Maybe Saka has had his turned by Nigeria. We‘ll know more tomorrow if he’s in the u21 squad or not.
England - Nations League - Iceland 05.09 - Denmark 08.09 - Squad announced
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Pretty disappointing squad.
Absolutely feck all creativity in midfield, bar Foden who's not ready to be that just yet.
Ward-prowse and winks has to be a wind up, I can't believe they've got in over Grealish. I rate taking a chance in Phillips, weve not had a proper DM in a while - I'm not convinced by Rice still.
The forwards are over stocked, no need for Kane, Abraham and Ings - Kane isn't getting dropped, so a complete waste of squad space. I don't think Abraham deserves his spot. Nice for greenwood to get a call up though.
No recognised LB.
Overall a really unbalanced squad IMO. Picks his favourites rather than a proper squad to create a team.
Ward-prowse and winks has to be a wind up, I can't believe they've got in over Grealish. I rate taking a chance in Phillips, weve not had a proper DM in a while - I'm not convinced by Rice still.
The forwards are over stocked, no need for Kane, Abraham and Ings - Kane isn't getting dropped, so a complete waste of squad space. I don't think Abraham deserves his spot. Nice for greenwood to get a call up though.
No recognised LB.
Overall a really unbalanced squad IMO. Picks his favourites rather than a proper squad to create a team.
Southgate really stupidly walked into one by naming Maguire in the squad, not a good look and even worse now they've been forced to pull him.
This is extremely ignorant and ignores the diversity in ethnic makeup of both countries. What does looking Chinese or Nigerian even mean? Do Igbo people and Fula look the same? They're both Nigerian. Hell, there are Fula people native to other countries. Can you tell from looking at one of they're from Nigeria or Guinea? Or if a person is Chinese or Taiwanese? If Saka identifies as English then he is English, he already qualifies via nationality and birth.
Just a weird squad selection all round. As pointed out having no Saka or Grealish is just insulting.
Choosing Phillips is fair enough, so why not Ben White too? The CBs he's picked are never going to be good enough so start looking to the future, no Holgate either but is that because of injury? I thought he was impressive the second half of the season.
Choosing Phillips is fair enough, so why not Ben White too? The CBs he's picked are never going to be good enough so start looking to the future, no Holgate either but is that because of injury? I thought he was impressive the second half of the season.
I’ve already said Sama ultimately has choice of identification.
And he, obviously, looks more Nigerian than he ‘looks’ English - however 2020 anyone wants to be about it. As for the other nuances within Nigeria - that is another conversation and one I need no education on, nor one that, in the slightest, leads to any confusion between him ‘looking’ Nigerian and ‘looking’ English.
Point is, you can't look like a nationality. Unless you're about that ethnostate business in which case I'll leave you to it.
Well you can’t in 2020, because you can’t say anything at all now. Prior to that though, people can, do, and are told everyday that they look like they are from somewhere. It often forms the basis of an educated guess of where someone is from, and Saka’s look forms a large part of why people would be far more likely to guess that he is from Nigeria than him being from India.
You can’t look like a citizenship or whatever - an accent would be a far better indicator in that case. Point is, Saka LOOKS like a Yoruba Nigerian to me, because I’ve been there, lived there, and am familiar with enough of them to know what they look like. If I saw Saka in California, I would think that this man looks Nigerian. Of course, having not heard him speak or been familiar with his story, I wouldn’t possibly assume that he was born there or has a passport if I met him in California - but I wouldn’t look at him and think ‘he looks like an Englishman’. And it isn’t just a black and white thing. Cristiano Ronaldo is white and doesn’t ‘look like’ and Englishman. For all I know he could have been born in Newham General.
Anyway, we have digressed so much in this thread. Ultimately, Saka can of course play for England, as he qualifies to, and if he feels English, then fair play to him. I just don’t like the ‘he is not Nigerian’ declaration so much, I don’t agree with it. I think it’s very ignorant of western states and not appreciative of the reason why people leave their countries of origin in the first place to just not acknowledge their backgrounds and simply say ‘anyone in England is English’. Think it’s a little more nuanced, and often, while these people are happy to integrate with society- they don’t actually even want to just be generalised as English people. I think at least dual nationals, personally.
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He also mentioned that England don't play anyone in the no.10 position which does make sense.
On the LB question, he said that Chilwell and Shaw are injured and Saka has played in more attacking positions (midfield and as a wide forward), so it seems he doesn't consider him a left back. He then mentioned how Rose needs to improve his form. Not seen any mention of the likes of Bertrand, Young or Williams, so imagine he probably just doesn't rate them.
Crazy decision when England are severely lacking quality in the middle. I’d understand it more if they could afford to be picky there but they can’t right now.
Have a cup of tea, talk about the weather and look forward to your fish and chips while you watch Bake Off tonight. You're one of us.
Well he's in the U21 squad so looks as though his exclusion is probably due to the same reason as Grealish.
Indeed. I thought as much. I'd expect England is his first choice like most of the lads that come through the system.
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Young and exciting team.
That's interesting. I'd have thought the next stage in England's evolution since the World Cup was to be able to control games through the centre of the park, which was one of their shortcomings in Russia. And to do that they need a bit more quality on the ball there than what they've used to date. And while Grealish has his own weaknesses in a central role, I'd have thought these games would have been good opportunities to iron them out.
I don’t agree with no Grealish but I do understand the point Southgate is making.
Grealish is not the same player when he plays a8. His best performances at a high level come with him as a #10 or LW. England play 433 now so the #10 role isn’t available. It’s the same mistake Southgate made with Dele Ali and thinking he can play in midfield.
It’s why I never understood when people were saying Grealish should be Pogba’s replacement a few months ago. They play completely different roles.
Grealish is not the same player when he plays a8. His best performances at a high level come with him as a #10 or LW. England play 433 now so the #10 role isn’t available. It’s the same mistake Southgate made with Dele Ali and thinking he can play in midfield.
It’s why I never understood when people were saying Grealish should be Pogba’s replacement a few months ago. They play completely different roles.
If that's the case then Alli's career should be over isn't it, as long as England stick to 4-3-3.
Yeah, he looks technically very good player, someone who might be useful to retain possession when needed.
Why are we playing this tournament consider Corona/extended season, shortened break.
Is it not?
It's not over. Previously Southgate set up to accomodate him. He's going to have to hit some serious form for that to happen again. The next manager might favour him though.
There’s definitely a bit of Bulldog spirit in me I can’t argue!Have a cup of tea, talk about the weather and look forward to your fish and chips while you watch Bake Off tonight. You're one of us.
How did he set up to accommodate him by playing him as a #8? Accommodating him would have been playing as a #10 behind Kane. Ali isn’t good enough to have a system set up for him though.
We played 3-5-2 in the World Cup. Alli had a raumdeuter type role in it. He's not really a 10. He can't play as an #8 in a 4-3-3 because it's a very different role.
His a support striker/attacking midfielder in my opinion. He can play as a 8, like I’m sure Grealish can but you won’t see the best from him in that role. His midfield play isn’t great but his good in and around the box.
We don't have any good U21 english players coming through?
Do you think Chinese people look a lot different from Japanese people?
I’m not qualified enough to tell the difference. I imagine that Chinese people and Japanese people are though, and would gladly point it out for you if you are interested. I do think Chinese people look a lot different to English people though, and will say that with a lot more confidence.
What is the purpose of your question? To imply that the physical differences between Nigerian and English people are too subtle to discern or something?
Is this a rhetorical question?
England never learn really.
Any team who's made a final in last 10 years has a tempo/dictating player in centre of the park. Spain with Xavi/Iniesta, Germany with Kroos/Bastian, Portgual with Moutinho, Italy with Pirlo and Croatia with Modric and Rakitic. Not much pace or power there but they all know how to control the rhythm of the game.
England just go for pace and athleticism all the time. Of course you need that aswell but so often England come up against a team that drops deep and defends with discipline and they have little answer how to break them down in open play. Croatia in second half in World cup SF was a great example.
Considering the majortity of goals in last world cup came from penalties and set pieces you'd think Grealish winning above average number of free kicks in a game would get him in the squad alone.
England wasted the last 12 months building a more ball playing CM. IMO midfield should be Henderson/Rice- Foden (who's a generational talent)-Grealish.
I think the point is that the argument that someone who (theoretically) was born in this country, has lived their whole life here, and has never been to Nigeria, should not be considered English, is deeply harmful. Both to the individual in question, their rights and responsibilities, and to the wider integration of the children of immigrants into British society.
I think you made the point best, that it should be up the individual in question what nationality they believe they want to represent. Saka was born here, has lived his whole life in England, and represented the country at basically every age level. Of course he's English. He's also Nigerian, and it's up to him which country he'll play for.
Nah, just curious. Apart from Greenwood, why don't we have any representatives in U21?
The only issue is that you might struggle to have both Foden and Grealish in the side, and to let TAA roam forward. Most top-teams now have 5 players who are the key attackers, and 5 who are more defensive (or, I'm thinking of City and Liverpool here in particular).
But either way, the lesson learned from 2018 was that we need more control in midfield, and players who are comfortable on the ball and able to slow down the tempo of a game. Grealish would be perfect for that role, and is one of our best attacking players anyway. It's ridiculous that he's not in the squad, I've no idea what Southgate is thinking.
I do. He’s not a good manager is why.
Not to take the thread too far off topic, but as others have said, that's entirely down to the individual. My parents are Pakistani (I do also have some Kenyan heritage but for the sake of this argument it's easier to ignore that) and I was actually born there myself whilst my parents were visiting family. But I've lived my whole life in the UK and consider this to be my home. I don't really see myself as British but equally I don't see myself as Pakistani, and I'd find it weird if someone else were to see me as such.
I've often thought children of immigrants are in a third category of their own, where they have bits of their parents' culture and bits of the culture of the country they've grown up in. I think it's a bit too simplistic to ask them to choose to be one or the other.
Below that age group we do. Jimmy Garner, Ethan Laird, Teden Mengi and Shola Shoretire are the lads most involved with England. Brandon Williams has been playing for the u20s recently. There are no age group games underneath the 21s in this break, though there are in October.
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I agree with this. As I’ve said, they can say themselves how they would like to identify. My main issue of contention has always been an almost arrogant and insensitive, very simplistic ‘stripping’ people of their heritage with this sledgehammer ‘well, he’s born in England, so he’s English’. As we know, for most of us, the circumstances of us being born in England is due to search of a better life, but that doesn’t mean that because we seek better lives, education or whatever that people have the right to denounce where we come from.
I live in London, and it takes literally 5 seconds to look at people from Indian, Pakistani, Israeli, Somali backgrounds and more to see that they don’t all just describe themselves as ‘English’. They know where they come from, and I’m against this almost laziness to explore and understand where each other come from and just say ‘That boy Bukayo is born in Ealing, he’s English’. It’s dismissive.
It’s like some sort of haste to turn UK into USA, where most black people there don’t even know where they are from, they have been stripped of their identity and are just acknowledged as ‘African American’. Thankfully, people in the UK tend to know where they come from, and not all of us want our identities just changed to ‘English’. I can guarantee that Saka has been asked ‘what country are you from?’ countless times in his life.
Grealish is far from being a tempo dictating midfielder. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him control a game at PL level. He impacts games but never controls it.
I thought he did that well against Arsenal at the end of the season. Or at the very least, in a team of cloggers, he could keep the ball, slow down the game, escape from pressure to create space and ease the pressure on his defence. Again, everything that we failed to do against Croatia in 2018.
Agree that he's not a player who would control the tempo of a game by himself, but he has a number of skills that would help in that department.