't provide the crosses but tactics matter and its very clear that focus is not on crossing from wide areas to Kocsis. And from most players testimony Kocsis needed that focus from wingers to cross the ball to him as much as possible. I don't want to come too harsh against Kocsis, he was a very good forward but he is just not conducive to the style of play that Messi and Maradona would be playing other wise.
@Tuppet my step up has been clear from early. The reason I freed Ziege when compared with Gerets is mainly because Ziege had a mean cross.
Not able to access but watch some of his compilation from his time in Munich and Boro or even later years, he could make even a dummy doll score a header let alone the greatest header ever.
Plus there are Maradona, Messi and Gerets.
Not able to access but watch some of his compilation from his time in Munich and Boro or even later years, he could make even a dummy doll score a header let alone the greatest header ever.
Plus there are Maradona, Messi and Gerets.
But no mention of post injury Maradona
Messi isn't known for running in behind the defence, he loves the space between the lines, which coincidentally is the same space Maradona is about, can't remember the last time Messi made a killer run behind the defence and that's a key role for players playing in front of a playmaker like Maradona. Argenina tried that with Dybala and Messi and it was a mess. However when Messi and Neymar played together they didn't have any issues cause Neymar was about making those runs between full backs and center halves. Burrachaga and Valdano ran of the ball brilliantly in order for Maradona to find them in 86, ditto Carreca and Giordano, just don't see Messi being about that life.
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So Figo is completely free on the right then? Surely that means you have one of your CB's dropping wide to cover would leave plenty of space centrally for Zico, Di Stefano and Kalle?
I'll just preface that both your teams are absolutely awesome and I am definitely nit-picking to find a winner. Now I find it hard to see Ziege and Gerets as big factors. They would have done very well to just contain whats in front of them, asking them to provide width as well esp from Ziege is asking too much. And thats fine because the strength of 5-3-2 lies else where. Its definitely susceptible to wide attack, that was my point in my game as well. If thats not the case then this would be the ultimate formation and everybody would play it. As its giving you 5 at the back, 3 in midfield and 2 forwards you have to pay the price for such strength through middle and its on the wings. Freeing up Ziege is all good and fine but then you have Figo stretching Forster and with Enigma's attack you don't want that to happen.
I think Kocsis is not utilized properly in the squad which is really nit-picky as it would still beat almost every other side in the draft, but I think against a side as potent as Enigma you can not have a player minus his best asset. Thats a very small edge but its all I have between the two sides.
Because he had it easy in 86 with pre peak Matthaus?
So let me get this straight Messi and Maradona will be both central, wide deep up top and Matthaus/Rijkaard will let them get past them all the time running at full pelt at our CB's, while on the other side Ziege and Gerets will completely neutralize the flanks whilst Kalle and Zico would be completely neutralized if we have Kaiser minding Di Stefano. Sounds about right then...
I’ve thought about this some more and still disagree with this personally. I think both Zico or Di Stefano would be better off behind a #9.
Particularly with Matthäus breaking forward as well I think that whole area looks a bit cluttered.
I liked Di Stefanos role in the last game and could see him running the show from that position, whereas here it looks a little bit forced.
btw when Mattaus man marked Maradona in the 86 final it was by far his least influential match of the tournament, even though he did make the tournament winning pass.
I think I've explained it a lot of times already as AdS played in a side with even more dominant playmaker in Pedernera(and in his latter years when Puskas came he was the one man spine), but I don't think I can convince you otherwise. If you think that Messi with a dominant #10 is a better fit mate and no questions are raised...
2 great teams. I guess we have the 2 best teams at this stage.
Let me read these pages
Let me read these pages
I’ve not seen any convincing arguments, no. It seems to me quite obvious that they’re both suited to playing in a deeper #10 role - indeed Di Stefano regularly dropped deep enough to operate as an effective #8.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make with Pedernera.
You want a peak Di Stefano running the game in my opinion, not playing upfront and occasionally dropping into a highly congested area with Zico, Matthäus and the like.
One say "Di Stefano & Zico: conflict of interests"
The other "Messi & Maradona: conflict of interests"
Both duos could work in theory.
That said, I think "Di Stefano & Zico" is slightly more problematic than "Messi & Maradona" because Messi will be happy to navigate between the right wing and the penalty area.
Like Neymar, Messi is better as free-role forward than a pure #10: he needs freedom and would get it here IMO.
The other "Messi & Maradona: conflict of interests"
Both duos could work in theory.
That said, I think "Di Stefano & Zico" is slightly more problematic than "Messi & Maradona" because Messi will be happy to navigate between the right wing and the penalty area.
Like Neymar, Messi is better as free-role forward than a pure #10: he needs freedom and would get it here IMO.
Playing a target man when the opposition has two stoppers and Beckenbauer sweeping is better? You need a complete forward who will roam around and pull them out of position and also finish chances. Who is better than Di Stefano in that role?
There is no good reason a target man is better playing against this LS side.
I've already explained in post #40:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dominoes-draft-qf-enigma_87-vs-lord-sinister.433864/#post-21726613
why I picked Di Stefano in this role and which "version" of Di Stefano I'm using here to avoid confusion.
Either way think the game is pretty much done considering there is only hour left on the clock and I don't think you've ever voted for me in these drafts so have to pick my battles in here not the losing ones
EDIT: don't get me wrong mate, I mean that we usually have different views which is perfectly ok
Congrats @Lord SInister . You need a quality LWB to replace Ziege next and I think you'll make the SF's and F a pure formality.
This made me chuckle and I think its a great way of putting it.
Interesting point.
1. Hungary + Barcelona : 117 in 143 goals. If you exclude his headers, we can assume he still scored a high # of goals with his foot as you can see below.
2. A golden head is also a way of delivering assists, intercepting the ball...
3. I guess his role is also to be a focal point, attract the attention of central defenders...
4. I don't know well Ziege and Gerets but they seem to have a good reputation in terms of offensive contribution
Feel the same way mate - still remember when you were rattling on for three pages about Stoichkov being wasted on the right!Either way think the game is pretty much done considering there is only hour left on the clock and I don't think you've ever voted for me in these drafts so have to pick my battles in here not the losing ones
Probably just see some things differently which is fine - for this game I just see Di Stefano and Zico overlapping slightly and I don’t think they get the best out of each other (particularly with Matthäus as well who shouldn’t be sidelined).
Think we should team up in the coming ones, would be interesting challenge to fit both ideologies if you are up for it.
And I still be rattling on about Stoichkov being wasted on the right!
That's how I see it as well. Yes, he was famous for his powerful headers, but he was more than just an aerially-dominant forward. He was skilled with the ball at his feet, and he was also an excellent forward, overall, demonstrating great movement and finishing. If Maradona and Careca forged a great partnership, then I can see Kocsis enjoying Maradona's service here.
Great discussions guys. Kudos
Yeah, Maradona was more than a dribbler. Top video.Ehm? Let aside Ziege and Gerets, Maradona himself was a fantastic and a very consistent crosser of the ball when he moved outwide, be it to the left or to the right. And I'm not even talking about his overhead crosses. Messi making his trademark passes to the inside left channel would also find a nice target in Kocsis, who, as you said, was not a battering ram forward, but a very prolific and all-rounded finisher.
Always worth a watch
Like Platini and Di Stefano, he really likes to support the defensive midfielders in the buildup and launching counter-attacks from far away
In the end, I decided to go for Enigma as RooneyLegend made a good point about Messi and Maradona. The fact that Kocsis is the only real runner behind Enigma's defence will make things easier for Enigma's team. If there was a second runner behind that defence from somewhere, LS might stand a greater chance.
The attack of Enigma is superb and unpredictable while his defense is less glamourous but it's good to see players like Campbell and Cole on these drafts
I don't think anyone's buying my cribbing regarding Kocsis but still, rsssf mentions that he scored more than 493 goals - http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html while this UEFA article claim he scored more than 400 goals through headers - http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2192731.html
Even if these figures are not accurate that is an astounding ratio of headed to non headed goals. Now that video almost makes a point of not showing his headed goals but certainly his most famous goals were headers - 2 vs Uruguay in world cup SF, 2 vs Sweden in Olympic SF (didn't score in either final) or his headed goals for Barca in both final and semifinal of 1961 European Champion Clubs' Cup final.
Sebes who was his coach even mentioned -
Now that is not to say he can not score from his feet at all, he was obviously technically gifted to play in a team as great as that Hungarian team. But to me at least its clear that he is not utilized fully, its like asking Messi to never dribble and only pass, which he can do but taking his dribbling away is crazy. I just find it weird that you take probably the greatest header of the ball ever and than play him in 5-3-2 and I think that Kocsis won't be happy with that.
I don't think the kind of heading he was doing is very effective for delivering assists or intercepting balls. Because he was not really tall he must have had a hell of a leap. The UEFA article above also mentioned that his leap and his neck very super strong like Cristiano, and you do not jump that high in air and produce power on ball to intercept or assist you are usually powering crosses toward net.
Zeige and Gerets were good players, but a) they are facing Figo and Kalle and b) Ziege is definitely underwhelming in all time context. I mean Valencia at his peak provided plenty of crosses to Rooney, nobody would play him in an all time draft.
Saying all that I can totally see how LS would win this game, its just too close. And since this game is all but over, I don't see how LS would not win the draft from here.
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@Tuppet
Good points about Kocsis but you didn't copy-paste the full quote
Good points about Kocsis but you didn't copy-paste the full quote
http://www.fifa.com/news/y=2014/m=9/news=remembering-the-golden-head-of-hungary-2441925.html
I just got that quote from the UEFA article that I linked it did not have this part. Also never declined that he is a good forward with his feet, just he is an exceptional one with his head.
@Tuppet Some of the magyars in-game footage I’ve seen showed Kocsis to be quite a lot more rounded than his Golden Head reputation implies. He was very quick and linked really well with the rest of the attack. Tactically I think there are few better foils for Maradona and he’d do enough here to occupy the centre-halves. That said could see Sol matching up to him pretty well, similar set of strengths.
No worries. I had him in a previous draft so I remember the article
@Enigma_87 great game bud.
You had an outstanding team and gave me an perfect fight. It was just a milli second difference.
You had an outstanding team and gave me an perfect fight. It was just a milli second difference.
Cheers mate, go get a class LWB and you'll walk it from here. Quality drafting and great debut