e-petition to release the govt Hillsborough files

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,982
Location
Occupied Merseyside
What are e-petitions?

e-petitions is an easy way for you to influence government policy in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be eligible for debate in the House of Commons.
 

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,982
Location
Occupied Merseyside
The government has been ordered to make public documents revealing discussions which the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher held about the 1989 Hillsborough stadium disaster, where 96 Liverpool fans were killed and for which the police were later blamed.

The Information Commissioner has now ruled that releasing the files would be in the public interest.

His judgment states that the "specific content of the information in question would add to public knowledge and understanding about the reaction of various parties to that event, including the Government of the day, in the early aftermath".

'Unjustified and excessive'
This is in response to a freedom of information application made by the BBC over two years ago. The Commissioner also strongly criticised the Cabinet Office for its "unjustified and excessive" delays in handling the BBC's request.

The Liverpool supporters were killed in an appalling crush of fans within the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield, where the club was playing an FA Cup semi final. A subsequent inquiry held that the main reason for the overcrowding was the failure of police control.

Mrs Thatcher was briefed about the disaster in the days that followed it, and it was discussed at a number of meetings. The records to be disclosed include reports presented to her, correspondence between her office and that of the Home Secretary Douglas Hurd, and minutes of meetings she attended.

Some campaigners for the families of the victims have suggested that Mrs Thatcher sought to avoid the police being criticised.

'Diminishing case'
The meetings involved include a cabinet meeting. It is unusual for the Commissioner to order the disclosure of cabinet minutes, due to the need to protect the convention of collective responsibility.

The Commissioner argued that due to the reduction of the 30 year rule "there is a diminishing case for withholding information over 20 years old". Gordon Brown as prime minister pledged to reduce the existing 30 year period for making many state documents public, and the coalition government is starting to implement this plan.

In December 2009 the Labour government also set up an independent panel to review the documentation about the Hillsborough tragedy to assess what should now be made public. The Cabinet Office maintained that no material should be disclosed before the panel finishes its work, planned for next year. But the Commissioner discarded this as an irrelevant argument, since the panel had not existed at the time in April 2009 when the BBC's request was made.

The government now has to release the documents or appeal to a tribunal.

The Cabinet Office was recently compelled by the Information Commissioner, Chris Graham, to sign an undertaking to improve the way it handles FOI requests. Mr Graham took action against it because of the frequent severe delays in the Cabinet Office's handling of FOI applications.
 

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,982
Location
Occupied Merseyside
I don't really understand what they are hoping to find out, can someone explain?

What happens if the reason they are keeping the files secret is to protect the victim's families, for example?
As someone whose family have been involved in a campaign for almost 40 years, I'm sure they want one simple thing. The truth.
 

x42bn6

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
18,887
Location
西田麻衣の谷間. Being a nerd, geek and virgin
I don't really understand what they are hoping to find out, can someone explain?

What happens if the reason they are keeping the files secret is to protect the victim's families, for example?
From what? The truth?

The government releases depressing and bad news all the time.

There is genuine interest in this event throughout the UK and it has been nearly 30 years since the event. Any "damage" it may cause by releasing it is unlikely to have any effect because it's so long ago.

Those who have suffered deserve the truth. Hillsborough is no exception.
 

Team Brian GB

Baby Cameron loves X-Factor
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
16,249
Supports
Chelsea
What are e-petitions?

e-petitions is an easy way for you to influence government policy in the UK. You can create an e-petition about anything that the government is responsible for and if it gets at least 100,000 signatures, it will be eligible for debate in the House of Commons.
FOI requests cannot be filed by e-petitions, which this pretty much is.
 

Sassy Colin

Death or the gladioli!
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
71,347
Location
Aliens are in control of my tagline & location
The entire truth. Maybe not being lied but the full details aren't out. The people have a right to know why 96 innocent people died.
So after all this time and all the enquiries, they don't know the cause of the tragedy?

Mrs Thatcher was briefed about the disaster in the days that followed it, and it was discussed at a number of meetings. The records to be disclosed include reports presented to her, correspondence between her office and that of the Home Secretary Douglas Hurd, and minutes of meetings she attended.
Surely they discovered the reasons behind it through investigations that took place well after the event, not from a cabinet briefing shortly thereafter? I still don't see what 'new' information they expect to discover.
 

Stack

Leave Women's Football Alone!!!
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
13,368
Location
Auckland New Zealand
The truth about what, exactly?

What do they feel they are being lied too about?
Ignoring the issue of truth or the feelings of being lied to, its a very important concept to have open and transparent govt. Releasing this sort of information is an important part of having transparent govt.
 

dicko

Full Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2002
Messages
1,838
Location
Sydney, Australia
So after all this time and all the enquiries, they don't know the cause of the tragedy?



Surely they discovered the reasons behind it through investigations that took place well after the event, not from a cabinet briefing shortly thereafter? I still don't see what 'new' information they expect to discover.
Many people suspect the government had a hidden agenda. Football was considered a game of the working class and Thatcher was not a friend of the working class.

It is possible that the Taylor Report and all-seater stadia were more of a solution to hooliganism rather than the Hillsborough tragedy. More imaginative stewarding, further splitting-up of sections of the ground or other ideas MAY have averted a repeat. All seater grounds price many young people out of attending. There is a perception that the government wanted this and pushed it through because "they are only football fans".

The cabinet papers may shed light on this.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,118
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Just let it go will you,

Imagine all those families of the deceased having to keep on being reminded AGAIn, AGAIN, and AGAIN, and again of this tragedy.

Let them live on and move on, It's not easy to be kept reminded on the loss of someone, and blaming / justice / finding won't bring them back.
 

204Red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
2,544
Location
Canada
Just let it go will you,

Imagine all those families of the deceased having to keep on being reminded AGAIn, AGAIN, and AGAIN, and again of this tragedy.

Let them live on and move on, It's not easy to be kept reminded on the loss of someone, and blaming / justice / finding won't bring them back.

That is an interesting take on the idea... and I wonder if it is shared by many Liverpool fans. I mean no disrespect to the families who suffered losses, but when I see the way many still seek "Justice of the 96" I do wonder if they are doing more harm than good to the families of the fallen.

To be sure their 96 will never be forgotten, but continually going back to that horrible day in this manner must still hinder the "moving on process" for families of those who lost loved ones.
 

Sassy Colin

Death or the gladioli!
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
71,347
Location
Aliens are in control of my tagline & location
The families will never forget. They need to come to terms with the loss though. Unanswered questions will hinder this process.
This isn't directed specifically at you, but:

1. What questions, specifically do they feel have not been answered?

2. In what way do they feel that releasing the details of a cabinet briefing will answer those questions, whatever they are?
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,118
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
That is an interesting take on the idea... and I wonder if it is shared by many Liverpool fans. I mean no disrespect to the families who suffered losses, but when I see the way many still seek "Justice of the 96" I do wonder if they are doing more harm than good to the families of the fallen.

To be sure their 96 will never be forgotten, but continually going back to that horrible day in this manner must still hinder the "moving on process" for families of those who lost loved ones.
Common sense. If you (knock on wood) lose someone on a tragedy. Would you want people to knock on your door and start asking on the event again and again and getting it published? Or would you prefer nobody ever mentioned that horrible tragedy again and perhaps movin on.

Would knowing that it's deliberate (let's say that's what's being disclosed) or comes from a negligence or perhaps was their own wrongdoing really bring anything to the families of the deceased?

It's best to just forgotten. You don't feel the pain when you forget
 

SteveJ

all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian
Scout
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
62,851
What is it with modern people? Always this desire to 'move on,' as if any event which doesn't personally involve or affect them is too boring to contemplate. Have some empathy, for Christ's sake. Failing that, at least have the intelligence to realise that speculation about the inner feelings of victims and families is utterly subjective.
 

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,982
Location
Occupied Merseyside
Colin and Sky should either sign the thing or get out of the thread. You're both acting like total idiots.

Neil Fitzmaurice mentioned it on Soccer AM this morning.


This was written by the mother of one of the victims:


MY son, James, was 18-years-old when he died at Hillsborough. The day after the disaster I went to Sheffield to bring his body home and being a mum I took his coat with me because he didn’t like the cold.

I remember saying to someone “put his coat on, I want to take him home,” and I was told he did not belong to me, he belongs to the coroner. In all my screams I said to them “He still belongs to me because no-one’s cut the unbilical cord. He’s mine and he always will be.” That’s why I carry on. As a mother what else could I do?

I brought five children into the world. James was my first born. People say to me I have another four children to carry on for but I did not give birth to four, I gave birth to five. I carry on for the love, for the compassion and for the hurt I still feel for James and I’ve got to do everything in my power to fight for him. I didn’t only lose a son that day. My children also lost a brother.

He did nothing wrong that day. He did everything right but like all other Liverpool supporters he got accused of being drunk and so much else. We’ve got to clear their names. As a mum with so much love for a child I can no longer see, he is still in my heart and always will be.

For 22 years the fans, the survivors and the 96, have been called for everything. The families have gone through hell. We are not fighting for revenge. All we have ever wanted is the truth and accountability.

As a group of bereaved people, the hardcore of the families have been together since day one. Joan Traynor was our treasurer for 20 years before she became ill. She lost two sons. I spoke to Joan on the phone two days before she died and her last words to be were “I hope God spares me just long enough to see the truth for my boys. That’s all I want.” Unfortunately, God didn’t spare her. That is another reason why we must carry on. We also lost Eddie Spearitt recently while Phil Hammond has had his health concerns. The fight is now not just about the 96. It is also about the people we have lost along the way.

We are all old now. We started off having raffles to keep the group going and to keep the momentum going. It worked and it’s tremendous that we’ve all stuck together for this long. We all have different opinions and rightly so but we have stayed united. If it wasn’t for everyone else we would not have got this far. The support we’ve had, not just from Liverpool, has given us the strength to carry on when we have been at our lowest ebb. Even this week an online petition has been signed by more than 50,000 people.

We all want to know why our loved ones died at a football match. James came home five days later in a coffin. I need to know the truth. At the time I probably would’ve hung, drawn and quartered those responsible but that was just anger. I’ve gone beyond that now. I just want the truth. I’ve got to have some peace in my heart and for the rest of my family.

I want someone to show that what The Sun did a couple of days later was a disgrace. I want somebody to print, not for people just in this country to see but for people all around the world, that they did nothing wrong that day and I want the apologies that we’ve never received. They said they had The Truth but they never, they just had lies. That’s why we must have the real truth.
 

Zarlak

my face causes global warming
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
45,407
Location
Truth like rain don't give a feck who it falls on.
He asks a valid point Badunk. You don't just sign something for the sake of it, you want it to be discussed by the government, so he should really get a straightforward answer for what he's asking the government to discuss at his request.

All has been said so far is 'the truth' 'the truth' 'they want the truth' and when asked what the truth is, all that is replied is 'the truth man, the truth'

He has a valid question, are they hoping to uncover a statement from Margaret Thatcher saying 'feck them, they're just football fans' or a report saying that they rigged the area to stage the disaster? What do they want to find out, what is 'the truth' what do they think they have been lied to about. That's all he wants to know, nobody is saying they are wrong, they just want to know what 'the truth' is and what they visualise getting to see if said documents are released.

You can't ask people to sign a petition saying 'I want the government to talk about this' when they don't know what they are even asking them to discuss. A petition should be people who understand what they are petitioning, you can't just ask for 100,000 blind signatures.
 

Dave89

Full Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2007
Messages
17,553
If this information in any way cleared the police and government, we would have had it ages ago.

Signed, but if they are released, there's no way we'll get everything.
 

x42bn6

Full Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
18,887
Location
西田麻衣の谷間. Being a nerd, geek and virgin
Just let it go will you,

Imagine all those families of the deceased having to keep on being reminded AGAIn, AGAIN, and AGAIN, and again of this tragedy.

Let them live on and move on, It's not easy to be kept reminded on the loss of someone, and blaming / justice / finding won't bring them back.
It's actually the families who want the answers, in addition to many others within the UK.

I don't think there's much opposition within Liverpool to having these records released.
 

Badunk

Shares his caf joinday with Dante
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
12,982
Location
Occupied Merseyside
He asks a valid point Badunk. You don't just sign something for the sake of it, you want it to be discussed by the government, so he should really get a straightforward answer for what he's asking the government to discuss at his request.

All has been said so far is 'the truth' 'the truth' 'they want the truth' and when asked what the truth is, all that is replied is 'the truth man, the truth'

He has a valid question, are they hoping to uncover a statement from Margaret Thatcher saying 'feck them, they're just football fans' or a report saying that they rigged the area to stage the disaster? What do they want to find out, what is 'the truth' what do they think they have been lied to about. That's all he wants to know, nobody is saying they are wrong, they just want to know what 'the truth' is and what they visualise getting to see if said documents are released.

You can't ask people to sign a petition saying 'I want the government to talk about this' when they don't know what they are even asking them to discuss. A petition should be people who understand what they are petitioning, you can't just ask for 100,000 blind signatures.
He doesn't have to sign it then.

BBC News - Hillsborough files: Cabinet office appeals against disclosure


I won't go into great detail, coz I don't want to derail his thread, but my granny was blown up in a pub bombing in 1971. The IRA were blamed for it (the media said they were making bombs and one went off). The UVF were the ones who did it. The security forces cleared the way for them. My family has fought for 40 years to clear my granny's name (and those of the other victims). We know who did it. We know they were helped. We know everything. But you need to hear the cnuts who caused the deaths of your loved ones to admit what they did. I'm sure the families of the Hillsborough victims feel the same way. If that's too much for some people to understand, then they are free to ignore the petition and the thread.
 

peterstorey

Specialist In Failure
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
37,293
Location
'It's for the Arsenal and we're going to Wembley'
What is it with modern people? Always this desire to 'move on,' as if any event which doesn't personally involve or affect them is too boring to contemplate. Have some empathy, for Christ's sake. Failing that, at least have the intelligence to realise that speculation about the inner feelings of victims and families is utterly subjective.
It's attention deficit disorder writ large. No one can be bothered to think about anything for more than five minutes.
 

Neutral

BTV
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
11,619
Location
DC/Canberra/Dhaka
Colin and Sky should either sign the thing or get out of the thread. You're both acting like total idiots.

Neil Fitzmaurice mentioned it on Soccer AM this morning.


This was written by the mother of one of the victims:


MY son, James, was 18-years-old when he died at Hillsborough. The day after the disaster I went to Sheffield to bring his body home and being a mum I took his coat with me because he didn’t like the cold.

I remember saying to someone “put his coat on, I want to take him home,” and I was told he did not belong to me, he belongs to the coroner. In all my screams I said to them “He still belongs to me because no-one’s cut the unbilical cord. He’s mine and he always will be.” That’s why I carry on. As a mother what else could I do?

I brought five children into the world. James was my first born. People say to me I have another four children to carry on for but I did not give birth to four, I gave birth to five. I carry on for the love, for the compassion and for the hurt I still feel for James and I’ve got to do everything in my power to fight for him. I didn’t only lose a son that day. My children also lost a brother.

He did nothing wrong that day. He did everything right but like all other Liverpool supporters he got accused of being drunk and so much else. We’ve got to clear their names. As a mum with so much love for a child I can no longer see, he is still in my heart and always will be.

For 22 years the fans, the survivors and the 96, have been called for everything. The families have gone through hell. We are not fighting for revenge. All we have ever wanted is the truth and accountability.

As a group of bereaved people, the hardcore of the families have been together since day one. Joan Traynor was our treasurer for 20 years before she became ill. She lost two sons. I spoke to Joan on the phone two days before she died and her last words to be were “I hope God spares me just long enough to see the truth for my boys. That’s all I want.” Unfortunately, God didn’t spare her. That is another reason why we must carry on. We also lost Eddie Spearitt recently while Phil Hammond has had his health concerns. The fight is now not just about the 96. It is also about the people we have lost along the way.

We are all old now. We started off having raffles to keep the group going and to keep the momentum going. It worked and it’s tremendous that we’ve all stuck together for this long. We all have different opinions and rightly so but we have stayed united. If it wasn’t for everyone else we would not have got this far. The support we’ve had, not just from Liverpool, has given us the strength to carry on when we have been at our lowest ebb. Even this week an online petition has been signed by more than 50,000 people.

We all want to know why our loved ones died at a football match. James came home five days later in a coffin. I need to know the truth. At the time I probably would’ve hung, drawn and quartered those responsible but that was just anger. I’ve gone beyond that now. I just want the truth. I’ve got to have some peace in my heart and for the rest of my family.

I want someone to show that what The Sun did a couple of days later was a disgrace. I want somebody to print, not for people just in this country to see but for people all around the world, that they did nothing wrong that day and I want the apologies that we’ve never received. They said they had The Truth but they never, they just had lies. That’s why we must have the real truth.
Everytime you read something like that...it makes you realize, how horrible it was, and more importantly how the living simply haven't been able to move on.

:(
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,118
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
What is it with modern people? Always this desire to 'move on,' as if any event which doesn't personally involve or affect them is too boring to contemplate. Have some empathy, for Christ's sake. Failing that, at least have the intelligence to realise that speculation about the inner feelings of victims and families is utterly subjective.

1st. Speculation about the inner feelings of victims and families can go both ways, I'm sure some of them agreed with me, better to leave the sad tragedy and move on.

2nd. It's been years, it really is time to move on.

3rd. I'm not from UK, so it doesn't matter anyway. But calling people idiot (badunk) for voicing opinion that's different from you is not the way. That is why it is a petition, not a draft or regulation, people can agree or disagree to sign them. If you don't like me voicing my opinion in your thread, then fine.

Just FYI: i was also victim of the 1998 riot in Indonesia, and I'm not speaking out of my arse when I say many of the victims' families would rather not mentioning about that dark hour, some trying hard to erase it from their memory, some are having severe traumatic syndrome after, some were mentally devastated, not to mention some didn't even make it thru.

So don't tell me about speculation and objectivity
 

SharkyMcShark

Horrified
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
20,832
Location
Using location as a tagline: because I'm just not
There's a lot of condescending bollocks being talked by people in this thread.

What is it with modern people? Always this desire to 'move on,' as if any event which doesn't personally involve or affect them is too boring to contemplate. Have some empathy, for Christ's sake. Failing that, at least have the intelligence to realise that speculation about the inner feelings of victims and families is utterly subjective.
Agree 100%.

Apparently we're capable of deciding that its time for people to move on from a tragedy in the aftermath of which they and their friends and family were blamed for, and continue to be blamed for by ass backwards cretins :rolleyes: