[711]

After reprocessing last night's performance, I'm still convinced he was pretty good for 60-odd minutes until he started playing as a forward. It was a neat and tidy CM performance, with the pass to Greenwood being his highlight. I think his defensive awareness, tracking of runners and his aggression on the tackle have improved a lot for someone who used to play mostly AM.

As constructive criticism I would say he still needs to improve a bit in making himself available for a pass and moving into a better position after he's passed the ball. I think that's an area that Matic and Fred in particular do very well in. As soon the CBs or fullbacks receive the ball they are instantly switched on and move into free space to receive it. They also become available for a return pass pretty quickly after passing the ball to someone else. I think Matic had something like 25% more touches yesterday as a result of being better positioned to received the ball. I feel that Donny still goes through periods of ball watching a bit. Either when he's sitting next to defender or when he passes the ball to someone else and then he just stands where he is, ball-watching.

Another difference I see between players like him and Matic/McTominay/Fred... is carrying the ball. When the Donny gets pressed he will always try to offload the ball. Which isn't a bad thing per se, but sometimes if you try to press our other CMs from an unfavourable (for the defender) angle, they will just accelerate past you and carry the ball forward to create an opening. Even Matic showed acceleration and carry ability like that in yesterday's game whereas I don't see that carry ability in VdB at all. However, I don't feel like that's a stick to beat him with because I think that's his style of play and unlikely to change at his age. He also never really showed such ability at Ajax, so we must have known that when we signed him.

Just came on to say similar, but wouldn't have put it as well. On the plus side VdB is a very accurate short range passer, and even better he gets the ball away just as accurately when under pressure, but then, that's it, he stands or walks, makes no attempt to run into space for a return pass or to draw players to him to create space, it's like he's done his bit, that's it.

Another plus I suppose is that he did actually tackle yesterday, previously he's looked a bit fraudulent in that respect. I don't know if he's changed or I've mis-read him in the past though, I'll admit it could be either.

 

[Litch]

Whether people thought he was great or not, that's a matter of opinion. What I'm pretty sure about is when Rashford comes back and is a shoehorn on the Left, Pogs is starting in that midfield. That leaves Scott, Fred and Matic in front of him. Donny is less of a 6, than all of them. He'll be gone in January.

 

[Drizzle]

Whether people thought he was great or not, that's a matter of opinion. What I'm pretty sure about is when Rashford comes back and is a shoehorn on the Left, Pogs is starting in that midfield. That leaves Scott, Fred and Matic in front of him. Donny is less of a 6, than all of them. He'll be gone in January.

Agreed. Unless major injuries happen in the meantime or he happens to start tearing it up when he does get minutes, which is highly unlikely, he must be gone in January.

 

[Stacks]

I don’t know what was so impressive about his performance tbh. 9/10 he played the safest passes and didn’t show anything that a young midfielder from the academy couldn’t. I’m all for giving him a chance but let’s not rave over a very average performance especially for a midfielder as expensive as him.

Its the Fred syndrome

 

[largelyworried]

Whether people thought he was great or not, that's a matter of opinion. What I'm pretty sure about is when Rashford comes back and is a shoehorn on the Left, Pogs is starting in that midfield. That leaves Scott, Fred and Matic in front of him. Donny is less of a 6, than all of them. He'll be gone in January.

Irrespective of VDB, I would be very surprised if Pogba ended up starting frequently in that CM position. I only see us playing him there when the opposition doesnt challenge us in midfield, like Newcastle the other week.

 

[Litch]

I don’t know what was so impressive about his performance tbh. 9/10 he played the safest passes and didn’t show anything that a young midfielder from the academy couldn’t. I’m all for giving him a chance but let’s not rave over a very average performance especially for a midfielder as expensive as him.

Forums are funny places and fans can be so blickered for players they like. The hate for Fred and Scott means they are prepared to try and talk things into existence yet ignore the very things those players are criticised for. DVB clearly plays a significant fault in the goal that costs us the game yet gets MOTM? I would have loved to read the comments if that was Scott or Fred....

 

[Litch]

Irrespective of VDB, I would be very surprised if Pogba ended up starting frequently in that CM position. I only see us playing him there when the opposition doesnt challenge us in midfield, like Newcastle the other week.

So we are trying to get him to renew his contract. Rashford always plays when fit (in fact injured too), where does Pogs play? Instead of Bruno? You think he's going to resign whilst sitting on the bench?

 

[Highfather_24]

The problem with VdB(and also Fred) is when they lose the ball, they impulsively run toward the player to counter press, and if they fail to win the ball, it leaves us open to a counter. Also he needs to improve his shooting, its dreadful.

A good performance yesterday. Probably never going to be United starting quality.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I don’t know what was so impressive about his performance tbh. 9/10 he played the safest passes and didn’t show anything that a young midfielder from the academy couldn’t. I’m all for giving him a chance but let’s not rave over a very average performance especially for a midfielder as expensive as him.

I think that's more because you don't know what you're looking for in a good midfield performance.

He didn't just play safely, but he did play safely when required. He kept the ball moving quickly often with 1 touch that kept the tempo up, and he passed forwards with a good weight whenever possible.

He hit the long ball when it was needed - see the pass to Greenwood for his early chance. If that's Fernandes everbody is raving about a great killer pass.

He did his defensive work very well, won plenty of tackles and smashed through a couple of them - something the crowd were loving and perhaps not expecting from him.

He made some good 3rd man runs also. Honestly it was a very solid performance. I'd give him a genuine 7/10.

 

[Litch]

Agreed. Unless major injuries happen in the meantime or he happens to start tearing it up when he does get minutes, which is highly unlikely, he must be gone in January.

Would have to be a lot of injuries. I think DVB is more of an 8, but even if Bruno got injured, he play Pogs there in front of McFred....

 

[Bilbo]

Forums are funny places and fans can be so blickered for players they like. The hate for Fred and Scott means they are prepared to try and talk things into existence yet ignore the very things those players are criticised for. DVB clearly plays a significant fault in the goal that costs us the game yet gets MOTM? I would have loved to read the comments if that was Scott or Fred....

I don't really have any emotional affinity for Donny. He hasn't ever really felt like a United player to me yet because we've seen so little of him.

For me he's been mostly awful when he's played for us. He was rubbish against Young Boys and deserved to be hooked. Last night though was a lot better. Got about the pitch well, was available for a pass more often, and mostly kept it neat and tidy but also made a couple of key passes. He seems to have suffered here for two main factors. Lack of confidence, and a natural tendency to drift forwards at the wrong moments. Last night was a step in the right direction. Probably his best game for us.

 

[Litch]

I think that's more because you don't know what you're looking for in a good midfield performance.

He didn't just play safely, but he did play safely when required. He kept the ball moving quickly often with 1 touch that kept the tempo up, and he passed forwards with a good weight whenever possible.

He hit the long ball when it was needed - see the pass to Greenwood for his early chance. If that's Fernandes everbody is raving about a great killer pass.

He did his defensive work very well, won plenty of tackles and smashed through a couple of them - something the crowd were loving and perhaps not expecting from him.

He made some good 3rd man runs also. Honestly it was a very solid performance. I'd give him a genuine 7/10.

Clearly Ole doesn't either then?

 

[largelyworried]

So we are trying to get him to renew his contract. Rashford always plays when fit (in fact injured too), where does Pogs play? Instead of Bruno? You think he's going to resign whilst sitting on the bench?

Teams stopped having just 11 first teamers years ago.

 

[MadMike]

So we are trying to get him to renew his contract. Rashford always plays when fit (in fact injured too), where does Pogs play? Instead of Bruno? You think he's going to resign whilst sitting on the bench?

We are also trying to renew Lingard and god knows when or how often he will play when Rashford is back too. Especially if Pogba renews.

Considering Lingard plays in any position of the 3 in the 4-2-3-1, I just don't see him leapfrogging 3 out of Rashford, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood and Sancho to play in many meaningful games. Because that's what's required for Lingard to start the game. Otherwise he'd just be staying for league cup starts and the occasional substitute appearance.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Clearly Ole doesn't either then?

Where did he say he didn't play well?

Ole has made it clear he likes the Mcfred partnership, but performances like that last night show he's more than ready for more minutes.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Problem is, whether he was good or bad the result reflects badly on the whole second string. If we won he would come out with a lot more favour for ole I would say.

 

[fergieisold]

He tired a bit later on but I thought he was really good. Surely put himself in contention for more time in the PL/CL.

 

[Litch]

I don't really have any emotional affinity for Donny. He hasn't ever really felt like a United player to me yet because we've seen so little of him.

For me he's been mostly awful when he's played for us. He was rubbish against Young Boys and deserved to be hooked. Last night though was a lot better. Got about the pitch well, was available for a pass more often, and mostly kept it neat and tidy but also made a couple of key passes. He seems to have suffered here for two main factors. Lack of confidence, and a natural tendency to drift forwards at the wrong moments. Last night was a step in the right direction. Probably his best game for us.

I think context is alway important. Sometimes in football I think the significance of the game and the opposition is massive when assessing performances. That was a second string West Ham side in a cup of little significance than getting squad players game time. I like him but if most on here were honest, the positive energy around DVB is based on the polar opposite of McFred.

 

[yipthatman]

Bailly had the front post covered. VDB moved to double up on the front post and left a man free.

I like VDB and want him to succeed but he has a long way to go yet. Even he looked guilty after that goal went in. He knows it and we know it. It was his man that scored, for sure. If this was Fred there would be loads of abuse and hate. Mistakes happen, just one of those things but I don't know why people sugar coat it for VDB.

 

[Litch]

Teams stopped having just 11 first teamers years ago.

You right. I look forward to seeing CR, Bruno, Varane, Harry being rested in PL games also then.....

 

[VanDeBank]

I like VDB and want him to succeed but he has a long way to go yet. Even he looked guilty after that goal went in. He knows it and we know it. It was his man that scored, for sure. If this was Fred there would be loads of abuse and hate. Mistakes happen, just one of those things but I don't know why people sugar coat it for VDB.

No, what @Adnan says is correct:

It's actually funny because he does well in that situation and sees that Lindelof has to move out of his defensive space and he steps into it. And the pass is intended for that player in that particular space but unfortunately there's a deflection off Lindelof that falls into the path of Lanzini.

Telles and Matic's poor defensive play causes chaos for us and both are to blame for the goal IMO.

VDB was not at fault for the goal. His decision to get in the box was a good one so Lindelof can step out and make it a 1v1 for the guy that beat Telles. It's Matic's man that scored. Or he should have gotten in the box so Donny could stick to that guy.

He played a really good game, precisely because he was solid all round and wasn't culpable for the goal.

 

[Bilbo]

I think context is alway important. Sometimes in football I think the significance of the game and the opposition is massive when assessing performances. That was a second string West Ham side in a cup of little significance than getting squad players game time. I like him but if most on here were honest, the positive energy around DVB is based on the polar opposite of McFred.

I'm fine with McFred. My opinion on him is purely based on whether he can be an alternative option. I'd like to see him alongside McTominay at some point, and for me last night gave me slightly more comfort that he isn't just completely out of place here.

 

[Litch]

Where did he say he didn't play well?

Ole has made it clear he likes the Mcfred partnership, but performances like that last night show he's more than ready for more minutes.

Ole doesn't play him irrespective of performances. I'm not entirely sure that playing against a second string West Ham side changes that either. More minutes, for who? Ole's already going to have to work out what he's does with Pogs?

 

[RuudTom83]

He wasn't great. But it was one of the very few times he's played and been involved enough in the game, for the watching fans to make a judgement.

I could see what he was trying to do and for the most part he executed it well. Progress!

Same for Sancho, its just a shame they lost and wont have the chance to play in the next round. (Which is no big deal after the drawing City)

 

[Litch]

I'm fine with McFred. My opinion on him is purely based on whether he can be an alternative option. I'd like to see him alongside McTominay at some point, and for me last night gave me slightly more comfort that he isn't just completely out of place here.

Next to Scott? They are far too similar and natural instinct is to go forward that cover defensively. In my opinion we will never see that, there are too many alternatives than to end up with that one...

 

[Andersonson]

It's nice to actually watch games, instead of reading a stats sheet(not that I think he was MOTM myself, but he was definitely good).

I watched the game and he wasn't very good in general. On par with most of them. But mistake led to a goal and therefore his rating is below Matic for instance.

No chance in hell he was good or MOTM. But not terrible either

 

[Adam-Utd]

Ole doesn't play him irrespective of performances. I'm not entirely sure that playing against a second string West Ham side changes that either. More minutes, for who? Ole's already going to have to work out what he's does with Pogs?

Fred and Mctominay are hardly lighting the league up either to be honest. Do you really think how Scott played recently against West Ham was any better? not for me.

They're in there because they work well together and are always running, not because they're actually better players.

I think last night was the fittest VDB has looked. His confidence is returning and it's no coincidence after playing only last week in the CL and now 90 minutes here. His forward passing in particular is really nice to see, his first touch is always solid and then passes with the right weight to help his team mate control it. Watch the video above and see how easy people control his passes because they're not bouncing about or hit too hard or soft like Mcfred often do.

I don't know if you've ever played sport yourself but there's literally no way you can be at your best playing only 10-15 minutes here and there every month.

Fred had the same issue when he first joined. Mourinho would play him once a month and when he was shite he'd be back in prison for another month. Only once Pogba got injured and he had a proper run in the side did we see the best of him.

 

[Grande]

I think that's more because you don't know what you're looking for in a good midfield performance.

He didn't just play safely, but he did play safely when required. He kept the ball moving quickly often with 1 touch that kept the tempo up, and he passed forwards with a good weight whenever possible.

He hit the long ball when it was needed - see the pass to Greenwood for his early chance. If that's Fernandes everbody is raving about a great killer pass.

He did his defensive work very well, won plenty of tackles and smashed through a couple of them - something the crowd were loving and perhaps not expecting from him.

He made some good 3rd man runs also. Honestly it was a very solid performance. I'd give him a genuine 7/10.

I’d give him 6/10 myself. Agree with most of what you point out, and particularily he was one of very few players who tried to increase our passing pace, in stark contrast to partner Matic. On the other side, there were a bit too many weak passes for my liking. Leaving his man for the goal is a big negative, seeing as we were six to three ir something outnumbering them. It points towards him not being enough aware of what are urgent defensive duties, which there has been other, less dramatic evidence of. Hopefully he has a better brain for learning such stuff than Pogba.

For me he us clearly behind Fred and McTominay in capacity for the MF role as of yet, but he is not a big step down. He has a very different skill set to Matic, particularily in reading defensive situations (not to wonder!), but he showed a few instances yeaterday of that so special Carrick-trait: To wait out a man at such a perfect distance, with such calm footwark that the attacker doesn’t get to neither dribble nor pass anywhere but away from our danger areas. If he can learn to master that art, he can become a useful option.

 

[Litch]

We are also trying to renew Lingard and god knows when or how often he will play when Rashford is back too. Especially if Pogba renews.

Considering Lingard plays in any position of the 3 in the 4-2-3-1, I just don't see him leapfrogging 3 out of Rashford, Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood and Sancho to play in many meaningful games. Because that's what's required for Lingard to start the game. Otherwise he'd just be staying for league cup starts and the occasional substitute appearance.

Agree. Lingard has already shown his value from the bench too. The saddest thing about yesterday's loss, is we probably won't see many of those squad players again unless of injuries. Ole desperately needs a trophy and can't see him playing a weaker team from this moment on. Tried it with Young Boys and last night, two losses....

 

[largelyworried]

You right. I look forward to seeing CR, Bruno, Varane, Harry being rested in PL games also then.....

Competition for places and being rested are not the same thing.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

He had a good game last night, probed more with his passing and was more assertive in trying to create chances, some didn't come off and some did, but at least he was assertive, not passive in his passing, he was always aggressive in his tackling and defensive duties, few more games like this and he could be a good option as a CM.

 

[Litch]

Fred and Mctominay are hardly lighting the league up either to be honest. Do you really think how Scott played recently against West Ham was any better? not for me.

They're in there because they work well together and are always running, not because they're actually better players.

I think last night was the fittest VDB has looked. His confidence is returning and it's no coincidence after playing only last week in the CL and now 90 minutes here. His forward passing in particular is really nice to see, his first touch is always solid and then passes with the right weight to help his team mate control it. Watch the video above and see how easy people control his passes because they're not bouncing about or hit too hard or soft like Mcfred often do.

I don't know if you've ever played sport yourself but there's literally no way you can be at your best playing only 10-15 minutes here and there every month.

Fred had the same issue when he first joined. Mourinho would play him once a month and when he was shite he'd be back in prison for another month. Only once Pogba got injured and he had a proper run in the side did we see the best of him.

I'm not basing it on my or your opinions, I'm basing it on what Ole has done for pretty much since he's been here. I get that people don't rate McFred, but if they get you to 3rd then 2nd in PL they have contributed to Ole staying in his dream job. People can argue it, but he plays them for good reason. Are they good enough to win CL or PL and turn semi's/ finals probably not, but there are others including Pogs and Bruno who have not turned up on those occasions too.

He's a nice player but his position on the team is either Bruno or Pogs. If you don't think so, even Pogs has had to sit on the bench for McFred.

 

[Litch]

Competition for places and being rested are not the same thing.

That was not my point but often managers used being rested as a smoke screen anyway. My point is Donny is no competition for Pogs, Bruno, Fred, Scott or Matic. That's not based on my opinion, just based on what Ole has done to date. Do you think Eric or Lindelof are competition for Varane or Harry?

 

[Adam-Utd]

I'm not basing it on my or your opinions, I'm basing it on what Ole has done for pretty much since he's been here. I get that people don't rate McFred, but if they get you to 3rd then 2nd in PL they have contributed to Ole staying in his dream job. People can argue it, but he plays them for good reason. Are they good enough to win CL or PL and turn semi's/ finals probably not, but there are others including Pogs and Bruno who have not turned up on those occasions too.

He's a nice player but his position on the team is either Bruno or Pogs. If you don't think so, even Pogs has had to sit on the bench for McFred.

Pogba might not be here next summer.

Anyway, why couldn't we play them together? VDB is no less weak than Fred and defensively he's no worse than Matic either.

I actually think Pogba and he couild have a nice partnership, i'll always go for players who can pass properly first in midfield. Sort of a budget Scholes/Carrick.

Maybe not so good for the harder away matches, but at home where we are dominating like last night it could work well. It's almost a shame we didn't have a centre forward last night as we could have won by 3/4 goals.

 

[largelyworried]

That was not my point but often managers used being rested as a smoke screen anyway. My point is Donny is no competition for Pogs, Bruno, Fred, Scott or Matic. That's not based on my opinion, just based on what Ole has done to date. Do you think Eric or Lindelof are competition for Varane or Harry?

My point is that I don't foresee Pogba being in that CM spot regularly, so I think we have Fred, McT and Matic there for two slots. Not exactly an abundance of talent honestly. So there's plenty of room for trying out VDB over a 50 odd game season.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

I'm not basing it on my or your opinions, I'm basing it on what Ole has done for pretty much since he's been here. I get that people don't rate McFred, but if they get you to 3rd then 2nd in PL they have contributed to Ole staying in his dream job. People can argue it, but he plays them for good reason. Are they good enough to win CL or PL and turn semi's/ finals probably not, but there are others including Pogs and Bruno who have not turned up on those occasions too.

He's a nice player but his position on the team is either Bruno or Pogs. If you don't think so, even Pogs has had to sit on the bench for McFred.

Agreed, in Ole's eyes, VdB is still not a viable option in the CM position for PL/CL games (exception was the game vs YB as Matic played full game vs Newcastle and Mctom was injured), but I think if VdB builds on yesterday performance, maybe around Jan-Feb 2022, he could be a serious choice for Ole, but that still depends on how much game time he is given and what he does with those minutes given to him, so far, in yesterday's game, he was good (not MoTM level or a strong one, just ok to good)

 

[Litch]

My point is that I don't foresee Pogba being in that CM spot regularly, so I think we have Fred, McT and Matic there for two slots. Not exactly an abundance of talent honestly. So there's plenty of room for trying out VDB over a 50 odd game season.

Again, what we think as fans are one thing, what Ole thinks might be different. He clearly rates them. You are right that based on what I've seen to date, Ole plays McFred in every big game if fit. Rashfords injury has allowed Pogs to play left and drift centrally. My point is when Rashford is fit, he plays on the left, can't move onto the right cause we have Sancho and Greenwood there. Arguably despite people's thoughts, we still also have Tony on the left.

Said it already, if the club want to keep him, they are going to have to play him. I think that will be next to Fred or Scott and occasionally Matic.

 

[Conor]

I watched the game and he wasn't very good in general. On par with most of them. But mistake led to a goal and therefore his rating is below Matic for instance.

No chance in hell he was good or MOTM. But not terrible either

His mistake did not lead to the goal, a deflection causing the ball to completely change direction caused the goal, he had correctly anticipated the ball across the box, you don't just mark your man forever until the ball goes out of play, regardless of the context. Would you blame a keeper for a deflected goal? He was very tidy and had some nice through balls, probably should have had an assist, and got caught a few times towards the end. He was one of our better players easily, and definitely played well. He also moved the ball quickly and was constantly directing other players, with half of them ignoring him to take another 3 touches before letting go of the ball.

 

[Litch]

Agreed, in Ole's eyes, VdB is still not a viable option in the CM position for PL/CL games (exception was the game vs YB as Matic played full game vs Newcastle and Mctom was injured), but I think if VdB builds on yesterday performance, maybe around Jan-Feb 2022, he could be a serious choice for Ole, but that still depends on how much game time he is given and what he does with those minutes given to him, so far, in yesterday's game, he was good (not MoTM level or a strong one, just ok to good)

I think even if he scored an hat trick it changes nothing. Strange signing and I think given there was serious thought Pogs was leaving, he was a viable alternative. Pogs staying changed that, but that said, Pogs can talk to clubs in January so if he signs a pre agreement elsewhere, Ole might bench him as he is no longer in his plans. That might be DVB chance....?

 

[RooneyLegend]

He did reasonably well but for the love of god why are our midfielders afraid to pass the ball? Our inability to move the ball quickly from side to side is killing us at this point. We are generating zero space for our wingers to work with.