weren't these West Ham reserve players and Moyes made 11 changes?
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That's exactly what we should be testing but won't because if Ole benches Pogba, Pogba doesn't sign and the Glazers will have far more animosity towards Ole than if we just play like a pub team.
Pogba is a quality player, will have great games here and there, but he is tactically indisciplined. Not inept, indisciplined. He is a luxury player you have to adjust the rest of the team to and, frankly, not worth doing it for us.
Stick VdB next to Bruno with a single pivot and we would still need a better guy for that last role, but at least it wouldn't be completely hopeless and like butter under a hot knife.
Hang on, Donny gets as stuck in as Fred and certainly more than McTominay who is just as passive as Lindelof is in making tackles. There are several instances of his successful presses and slide tackles to stop counterattacks. He might not have Fred's stamina but the difference in quality on the ball (in my opinion, clearly) more than makes up for whatever differences in energy exist between he and Fred. For people who say 'stupid buy, sell him and buy a proper midfielder', the point remains that it would make more sense to fund the purchase of better midfielders with money from the sale of Fred or McT.He doesnt have the energy/ball winning of McT/Fred, not a better DLP than Matic, nor more creative than Bruno/Pogba. But lets not go into whether he is better than them all.
What's more interesting to me is people worrying about his career etc over Man Utd. Lets be honest here, VdB has basically replaced Pereira in the squad. If VdB was sold, it would probably be Pereira there instead of him.
I'd rather have VdB as a squad player. Not every player has an equal role in the squad, people need to understand this. Imagine someone saying "Why isnt Wes Brown playing more, he really should move to another club". Why would you sell your squad players? He gets paid to perform when required for us, he's not a starter. First time I've seen players worrying about a bench player's career, I couldnt care less
Does it matter? He did the same for Ajax against Real/Bayern/Spurs/Juventus etc. That's the beauty of quick passes, doesn't matter against what opponent it is, if you're quick and accurate you can do it against any opponent
Four? Unless you are playing five at the back.
And none of those compete with him bar Pogba, theoretically, on paper, not based on what anyone with a pair of eyes can see: it leaves Fred all by himself and swamped.
Because he is his current manager. If he doesn't care about the future of his players then he is not fit to be a Manager.
Having a talent like Pogba will always be polarizing in a competitive league like the Premier League. I just cannot believe the team should have this mentality that they are worse off without Pogba or a fear of losing him. As a functional group, they should be better without Pogba...and they have proven to be when Pogba was out the past couple of seasons. McFred, when playing at their best, which has not been the case so far, works well enough. Introducing Matic and VDB or playing with two 8s like they did a little bit (or 4141) against Villareal, but not with Pogba, should be done.
I still advocate having VDB in the squad, but having him eat into Pogba's positions and time on the pitch.
Yes, meant 4. The others do compete with him because Pogba can move further up the pitch if those other players aren't in contention. Pogba has to play cm to make space for the other players in the front 4 positions. By choosing VDB, you are basically choosing him over those players because he either takes Pogba's position or he forces Pogba up to the lw where he then takes one of the others' positions.
Moyes made 10 changes, we did 11 if I'm not mistaken.
It's understandable you want to downplay the importance of that game, but what can van de Beek do to get into the team?
Should we expect from him amazing 5min cameos? When was the last time someone developed into a proper player with as limited game time as Donny?
Donny, Donny give us a smile.
Oh Donny did you know
That this is Disneyland
Oh Donny did you know
Everton is a wasteland
Oh Donny did you know
We have plans for you
Oh Donny did you know
Oops now you know
That this is Disneyland
Oh Donny did you know
Everton is a wasteland
Oh Donny did you know
We have plans for you
Oh Donny did you know
Oops now you know
This is my issue though, because he’s had a torrid time of it last season, people now demand an exceptional performance every time he plays, whether it’s a full game or 10 minutes. Even when’s he’s solid if unspectacular, he gets slated. In the incredibly limited playing time he has had so far this season, yes, I genuinely do think he’s been better than the other two (as of this moment), and certainly worth a run of games, which he has never really had.
Just for reference, look at Sancho’s performance thread, realistically the lad has been something of a letdown to date (not all through his own fault mind), but people are defending him to the hilt and praising the most minor of things he does in game.
I am just curious. How did he actually perform in those games? Any goals/assists/key passes etc?
He is capable of doing decent short passing and it is why he is very useful in final 3rd.
But, playing deep against team that will press and bully us would be a totally different circumstance. I think Ole has the same reservation about it.
People keep talking about how Fred can't control the ball and Tommy can't pass. Those are true but their engine and playing style suit deeper roles yet we think they can't protect the back 4. Well, I can't see how Donny would especially he does not have any attributes to be a combative midfielder from the deep.
Yeah, so the bottomline is that somehow retro-fitting aguaranteed start for Pogba is the issue.
Feck that. And no, I'm not saying that because I'm some VdB fanboy. I was having the exact same musical chairs discussion earlier on the Cavani thread and kept running into the same blind alley. As you say, fitting more atackers, nailed on better ones once you factor in Rashford returning, requires "CM Pogba".
That's where I still give Ole a lot of leeway, he is a bit fecked really.
Has Donny ever started more then three games in a row for us?
How exactly can you get on any sort of form gong if when he finally does start a game he is often dropped the next one.
How exactly can you get on any sort of form gong if when he finally does start a game he is often dropped the next one.
I’d like to see a Donny and McTominay pairing given a go in the league, think it would give us better ball retention and be a bit more creative going forward which would be a big bonus against sides that come with a low block.
Looks like he's doing handcuffs to me
Donny, Donny give us a smile.
If you can't see that he is better than both Fred and Mc Tominay even at that position in midfield which is supposed to not be his main position, I wonder if you watched the same game vs. West Ham like we did.
The point is Ole keeps playing Fred and McT whilst none of them is any better than VdB to say the least!
He doesn't, though. That's why there are so many fans that ask for him to start every game. His name trends before and after almost every match. He has been pretty average and still has massive amounts of support. I have never seen a bench player get the amount of support that Donny has from our fans.
People will defend Sancho, because he's 21 and this is his first real season in England. People know that coming from Germany to England is not easy. Especially for a young player.
Of course I watched it, wouldn't comment on it if I didn't. And I disagree. So does the coaching staff. He ain't better than them, if he was he would play.
Doesn't really matter though, the manager doesn't rate him above them either. Matic is probably ahead of him too.
Yes apparently he did and there is a video that is going viral now. But I think a lot of people will be disappointed in the way he plays. He plays those one touch movements and does not dribble much and does not slide in to tackle etc. But he was always involved in creating chances and scoring himself. He does come much deeper than Pogba does and defends more. I actually think it would be better for the team to play him and Bruno rather than Pogba. It would give better stability to the team and can play another attacker while Donny and maybe Matic can play in the middle. But he needs to be given a few matches for sure before he can get into his stride.
Ole may not sell him but if he does not play him now he would agitate for a move and if he leaves and if Pogba does not sign a new contract we will be short of two midfield players.
I think he is a 10 or at least played where Pogba did in the last game like you said.
But, his direct competition is not with McFred though because he probably would not do better than they are in long term. People kept saying how those two were bad at passing and Donny was good. Except, Donny would not just stand there and pass around all day. He will get bullied, pressed, haunted and he will have to do the same to the other team attackers.
Donny is not that type.
It is not that Ole is not being honest with him. He just could not find a good platform for him to play. For all we know, the club could probably be forcing Ole to keep playing Pogba for obvious reasons.
Not looking for good him and Ole.
Maybe fans see a better footballer that could improve a shite midfield.
Sancho is English and came through at Man city
. People will defend Sancho as they know he is being shafted by non existent coaching and management. Players here have to basically do it all themselvesI dont think VdB is much of a progressive passer. The defense usually bypasses the midfield when VdB plays.
The fans aren't always right. A lot of the time, they probably aren't.Maybe fans see a better footballer that could improve a shite midfield.
Sancho is English and came through at Man city
Did he even play for City's first team? All of his first team experience is playing in Germany. You can't compare playing in the youth team league to Premier League football. If the coaching is why he's being defended, every player we have would be defended. That is not the case. He is new, young, and came from a different league. He will get the benefit of the doubt for a while. If he continues to perform at this level, I can guarantee that the fans will start to get on his back.
For us, he certainly hasn't been. His progressive passing stats are extremely low.
Yep, I don't think he is that progressive a passer.
What he is though (compared to Fred and McTominay at least) is better technically and smarter in terms of link up play, which we could also do with.
Basically if we're gonna find any halfway point within our current selection of players between a Fred & McTominay midfield or a Fred/McTominay & Pogba midfield (which has way more quality but is suspect in other ways), it can only really come from VDB.
Even if he was only capable of putting in ordinary performances, just being a technically-better-than-McFred and slighty-more-secure-than-Pogba type of ordinary could help us strike a better balance in midfield in a lot of games.
I agree.
however, sometimes, two seemly irrelevant players people don’t think can work well together can form to a surprisingly good partnership,
Cole + Yorke
Rooney + Welbeck
Anderson + cleverly
Rojo + Jones
McFred
So, maybe, Hannibal + VDB or Pereira + VDB can partner together
Have we ever tried Fred + VDB? I only remember VDB + Matic once.
Has anyone ever thought he doesn't play much because he is not very good and that has shown in training?
But everyone else we play in CM isn't very good and proves that fact on matchdays, so the guy deserves a chance if he is even bang average in training.
I tend to think it’s more about we have not figured out or be ready to use a system which we would like to play and can fit him well. I personally think it latter. Unfortunately, we lost Maguire to injury. Otherwise, he probably will be more likely involved.
Actually, he has started to show his change this season. I feel he will get more gametime soon. Fred experienced the same from the beginning. It was not until that Paris night we saw his capabilities when playing to his strength.
This is a very biased assessment. But I do think he will do much better than pogba does in a double-pivot role against most opponents.
He doesn't cover a lot of ground, not at least compared to either Fred or McTominay, and is not the sharpest in terms of defensive positioning. He also is not as creative as Pogba. He's a jack of all trades player who excels at nothing, which is why he has not found a permanent place in the XI.
I agree with your general point about his greater technical ability compared to McFred but I don't think we would be much better off with him over any of the others. If he was more mobile or better in positioning then he would be the perfect option.
I'm clueless with football tactics but I reckon this is how the team should play while in possession. AWB is useless going forward so he might as well just sit back and defend. Sancho and Bruno ping crosses from the right, Shaw from the left for Rashford and Ronaldo in the box. When the ball isn't in a crossing position, Rashford and Bruno occupy the half spaces. Pogba switches play and links defense to attack. Fred runs around and creates a four when the opposition looks to break. The weakness is asking AWB or Fred to ping passes into Sancho and Bruno to initiate attacks on the right. If Pogba is man-marked, Bruno has to drop back and look for the ball, unless someone better on the ball than Fred can play in the deep-lying position.
The question is can Donny play the Fred role in this scenario and ping passes into Bruno or Sancho while performing the dirty work in transition?
Yep, he doesn't have to set the world alight. His basic game would be so useful to us. What he does basically, Scott and Fred just can't do consistently.
Donny is not too dissimilar to Fred, we were all crying for Fred to get a game, he waited patiently and by in large he’s been very important for us, especially last season.
Being angry is fine but it must not be negative like Ole said, don’t come across as a sulk On TV.
Being angry is fine but it must not be negative like Ole said, don’t come across as a sulk On TV.
I’d much rather try Donny in the Pogba role as Pogba can’t play it properly so we may aswell give Donny a chance.
This is simply not true. He played about 1500 minutes in all competitions last season and 150 this season up to now. Fair enough he hasn't had the most continuous run of chances but jesus why do people peddle this myth that he hasn't been given a chance. It's Manchester United. You take whatever chance you can get and be grateful and make the most of it, or if you can't hack it, you can sulk and go, up to him really.
People saying he should leave in January for the sake of his career are weird. I don't care about careers. I don't care if he stays at united peeling oranges and his career as a player finishes tomorrow. I dont really have time for this sentimentality, especially for a player that has been here for one season and contributed pretty much nothing to United. Martial has scored 78 goals for United but I don't see people claiming he has a right to start.
I do think Donny is more of a system player as a lot of people state and I think he would fit in better at teams like City. Saying that, he is here and if our manager isn't at the level of management to provide the system he needs what should we do? Sack the manager to fit VDB in? He isn't that good from what I have seen. He isn't Messi. Also, good players adapt to the opportunities afforded them. At the end of the day, Ole is the manager until he gets sacked (which we all know is in the post at some point).
I hope he gets a start today. I cant see it happening though as we know Ole has his favorites and to be honest Ole can do what he wants. Even though the recent football has been pretty rubbish, we still have 13 points from 6 games and are joint second on points. Not too bad. Enjoy the game people
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He moves the ball quicker with better decision making than McT and Fred. Whats more is both midfielders have had chance after chance even after some terrible performances. But with VdB if he has one stinker it will go down in the history books written in stone and never forgotten.
Donny´s first half against Young Boys vs McTominay´s first (or any) half against Villarreal. I suppose you mean Donny was much better, and if you read the performance tread, for some reason you get to read that he was good, while McTominay was shite. Too me, their performances was very similar, except that McTominay was more accurate in his passing.
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