That was my reading of it too. But even so, then generally held principle in these situations is not to allow them to benefit.
El Classico X 4 (1st: Draw, 2nd: Real win, 3rd: Messi wins, 4th: Barca win)
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
The officials are going to get it wrong sometimes. We have to judge them fairly on what they can see, rather than what technology allows us to see. Which is why I think we should have a 'ref cam' giving the perspective from their viewpoint. We'd be so much more respectful of their decisions if that happened (and rightly damning if we see they had a great view, and still got it wrong)
I fundamentally disagree with your stretcher off idea. The law is already an ass on that as it is. I understand the need to try and crack down on cheats, but the flip side is a player is fouled and hurt. The offender stays on the pitch, the victim has to go off (under your rule for 10 minutes if badly hurt yet able to continue) and miss some of the game before coming back on. Utterly ridiculous
Is there a consensus that the absolute minimum Madrid were entitled to was a free-kick for the initial foul on Ronaldo.. I can't see it being anything else.
So, was Mourinho not even at the game at all, not even in the stands?
Match report says he was absent but they usually state whether he was watching from the stands or whatever...
Match report says he was absent but they usually state whether he was watching from the stands or whatever...
I think with the "foul" on Mascherano being directly caused by Pique's push/block, the rules are fairly unclear, but it doesn't feel right to prevent a Madrid advantage.
If Pique had directly tripped Mascherano, obviously it would still have been advantage. But by pushing Ronaldo into Mascherano, he prevent's the advantage?
Also there remains the issue of whether being pushed into another player and toppling them can really count as a foul. I understand that it's a difficult area. We don't want players deliberately tripping over to take out an opponent and claiming it is accidental. But giving the freekick to Barca was a poor decision and calling it back for a Real freekick would still have felt unfair.
I do agree with your point, but it could be argued that if someone is badly injured and is carried off a stretcher, then he'd be subbed off by the manager as a precaution or simply because he's unable to carry on playing with the injury.
That would mean that a player that's feigning injury is punishing himself by taking himself out of the game if the manager chooses to sub him off, if the manager feels that playing with ten men for ten minutes would be too unfavourable for his side.
Your ref cam idea is a damn good one, if I haven't said that before.
The ref was more or less in a perfect position only a few yards behind Piqué/Ronaldo.
I agree with you regarding your general point.
I have to agree with those arguing that the Higuain goal should have been allowed. Whatever the referee thought that he saw -- and he made a number of very strange decisions during the game, not including the second yellow cards that could have been awarded -- Ronaldo was definitely fouled, in my opinion, and it is inconceivable that the momentum that eventually felled Mascherano was in any way deliberate.
Therefore, I can see no justification for either calling the play back for the foul on Ronaldo, and certainly not for a foul on Mascherano. If Pique had slid in and taken out Mascherano himself, then that obviously would not have been a foul. But in terms of causality, there is very little difference between that and what actually happened. By any reasonable definition, if you accept that Pique fouled Ronaldo and that Ronaldo did not deliberately fall on to Mascherano's heel, then Pique effectively caused Ronaldo to fall on to Mascherano's heel.
It could be argued that such a scenario is so rare that the referee is probably wise to stop the play and award a free-kick to Real Madrid, but that would still mean punishing Real Madrid for something that was entirely caused by a Barcelona player.
There were several other incidents during the game where Ronaldo had been fouled, in my opinion, and it appeared that the referee was allowing an advantage. But when Ronaldo lost the ball almost immediately because there were several Barcelona players surrounding him, rather than call the play back and award the freekick to Real Madrid, the referee instead allowed Barcelona to counter-attack.
That may have been an example of Ronaldo's 'reputation proceeding him' -- which is a rather disingenuous way of saying that it's acceptable to punish people in the present for 'crimes' done in the past -- but it was all the more odd as numerous Barcelona players are well known for going to ground almost as soon as anyone breathes on them, and they were invariably awarded a freekick for even the most minimal contact (and none at all on several occasions).
Therefore, I can see no justification for either calling the play back for the foul on Ronaldo, and certainly not for a foul on Mascherano. If Pique had slid in and taken out Mascherano himself, then that obviously would not have been a foul. But in terms of causality, there is very little difference between that and what actually happened. By any reasonable definition, if you accept that Pique fouled Ronaldo and that Ronaldo did not deliberately fall on to Mascherano's heel, then Pique effectively caused Ronaldo to fall on to Mascherano's heel.
It could be argued that such a scenario is so rare that the referee is probably wise to stop the play and award a free-kick to Real Madrid, but that would still mean punishing Real Madrid for something that was entirely caused by a Barcelona player.
There were several other incidents during the game where Ronaldo had been fouled, in my opinion, and it appeared that the referee was allowing an advantage. But when Ronaldo lost the ball almost immediately because there were several Barcelona players surrounding him, rather than call the play back and award the freekick to Real Madrid, the referee instead allowed Barcelona to counter-attack.
That may have been an example of Ronaldo's 'reputation proceeding him' -- which is a rather disingenuous way of saying that it's acceptable to punish people in the present for 'crimes' done in the past -- but it was all the more odd as numerous Barcelona players are well known for going to ground almost as soon as anyone breathes on them, and they were invariably awarded a freekick for even the most minimal contact (and none at all on several occasions).
Wrong - he dived when he thought he'd pushed the ball too far ahead. What later transpired was that it turned out to be a perfect pass for Higuain. Moral? Don't chuck yourself over.
It was only a perfect pass for Higuain because Mascherano got tripped. Mascherano was getting to the ball.
There was no way that goal should've stood. It is a vague one because the trip wasn't intentional so it isn't necessarily a foul.
To come to that conclusion you would have to choose to ignore Pique's body charge on Ronaldo.
I've been hit harder by girls running to the cosmetic counter in Selfridges.
You've never been hit hard enough.
You must be imagining things again, girls don't run in Selfridges.
The gif on the page before this one suggests that you are making things up.
Why does his right foot collapse?
I have no doubt Mascherano went down because he knew he was never ever going to get the ball. That was crooked gamesmanship from him and he got away with it.
I agree with this.
It wasn't so much of a push.
And there was a push which was very hard on Messi by Diarra just few mins before that the ref didn't give.
Anyway it was a huge improvement from the first leg. Real Madrid tried to play some football.
The ref's decision to award a freekick over a foul on Puyol from Di Maria was a bad decision also, it was never a foul and Madrid were in a great position that time.
Did you not read the previous posts? (and/or are you not aware of the rules)
There's no need for a foul to be intentional for a ref to give a free-kick.
I wasn't talking about Vidic
Cristiano Ronaldo did have something to add, however.
"Next year they might as well give the cup directly to Barcelona," said the forward, a losing finalist to Barca in 2009.
"It was Mission Impossible 4."
"Next year they might as well give the cup directly to Barcelona," said the forward, a losing finalist to Barca in 2009.
"It was Mission Impossible 4."
You are a smart little fella Pogue.
You have avoided the main point the whole discussion and continue to focus on what's happened after Pique´s body-check. What's happened to Mascherano is irrelevant. Either it's free kick (and a yellow to Pique) to Ronaldo or it's a goal. Simple.
Btw. Mascherano's play acting is disgusting and that incident alone tells me what I need to know about this Barcelona team. Talented world class players but boy it's easy to dislike their antics. Shameful attitude.
I'm sure this has been mentioned but I don't care if Kaka did have a good game against Valencia, the Kaka of today should not be starting ahead of Ozil...NEVER.
There are lots of reasons Real came up short, some of the critical ones out of their hands...the ref...having to play against an International Select Diving XI etc etc...but Mourinho has to take his share of the blame too.
Aside from Kaka, is Benzema dead? I don't care what kind of form he is in....he has to play. Adebayor is no longer a football player. It's almost like he wanted to grapple with people instead of play football. Yet Mourinho played him ahead of Benzema...I know people will say it was to give them a target man or someone to lead the line...
But all he did was
-stray offsides
-hit people with his hands
One last point...4 matches in 18 days...
Madrid - 1 win, 2 draws and only the one loss against Barca. But what a crucial loss it was....
There are lots of reasons Real came up short, some of the critical ones out of their hands...the ref...having to play against an International Select Diving XI etc etc...but Mourinho has to take his share of the blame too.
Aside from Kaka, is Benzema dead? I don't care what kind of form he is in....he has to play. Adebayor is no longer a football player. It's almost like he wanted to grapple with people instead of play football. Yet Mourinho played him ahead of Benzema...I know people will say it was to give them a target man or someone to lead the line...
But all he did was
-stray offsides
-hit people with his hands
One last point...4 matches in 18 days...
Madrid - 1 win, 2 draws and only the one loss against Barca. But what a crucial loss it was....
I see Pogue the Barca fanboi was out in full force here yet again.
Jose watching the match last night.
Er... What?
The key decision for the referee was whether or not Ronaldo was fouled. If he was, then it's a free-kick to Madrid. If he wasn't fouled - and either over-balanced or dived - then it's a free-kick to Barcelona (which is what happened).
Either way, Higuain's goal never should have stood, which is why the uproar over what happened is more than a bit over the top.
Was wondering about that myself. Didn't he hit some sort of hot goal-scoring streak over the last few weeks?I'm sure this has been mentioned but I don't care if Kaka did have a good game against Valencia, the Kaka of today should not be starting ahead of Ozil...NEVER.
There are lots of reasons Real came up short, some of the critical ones out of their hands...the ref...having to play against an International Select Diving XI etc etc...but Mourinho has to take his share of the blame too.
Aside from Kaka, is Benzema dead? I don't care what kind of form he is in....he has to play. Adebayor is no longer a football player. It's almost like he wanted to grapple with people instead of play football. Yet Mourinho played him ahead of Benzema...I know people will say it was to give them a target man or someone to lead the line...
But all he did was
-stray offsides
-hit people with his hands
One last point...4 matches in 18 days...
Madrid - 1 win, 2 draws and only the one loss against Barca. But what a crucial loss it was....
Must have been injured, surely? If not, it was absolutely criminal to allow that useless dork Adebayor on the pitch ahead of him.
Andy Gray disagrees with you, the cnut! Of course, you know better than he does.
Finally saw the GIF that has you guys arguing.
To me it seems Pique fouls Ronaldo so I can't see why the referee would give Barca a free kick. Isn't it Pique's fault that his own player Mascherano got fouled (dived) ?
I mean if I'm in my penalty box and I shove the guy on the ball who during his fall touches a team mate of mine who spastically over reacts as if he's been shot, I claim a free kick for my team? Surely in that case there would be a penalty against my team, no? Or the referee waves play on whichever suits the attacking team.
To me it seems Pique fouls Ronaldo so I can't see why the referee would give Barca a free kick. Isn't it Pique's fault that his own player Mascherano got fouled (dived) ?
I mean if I'm in my penalty box and I shove the guy on the ball who during his fall touches a team mate of mine who spastically over reacts as if he's been shot, I claim a free kick for my team? Surely in that case there would be a penalty against my team, no? Or the referee waves play on whichever suits the attacking team.
There are three possibilities:
1) Ronaldo wasn't fouled and then fouled Mascherano. Free kick Barca (this was the refs view and mine).
2) Ronaldo was fouled and advantage played. He then fouls Mascherano. Free kick Barca.
3) Ronaldo was fouled and free kick RM.
None of them result in a goal for RM.
1) Ronaldo wasn't fouled and then fouled Mascherano. Free kick Barca (this was the refs view and mine).
2) Ronaldo was fouled and advantage played. He then fouls Mascherano. Free kick Barca.
3) Ronaldo was fouled and free kick RM.
None of them result in a goal for RM.
Mascherano firstly wasn't fouled, that was a dive.
But even if he was, it was his own players fault who rammed into Ronaldo.
So play advantage. And if there is none to the attacker then pull back play for a foul.
No.
That would be a free-kick against you for pushing the opposing player over.
If, however, he dived or over-balanced then yes, it's a free-kick for the bloke he falls on top of.
This whole incident really isn't as complicated as some of you are making out.
This is actually good to discuss. It helps clarify the rules. Forget the incident it's interesting to know what the rules are regarding these matters.
But If I take out an attacker and because of my taking out that attacker my team mate (defender) is impeded, isn't it my fault? And shouldn't the referee give a free kick to the attacking team or let play go on, which ever suits the attacking team better?
As I said, chuck this incident, I really don't want to make calls based on one gif. I'd have to see things such as the contact between Ronaldo and Mascherano more closely and whether it was an intentional thing by Ronaldo or nothing at all, to come to a proper conclusion.
are we talking football or dominos
Mascherano dived like Jacques Cousteau #simples
Mascherano dived like Jacques Cousteau #simples
Makes no difference whether it was intentional or not.