Ed Woodward 2019 - Until all Arctic ice melts edition

[Keefy18]

City have Tixiki Begiristain as a Director of Football, and Arsenal have Raul Sanllehi (They had Sven Mislintat). Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs seems to just have a somewhat working structure in place where it seems the manager still has a lot to be said. We work with a similar structure the only difference is that our CEO has been looking at every possible short sighted option ever since Ferguson left (Both managers and most players). I don't mind Eddy as a CEO, but I would love for a "footballing" man to come in and give us a long term strategy because Ed have proven he isn't capable of doing just that.

And I won't argue that about other clubs. Its the notion that we need a football man as a CEO which is BS!

We've had Fergie involved in recent football decisions and its not exactly gone great either has it? I mean he selected Moyes as his successor! There is also strong rumor he heavily influenced the decision of Ole getting the job temporarily which has led to him being appointed full time.

If I was to blame Ed for anything its definitely the lack of structure, but again that isn't something that just happens overnight either.

Ed didn't appoint Moyes, its a problem he inherited.
Ed appointed LVG who was arguably the best available appointment in the summer of 2014.
Ed appointed Jose which our fan base by an large agreed with, they were singing Jose's name with LVG in charge. Personally I've always felt it was a woeful decision to make and I'd of preferred to stick with LVG for final season to stick with the same ideals at least.

If were to believe or have any hope of recent rumors of former players being interviewed then perhaps he wants to follow a similar structure as Ajax & Bayern but our fan base is so impatient and expects instant success it won't allow these changes either.

 

[Ekeke]

Duncan Castles, in the podcast thats getting linked several places talking about Maddison and Maignan also suggests that Ander was offered a contract with a pay cut, not a pay rise. And thats why he felt insulted and was keen to leave for free. And that De Gea is in a similar situation now where even if his demands are met he might not sign.

He also suggests United have probably the largest scouting network in europe. Great to see thats been so successful

Would be more evidence that Woodward is doing a poor job

 

[1988]

And I won't argue that about other clubs. Its the notion that we need a football man as a CEO which is BS!

We've had Fergie involved in recent football decisions and its not exactly gone great either has it? I mean he selected Moyes as his successor! There is also strong rumor he heavily influenced the decision of Ole getting the job temporarily which has led to him being appointed full time.

If I was to blame Ed for anything its definitely the lack of structure, but again that isn't something that just happens overnight either.

Ed didn't appoint Moyes, its a problem he inherited.
Ed appointed LVG who was arguably the best available appointment in the summer of 2014.
Ed appointed Jose which our fan base by an large agreed with, they were singing Jose's name with LVG in charge. Personally I've always felt it was a woeful decision to make and I'd of preferred to stick with LVG for final season to stick with the same ideals at least.

If were to believe or have any hope of recent rumors of former players being interviewed then perhaps he wants to follow a similar structure as Ajax & Bayern but our fan base is so impatient and expects instant success it won't allow these changes either.

We need a football man 'cus Eddy obviously hasn't got a clue. We need someone to tie the knots and secure that we have a proper footballing structure and a clear vision. He's had seven years to do right. Six of those years we've regressed and stagnated on everything BUT marketing. He doesn't know football and his short sighted decisions has hurt us bad. We are a proper mess because of him. I don't mind him staying as CEO, but I do mind that he interferes with the footballing decision.

 

[UncleBob]

but I do mind that he interferes with the footballing decision.

How has he interfered with the footballing decision ?

 

[Saffron]

Duncan Castles, in the podcast thats getting linked several places talking about Maddison and Maignan also suggests that Ander was offered a contract with a pay cut, not a pay rise. And thats why he felt insulted and was keen to leave for free. And that De Gea is in a similar situation now where even if his demands are met he might not sign.

He also suggests United have probably the largest scouting network in europe. Great to see thats been so successful

Would be more evidence that Woodward is doing a poor job

Like a child he is trying to correct his Sanchez mistake by being overly stingy elsewhere, only making things worse in the long run.

Two wrongs make a right in loony Eddy’s mind.

 

[1988]

How has he interfered with the footballing decision ?

Hired three (are we counting Moyes too? Because then it's four) incredibly different managers. That's pretty much the biggest footballing decision you can make.

Oh and he extended Mourinho contract just to not back him the following window.

 

[UncleBob]

Hired three (are we counting Moyes too? Because then it's four) incredibly different managers. That's pretty much the biggest footballing decision you can make.

Oh and he extended Mourinho contract just to not back him the following window.

But where's the interference.

And I doubt we're counting Moyes.

 

[Saffron]

But where's the interference.

And I doubt we're counting Moyes.

Of course we’re counting Moyes. Since when does a leaving manager get to just pick his successor without question?

That’s exactly what a CEO is for. To put the brakes on stuff like that and not hire some clown to the most important position just because he’s friends with a former employee.

 

[Keefy18]

We need a football man 'cus Eddy obviously hasn't got a clue. We need someone to tie the knots and secure that we have a proper footballing structure and a clear vision. He's had seven years to do right. Six of those years we've regressed and stagnated on everything BUT marketing. He doesn't know football and his short sighted decisions has hurt us bad. We are a proper mess because of him. I don't mind him staying as CEO, but I do mind that he interferes with the footballing decision.

I've no problem in placing blame at his door with regards structure, but the reality is he didn't change structure at the club to what was there previously.

He gave pretty much free reign to his main two appointments in LVG & Jose. They hired their own coaching teams, rolled out their own ideals across the club, especially LVG with working on youth, training facilities and the first team. Jose likewise hired his own head scout in Ribalta who left a year later.

Fact is our managers have been given free reign it seems by and large to work as they see fit bare a few minimal instances.

 

[1988]

But where's the interference.

And I doubt we're counting Moyes.

Appointing said managers thereby interfering in a footballing decision. What I am saying is that Woodward should not be making those calls. He's thinking short sighted in every decision he makes. We need one thinking long term and one who has a clear vision for our approach so we don't end up with three managers with different styles again. What Woodward is doing is hurting.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

At this point you have to question the motivation and reasons for those who are still persistent on defending him. Like seriously ? Do people realize our situation ? 6 seasons, 4 managers, going from bad to worse every year but people defending the one running the football side.

Stockholm syndrome, shills or simple folk? What do you reckon...

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Absurd chain of thought. We have sacked 3 managers since Fergie retired, two of them are known for speaking their minds and both loathe it when players are forced upon them (especially Mourinho), yet none of them have even hinted in the direction that Woodward signed players they didn't want. Mourinho loves to blame others, yet all he's complaining about is that he wasn't backed enough...

The notion that Woodward has been signing players for marketing purposes is fan-made fiction, there's nothing to back it up.

Di Maria being a failure at United is not evidence that the manager didn't want him.

I didn’t say it was a fact. It’s an opinion. #dealwithit

 

[UncleBob]

Of course we’re counting Moyes. Since when does a leaving manager get to just pick his successor without question?

That’s exactly what a CEO is for. To put the brakes on stuff like that and not hire some clown to the most important position just because he’s friends with a former employee.

Gill was still handling things when it was decided that Moyes would be the one to take over from Fergie.

 

[UncleBob]

Appointing said managers thereby interfering in a footballing decision. What I am saying is that Woodward should not be making those calls. He's thinking short sighted in every decision he makes. We need one thinking long term and one who has a clear vision for our approach so we don't end up with three managers with different styles again. What Woodward is doing is hurting.

But it's part of his job, so he's been interfering with himself ?

This is confusing

 

[UncleBob]

I didn’t say it was a fact. It’s an opinion. #dealwithit

Your opinion is based on fan fiction without even a hint of evidence.

#impressive.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Great. So how do you propose "we" get rid of him. Or the Glazers. Or you probably mean both since they kinda are a package deal. Any great idea?
Newsflash: We cant. And I dont want to either. You should be very careful what you ask for: this notion of a Messiah buying the club just out of the love of it, clearing it of debt and pumping in his own money in the club is a unicorn.
There are two realistic options if the Glazers decide to sell: a) another leveraged takeover. A new owner could easily saddle United with new enormous debt compared to now, b) an Arab or Chinese owner with reasons for their purchase of the club that I at least would sincerely object to.
Moan of you want, but without a serious alternative to what we have today its just that: moaning.

Criticism of Woodward and the Glazers is the only method to pressure them to change the way they operate the club. We have fallen from 1st to 6th in the last 6 years. How much further are you willing to fall before you start criticising them!?

Your point (a) The method used to takeover United by the Glazers in 2005 is now regulated against. So won't happen again.
Your point (b) Agreed, I would objecct to being a sportswashed club. That is the only barometer on which the Glazers win Vs other club owners. But that is a very low bar!

 

[UncleBob]

The method used to takeover United by the Glazers in 2005 is now regulated against.

It is ? link ?

 

[Fluctuation0161]

And it's painful to watch. We've been so reactive, without a clear plan on how to get back to winning ways.
I suppose it's necessary to go through such poor spell, hiring and firing managers in order to realize bringing them for the short term quick fix is not going to cut it.
I really hope Ed backs Ole's ideas. Not financially primarily, but stand by his plan on how to revive the team.

I hope that Ole's ideas are clear enough and big enough to help the club, I then hope that Woodward backs him!

Either way the squad needed serious investment last Summer, it needed serious investment January 2019 and it needs even more investment now. That is on Woodward (or the Glazers, depending on who called that decision). We have to trust Ole, his team and the club scouts have the capability - and back them with resources.

 

[el3mel]

Stockholm syndrome, shills or simple folk? What do you reckon...

I guess they don't want to admit they were wrong at defending him and want to persist on it despite all the evidence.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Your opinion is based on fan fiction without even a hint of evidence.

#impressive.

No, it’s based on observation. A lack of evidence doesn’t mean its no true. It only means it can’t be proven. I’m not saying I’m right. I’m saying it’s what I think based on what I’ve seen. You disagree, that’s fine. But this constant need to be right is quiet tedious. Just accept that other people have opinions that differ from yours. Not everything needs to be an argument.

 

[UncleBob]

No, it’s based on observation. A lack of evidence doesn’t mean its no true. It only means it can’t be proven. I’m not saying I’m right. I’m saying it’s what I think based on what I’ve seen. You disagree, that’s fine. But this constant need to be right is quiet tedious. Just accept that other people have opinions that differ from yours. Not everything needs to be an argument.

Your observation is that Di Maria failed, your assumption is that he failed because Van Gaal didn't want him and didn't know how to play him

The lack of evidence + the numerous things pointing in the other direction would clearly suggest it's not true.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, it's unlikely to be an eagle.

Did Gill force Kagawa onto Fergie, because he sure as hell had absolutely no idea where to play him.

 

[Keefy18]

Appointing said managers thereby interfering in a footballing decision. What I am saying is that Woodward should not be making those calls. He's thinking short sighted in every decision he makes. We need one thinking long term and one who has a clear vision for our approach so we don't end up with three managers with different styles again. What Woodward is doing is hurting.

It's his job to appoint the managers?

LVG was the best qualified available manager in 2014.

Jose likewise in 2016.

So he's appointed the best two available options when hiring.

 

[Reddy Rederson]

Your observation is that Di Maria failed, your assumption is that he failed because Van Gaal didn't want him and didn't know how to play him

The lack of evidence + the numerous things pointing in the other direction would clearly suggest it's not true.

If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, it's unlikely to be an eagle.

Did Gill force Kagawa onto Fergie, because he sure as hell had absolutely no idea where to play him.

That wasn’t my assumption at all. That was yours.

 

[Moriarty]

It's his job to appoint the managers?

LVG was the best qualified available manager in 2014.

Jose likewise in 2016.

So he's appointed the best two available options when hiring.

You make it sound like they were the only choices. They might have been the only available candidates, but when has availability mattered to a club as big as United?

 

[Keefy18]

You make it sound like they were the only choices. They might have been the only available candidates, but when has availability mattered to a club as big as United?

Well lets look at it honestly and clearly then shall we?

If a player or manager simply doesn't want to join, then there's nowt you can do. Perfect example being Klopp, he was offered the job as both he and Ferguson admitted as much, he refused it. What would you have the club do? Hound him relentlessly and offer it over and over? There was rumor Poch was offered the job recently too and turned it down. It doesn't matter to some, we are not the attractive club we like to think we are for any number of reasons.

In the summer of 2014 he hired LVG who was arguably the best man available at that time. Jose was at Chelsea a year, Ancelotti at Real a year, Klopp was committed to Dortmund and saw out his contract and turned us down as he's admitted himself and Pep was a year at Bayern and never leaving them at that point.

So, who else was there in the summer of 2014 that was truly worthwhile, had a CV as competent as LVG and coming off a success like a 3rd place finish with the Dutch side?

Fast forward 2 years to 2016, the fans were all but in agreement and demanded Jose. Jose, is only 2nd best to Pep arguably in terms of quality of CV. He'd won a league only 18 months prior with Chelsea so many believed he was the chosen one to bring us back to greatness.

Both LVG & Jose's CV were some of the best in the game. Both financially backed, allowed to pick their own coaching setups and scouts. Remember that LVG completely overhauled the youth setup, training facilities and playing style. Remember the talk of cameras on the training ground? Jose hired his own head of scouting, Ribalta who walked a year later for a role with Zenit.

So his main 2 appointments so far in LVG & Jose had 2 of the best CV's in the game, were best available and financially backed, given free reign with regards structure, playing style, coaches and scouts it seems.

 

[UncleBob]

That wasn’t my assumption at all. That was yours.

"The fact LVG tried to force di Maria into a role he wasn’t suited for, and never had been, I’m going to go with marketing"

 

[Tincanalley]

Thought I would brush up on my urban slang. Today's word is shill.
First I just used Google, also checked with Dictionary.Com

shill
/ʃɪl/

informal•North American

noun: shill; plural noun: shills

1. An accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others. "I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club"
A person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interest. "A megamillionaire who makes more money as a shill for corporate products than he does for playing basketball"

verb
verb: shill; 3rd person present: shills; past tense: shilled; past participle: shilled; gerund or present participle: shilling

1. Act or work as a shill. "Your husband in the crowd could shill for you"

Dictionary.com have a lovely pithy sentence: "A shill is a person who praises or promotes something because they secretly have a personal stake in it".

 

[Reddy Rederson]

"The fact LVG tried to force di Maria into a role he wasn’t suited for, and never had been, I’m going to go with marketing"

yeah? That doesnt say what you assumed. Di maria is a flair player. LVG historically doesnt do flair players. He sets out his squads to do a particular job and nothing else. Something that he was often criticised for while here. So why would a man who doesnt like flair, who insists that each of his players fulfil one role, buy a flair player? I cant think of a single reason.

Di maria failed here because he never wanted to come here. On top of that he had a man barking at him for doing what he does. He couldnt fit into the role LVG wanted, and I dont think LVG would have looked at di maria and thought, yeah thats the guy for me. I cant see him being that dumb. But maybe he is. I dont know. My guess is that once again woodward wanted to show the world that united can attract big names just like he did when he gave rooney that huge contract. I cant prove any of it. Its just an opinion.

Something that is a fact. Di maria ultimately failed here because he was a spoiled little child who downed tools and mopped about instead of doing the best he could for the club. For that he is and always will be a disgrace.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Thought I would brush up on my urban slang. Today's word is shill.
First I just used Google, also checked with Dictionary.Com

shill
/ʃɪl/

informal•North American

noun: shill; plural noun: shills

1. An accomplice of a confidence trickster or swindler who poses as a genuine customer to entice or encourage others. "I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club"
A person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interest. "A megamillionaire who makes more money as a shill for corporate products than he does for playing basketball"

verb
verb: shill; 3rd person present: shills; past tense: shilled; past participle: shilled; gerund or present participle: shilling

1. Act or work as a shill. "Your husband in the crowd could shill for you"

Dictionary.com have a lovely pithy sentence: "A shill is a person who praises or promotes something because they secretly have a personal stake in it".

This site and r/reddevils on Reddit are probably the biggest and most influential discussion boards for United supporters, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was some astroturfing going on from the club trying to control the narrative.

 

[Johan07]

Criticism of Woodward and the Glazers is the only method to pressure them to change the way they operate the club. We have fallen from 1st to 6th in the last 6 years. How much further are you willing to fall before you start criticising them!?

Your point (a) The method used to takeover United by the Glazers in 2005 is now regulated against. So won't happen again.
Your point (b) Agreed, I would objecct to being a sportswashed club. That is the only barometer on which the Glazers win Vs other club owners. But that is a very low bar!

How? By what entity?A leveraged takeover is one of the most common way to acquire a company. Are you saying that its not allowed anymore?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He couldnt fit into the role LVG wanted, and I dont think LVG would have looked at di maria and thought, yeah thats the guy for me.

It's not a matter of conjecture anymore, though, is it?

LVG has said himself that he was fine with Di Maria. He wasn't LVG's first choice but he had rated him for years, and wanted to sign him while at AZ.

He knew exactly what sort of player he was getting, and was fine with it. End of story as far as the pure conspiracy nonsense is concerned.

Woodward no doubt liked the idea of signing a high profile player from Real Madrid - of course he did. But Di Maria wasn't signed for marketing purposes against LVG's judgment, that simply didn't happen unless LVG himself is lying to protect Woodward (for no good reason).

 

[Reddy Rederson]

It's not a matter of conjecture anymore, though, is it?

LVG has said himself that he was fine with Di Maria. He wasn't LVG's first choice but he had rated him for years, and wanted to sign him while at AZ.

He knew exactly what sort of player he was getting, and was fine with it. End of story as far as the pure conspiracy nonsense is concerned.

Woodward no doubt liked the idea of signing a high profile player from Real Madrid - of course he did. But Di Maria wasn't signed for marketing purposes against LVG's judgment, that simply didn't happen unless LVG himself is lying to protect Woodward (for no good reason).

Fair enough. It still doesn’t make sense for the reasons I said, but fair enough.

 

[Johan07]

Of course we’re counting Moyes. Since when does a leaving manager get to just pick his successor without question?

That’s exactly what a CEO is for. To put the brakes on stuff like that and not hire some clown to the most important position just because he’s friends with a former employee.

David Gill was still the CEO during the recrutiment and appointment of Moyes. Woodward took over July 2013. Check your facts.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair enough. It still doesn’t make sense for the reasons I said, but fair enough.

Was a terrible transfer for all sorts of reasons in hindsight.

The fact that he wasn't all that keen on moving to Manchester should've been the end of it, really.

 

[Johan07]

Agreed.

But this doesn't mean that Woodward can't be criticized for presiding over the post-SAF years. He's ultimately responsible for hiring managers whose styles/methods/preferences clashed radically with their predecessors - and generally for what has been a shocking money spent/results ratio.

Absolving Woodward from blame on the football side (because his actual job is to look after the pecuniary interests of the owners/shareholders) borders on the absurd, because there are no other figures at United who can be held responsible. So, either we conclude that United isn't run as a football club anymore (he just hires whoever's available and lets them get on with it until he sacks them for whatever reason), or we conclude that as the one who signs the cheques he is responsible for the football and the results we've witnessed under, to date, four different managers.

To be fair OGS is "just" the third manager that is being installed under Woodward. Moyes was recruited by and appointed under David Gill. Moyes was already at OT when Woodward became CEO.
For some reason Moyes appointment is always being attributed to Woodward no matter how many times one points out that this is just factually incorrect.
Also: The sack of Moyes and appointment of LvG came less than a year into Woodwards reign as CEO and I at least think that he took major advice from Gill, Charlton and Ferguson on that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

To be fair OGS is "just" the third manager that is being installed under Woodward. Moyes was recruited by and appointed under David Gill. Moyes was already at OT when Woodward became CEO.
For some reason Moyes appointment is always being attributed to Woodward no matter how many times one points out that this is just factually incorrect.
Also: The sack of Moyes and appointment of LvG came less than a year into Woodwards reign as CEO and I at least think that he took major advice from Gill, Charlton and Ferguson on that.

Yes, fair enough - Moyes isn't on him unless we're being very harsh.

By which I mean that Woodward was put forward as Gill's successor before the latter actually stepped down formally. He worked with Fergie and would've been a part of the process (or lack thereof, perhaps) which led to Moyes getting the job.

If he'd been super progressive (with balls of steel) he would've said "oy, Frogie - noooo!", but - yeah - it's not something you can realistically expect of anyone under the circumstances.

As for Gill - I dunno. The Moyes business is murky. On the one hand, Moyes didn't fit the bill at all based on the characteristics Gill himself stated they were looking for in Fergie's successor. On the other hand, there was talk about Fergie regarding Moyes as the man to replace him, eventually, well before it actually happened - and well before the "lost in translation" meeting with Guardiola and the alleged contact with others: Klopp (first time), Ancelotti.

Like I said - murky. People with legacies to protect aren't always 100% truthful about past dealings.

 

[Keefy18]

Your point (a) The method used to takeover United by the Glazers in 2005 is now regulated against. So won't happen again.

You've been asked this already, but I'll chime in...where is your evidence for this?

It's not true at all as far as I'm aware. A leveraged buyout is common place in business.

 

[The Irish Connection]

I still can’t believe he stated ‘Manchester United can do things other clubs can only dream of’ to the media shortly after taking over.
It was an incredibly unprofessional and dangerous thing to do and we clearly have suffered in the transfer market because of it.
He should have got the sack for that alone.

 

[crossy1686]

It is ? link ?

Yeah it was banned. You can't put a loan on the club, you need the cash in your bank account if you want to buy now.

 

[lsd]

I still can’t believe he stated ‘Manchester United can do things other clubs can only dream of’ to the media shortly after taking over.
It was an incredibly unprofessional and dangerous thing to do and we clearly have suffered in the transfer market because of it.
He should have got the sack for that alone.

Yes he should have said we aspire to be Man City or we are far behind other clubs and our players are crap