England - Nations League - Iceland 05.09 - Denmark 08.09 - Squad announced

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
Saka has all the evidence he needs to come home and declare for Nigeria. Literally every single senior left-back is injured, not one left-back in the squad - yet he’s overlooked, while his agemates have made the squad. He’s been as good as any young player this season.

Come to the Eagles, the Lions will never love you like we will!

Come home? He's from Ealing.

Get your own players!
 

Annihilate Now!

...or later, I'm not fussy
Scout
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Messages
38,967
Location
W.Yorks
No Saka is very weird considering all the other young call-ups... has he been playing on the wing more then left-back for Arsenal or something?
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
No Saka is very weird considering all the other young call-ups... has he been playing on the wing more then left-back for Arsenal or something?
He's not been playing at all for Arsenal. Was dropped towards the end of the season.
 
Joined
Jan 8, 2017
Messages
2,016
What a mess of a squad.

1. Michael Keane still somehow getting selected for England. Tarkowski, Dunk, Holgate and Basham are all more deserving to name a few. All of those deserve it over Mings as well. I understand at this point there's nothing Smalling can do to get in because of his ability on the ball

2. Three right backs and not a single left back?? What is Southgate playing at. I get Chilwell and Shaw are injured but Targett, Bertrand or Saka could have all merited a callup.

3. No Grealish, really?? Southgate must have a vendetta against him to not have him in over Mount, Ward-Prowse, or Foden. He created the second most chances in the league ffs, not sure if he'll ever get a callup under Southgate at this point. Even if he considers him a winger, put him in over Abraham who's been terrible the second half of the season. There are two pure strikers outside of him, as well as Rashford and Greenwood who can play there. Surely Grealish's versatility should be working in his favor here.
 

FootballHQ

Full Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
11,583
Supports
Aston Villa
And Keane too :lol: blimey
Poor generation of English CBs really when you look at what was available in 90s and especially 2000s. Maguire-Gomez will be first choice combo and isn't too bad but beyond that is mid table CBs who'll be exposed by world class forwards in later stages of tournaments.
 

Classical Mechanic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
29,403
Location
xG Zombie Nation
What a mess of a squad.

1. Michael Keane still somehow getting selected for England. Tarkowski, Dunk, Holgate and Basham are all more deserving to name a few. All of those deserve it over Mings as well. I understand at this point there's nothing Smalling can do to get in because of his ability on the ball
If he'd called up any of them there'd be a chorus of people calling them shite and undeserving too.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
If a Nigerian man and a Nigerian woman have a baby, what country would that baby be from?
No idea. What country is the baby born in?

The baby would have Nigerian parents, that's for sure.
 

Lee565

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Messages
1,677
It's pretty sad that so many supposed english fans on Twitter have been putting their club loyalties ahead of what's best for the england team and demanding Maguire to not be in the england side out of spite of who he plays for at club, if he was playing in any other league outside of England you wouldn't have English supporting man city, arsenal, chelsea, liverpool etc.. fans calling for him to be booted out of the england team, hell I have even pathetically seen english rival supporting fans claim he shouldn't be in the squad based on his ability when their is no debate he is the best centre back England currently have.
 

Snow

Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Messages
31,899
Location
Lousy Smarch weather
Raheem has taken a test and is negative.
Still has to be quarantined and take a test again if proper protocals are being followed. In Iceland we had a player come back from the US after the country opened up again. She took a test and was negative, then played a match 3 days later and day after the match she tested positive for the virus.
 

Blades1889

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2019
Messages
799
Supports
Sheffield United
Going against everything Southgate said regarding favoritism and choosing players on form.
Didn’t he say he wouldn’t pick players from the championship too? Phillips is yet to prove himself in the PL. I’m not 100% on what he actually said though, I think it was in relation to potentially calling Grealish up a couple of years ago.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
17,667
Location
Scotland
Supports
Everton
Tbf Keane had a strong end to the season and this isn't exactly an era where we are blessed in terms of centre-backs. He is very limited at what he does but he does those limited things very well. He shouldn't be starting for England but I understand why he's been picked. I like Basham a lot but he's 32 and doesn't fit with what Southgate has been doing so far which is have a mix of experienced older players with younger players. I don't actually think he's picked a brand new player to the England squad that is over the age of 30 before - if he has it's been limited whereas under previous managers you'd regularly have shite like Rickie Lambert called up (not saying Basham is in that bracket, he's better).
 

kidbob

Full Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
5,148
Location
Ireland
Can Grealish still decide to play for Ireland? He hasn't been capped yet has he? Unlikely of course but is it still a possibility? I feel for the lad because in my mind he's bee better than those picked ahead of him. Hope that Southgate gives him his chance soon.
 

saivet

Full Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
18,247
No Saka is very weird considering all the other young call-ups... has he been playing on the wing more then left-back for Arsenal or something?
Since Tierney has been fit he's played out wide and a couple of time in midfield.
 

RashyForPM

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
1,147
And Keane too :lol: blimey
Dier too :lol: Laughable choices. I can think of so many defenders who I’d rather have in the squad. Off the top of my head, I’d prefer your boys O’Connell and Basham, White, Dunk, Coady, Mee, Tarkowski, Stones, Smalling and possibly even Tanganga as a squad option who can develop into a first choice CB 5 years down the line.

Each of those guys bar Stones and Tanganga had good seasons unlike Mings (he did not), Keane and Dier, and are better defenders. Another typical England manager, Southgate.
 

JulesWinnfield

West Brom Fan
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,440
Doesn't exactly take a genius to work out why Sheffield United's centre backs who aside from otherwise being extremely average all their career, play in an extremely specific formation that is very unlike how England play aren't definites for the England side.

Outside Maguire and Gomez who are clearly the best centre backs England have they're all a much of muchness. Ben Mee isn't any better than Keane for example, he just plays in the same extremely favourable system that Keane excelled in before as well. See also Tarkowski. For Coady see Sheffield United's defenders. For Ben White see Tyrone Mings who people were saying is easily good enough for England defence based on his championship performances, but is now apparently shite now that he made the squad.
 

DixieDean

Everton Fan
Joined
Mar 10, 2011
Messages
3,182
Location
Liverpool
Supports
Everton
If I was the England coach I would be locking down players who other countries want to play for them. But that's just me.
 

Blades1889

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2019
Messages
799
Supports
Sheffield United
Dier too :lol: Laughable choices. I can think of so many defenders who I’d rather have in the squad. Off the top of my head, I’d prefer your boys O’Connell and Basham, White, Dunk, Coady, Mee, Tarkowski, Stones, Smalling and possibly even Tanganga as a squad option who can develop into a first choice CB 5 years down the line.

Each of those guys bar Stones and Tanganga had good seasons unlike Mings (he did not), Keane and Dier, and are better defenders. Another typical England manager, Southgate.
It’s just crazy. Obviously I’d love to see one of ours in there but unless they are sold I doubt they will get a look in. If they are to use 3 at the back again Coady and O’Connell are perfect for it.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
20,895
Think some are being hysterical, it's not normal times and some of his selections probably reflect conversations with players/clubs.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,084
Location
...
My parents are both South African, but i'm very much from England (... and I am a bit South African)
No idea. What country is the baby born in?

The baby would have Nigerian parents, that's for sure.
I guess this is one of those never-ending debates, and I’m very familiar with both sides I guess. The way I see it, two French people can’t give birth to a Mexican kid. Their kid is French.

I was once on a flight from Lagos to London which had to make an emergency landing in Spain because a lady went into labour. So by some definitions, she now has a Spanish child. I don’t agree with it personally. People are born in various places for various reasons. Prince William would be who he is and heir to the throne whether he has ever stepped foot in Great Britain his entire life and couldn’t speak a word of English.

And I think it is also worthwhile to not be in such a hurry to remove people’s heritage based on where they are born too. As we know, this world has a lot of ugliness in its history, and present day for that matter, and migration in order to obtain what may seem for some as basic necessities isn’t necessarily migration by choice in the simplest of terms. Africa has been long oppressed and under-developed, and as a result, many Africans move abroad in search of a ‘better life’. To now just ‘brand’ all of them as ‘English’ once they get there doesn’t seem right to me. Of course, citizenship is another matter. But an individual could obtain citizenship from 10 different countries over the course of a lifetime. I see Saka as more ‘British’ than ‘English’ personally.

I may well be speaking for myself to a large extent so I will try to avoid being too definitive. I guess the fairest way is to say it by how you ‘feel’ (which seems the qualifying criteria for just about everything else!). I’m of a similar background to Saka, in being born and raised in London but to Nigerian parents, but I absolutely don’t identify as ‘English’. I have both passports, but I see myself as Nigerian, personally. Perhaps Saka doesn’t. I wouldn’t begrudge him of course if he wanted to play for England, but have always slightly resented the ‘of course he should play for England - he’s English’ spin on things. He’s here for free healthcare and education. Otherwise his Nigerian parents would never leave Nigeria in the first place.
 

JulesWinnfield

West Brom Fan
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,440
I guess this is one of those never-ending debates, and I’m very familiar with both sides I guess. The way I see it, two French people can’t give birth to a Mexican kid. Their kid is French.

I was once on a flight from Lagos to London which had to make an emergency landing in Spain because a lady went into labour. So by some definitions, she now has a Spanish child. I don’t agree with it personally. People are born in various places for various reasons. Prince William would be who he is and heir to the throne whether he has ever stepped foot in Great Britain his entire life and couldn’t speak a word of English.

And I think it is also worthwhile to not be in such a hurry to remove people’s heritage based on where they are born too. As we know, this world has a lot of ugliness in its history, and present day for that matter, and migration in order to obtain what may seem for some as basic necessities isn’t necessarily migration by choice in the simplest of terms. Africa has been long oppressed and under-developed, and as a result, many Africans move abroad in search of a ‘better life’. To now just ‘brand’ all of them as ‘English’ once they get there doesn’t seem right to me. Of course, citizenship is another matter. But an individual could obtain citizenship from 10 different countries over the course of a lifetime. I see Saka as more ‘British’ than ‘English’ personally.

I may well be speaking for myself to a large extent so I will try to avoid being too definitive. I guess the fairest way is to say it by how you ‘feel’ (which seems the qualifying criteria for just about everything else!). I’m of a similar background to Saka, in being born and raised in London but to Nigerian parents, but I absolutely don’t identify as ‘English’. I have both passports, but I see myself as Nigerian, personally. Perhaps Saka doesn’t. I wouldn’t begrudge him of course if he wanted to play for England, but have always slightly resented the ‘of course he should play for England - he’s English’ spin on things. He’s here for free healthcare and education. Otherwise his Nigerian parents would never leave Nigeria in the first place.
You'll find plenty of far right people who agree with you. Christ, the sentence about only being here for free healthcare and education could be off some BNP pamphlet.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,084
Location
...
You'll find plenty of far right people who agree with you. Christ, the sentence about only being here for free healthcare and education could be off some BNP pamphlet.
Do you think Nigerians come to England for the weather? They come for opportunity. We’d be going down a rabbit hole if we wanted to explore why those opportunities are not available in their own country in the first place though.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
I guess this is one of those never-ending debates, and I’m very familiar with both sides I guess. The way I see it, two French people can’t give birth to a Mexican kid. Their kid is French.

I was once on a flight from Lagos to London which had to make an emergency landing in Spain because a lady went into labour. So by some definitions, she now has a Spanish child. I don’t agree with it personally. People are born in various places for various reasons. Prince William would be who he is and heir to the throne whether he has ever stepped foot in Great Britain his entire life and couldn’t speak a word of English.

And I think it is also worthwhile to not be in such a hurry to remove people’s heritage based on where they are born too. As we know, this world has a lot of ugliness in its history, and present day for that matter, and migration in order to obtain what may seem for some as basic necessities isn’t necessarily migration by choice in the simplest of terms. Africa has been long oppressed and under-developed, and as a result, many Africans move abroad in search of a ‘better life’. To now just ‘brand’ all of them as ‘English’ once they get there doesn’t seem right to me. Of course, citizenship is another matter. But an individual could obtain citizenship from 10 different countries over the course of a lifetime. I see Saka as more ‘British’ than ‘English’ personally.

I may well be speaking for myself to a large extent so I will try to avoid being too definitive. I guess the fairest way is to say it by how you ‘feel’ (which seems the qualifying criteria for just about everything else!). I’m of a similar background to Saka, in being born and raised in London but to Nigerian parents, but I absolutely don’t identify as ‘English’. I have both passports, but I see myself as Nigerian, personally. Perhaps Saka doesn’t. I wouldn’t begrudge him of course if he wanted to play for England, but have always slightly resented the ‘of course he should play for England - he’s English’ spin on things. He’s here for free healthcare and education. Otherwise his Nigerian parents would never leave Nigeria in the first place.
I think you care far more about nationality than I do. I'm English purely through chance, there's no pride or shame in being English for me. I do consider myself lucky to have been born here but that's about it.

If I moved to Nigeria and my kid was born and raised there, she'd be Nigerian with an English dad. It's not that big of a deal, what it says on your passport is not your heritage in my opinion.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,084
Location
...
I think you care far more about nationality than I do. I'm English purely through chance, there's no pride or shame in being English for me. I do consider myself lucky to have been born here but that's about it.

If I moved to Nigeria and my kid was born and raised there, she'd be Nigerian with an English dad. It's not that big of a deal, what it says on your passport is not your heritage in my opinion.
It’s a subjective debate indeed. But to simplify it - Chinese people look Chinese for a reason, and Nigerian people look Nigerian, to me. In theory then - there is no such thing as ‘looking Chinese’, as a person cannot look like they were born somewhere! I think Western society have their own ideals and bubble. To me, there is a ‘look’ of an English person.

And I appreciate, it isn’t a big deal for everyone, and perhaps due to my position of being born in a country which is different from that of my heritage, it is more relevant to me than others. What I will say is despite living in England and travelling all over the world - nowhere will ever embrace me as Nigeria does. When I’m there, generally, the people refer to me as having come ‘home’.
 

JulesWinnfield

West Brom Fan
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
1,440
Do you think Nigerians come to England for the weather? They come for opportunity. We’d be going down a rabbit hole if we wanted to explore why those opportunities are not available in their own country in the first place though.
But you said Saka, so someo should feel they're only here for the free things they can extract from the country because they have foreign parents? That is an extremely damning assessment of multiculturalism and the impacts of immigration. I can't see how you can have that kind of perspective and ultimately not agree with the concerns of many anti-immigration people to be honest. Plus just how far do you take this? Would your children be Nigerian despite being two generations removed? Would their children be Nigerian despite probably no one alive in their family having ever lived in Nigeria?

I come at this from an alternative perspective - I am English but live in a foreign country. I will be ashamed if my son grows up not associating with my new country at all. Sure he'll probably identify as English as well, but to not identify at all with where you were raised? I could only view that as a failure on my part to integrate. Sure I moved here for an opportunity, but to live somewhere it seems alien to me to stay living there if you feel no kinship with the country itself.
 
Last edited:

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,084
Location
...
But you said Saka, so someo should feel they're only here for the free things they can extract from the country because they have foreign parents? That is an extremely damning assessment of multiculturalism and the impacts of immigration. I can't see how you can have that kind of perspective and ultimately not agree with the concerns of many anti-immigration people to be honest. Plus just how far do you take this? Would your children be Nigerian despite being two generations removed? Would their children be Nigerian despite probably no one alive in their family having ever lived in Nigeria?

I come at this from an alternative perspective - I am English but live in a foreign country. I will be ashamed if my son grows up not associating with my new country at all. Sure he'll probably identify as English as well, but to not identify at all with where you were raised? I could only view that as a failure on my part to integrate. Sure I moved here for an opportunity, but to live somewhere it seems alien to me to stay living there if you feel no kinship with the country itself.
Well Saka wasn’t born here of his own choice was he? His parents would have come here to give their family better opportunity. You can call it damning if you wish - perhaps there is some alternate reality that British tell themselves. There is ‘multiculturalism’ and there is ‘my country is broken and my dream is to make it out’. The truth is uglier. This isn’t an anti-immigrant position either - these people come here to work and contribute in society. And if you look at Windrush, British were very happy to take this contribution at a time.

A British person getting a holiday home in Portugal or moving to Malaga is far from the same as Saka’s parents coming to England, likely overstaying on student visas, or spending a decade working as cash-in-hand cleaners while considered ‘illegal’. That isn’t some utopia of free movement and multiculturalism. It is more likely a story of great sacrifice to give your kids something you never had. His parents couldn’t just ‘turn up’. To get in is hard, and the system doesn’t just allow you to turn up and live here from Africa. There are loads of Nigerians who would love to come here but can’t.

And I hear what you say about staying living in a country that seems alien and no kinship etc, but that is life. Of course, I am very familiar with England, and have a level of affinity - but ‘home’ is where your people are, to me, and having lived in both Nigeria and England - I can confidently say that Nigeria is more ‘home’ to me. In England, I have to ‘adapt’ everyday in a way that isn’t necessary in Nigeria. The adaptation is second nature as I have been here my whole life, but you still notice the difference to when you are in Nigeria I think. Not to mention I have been called enough names, or simply asked, with my well-spoken English accent - ‘where are you from?’ to get the sense of not finding England as home in the same way as a white Englishman.

Ultimately, some of it is down to choice. To answer your question about where it ends, and after how many generations - the reality is, that child would be entitled to identify however they choose. I’m first generation Brit in my family but even I am entitled to just call myself ‘English’ if I want to. I just don’t. So it will vary.
 

duffer

Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's
Scout
Joined
Jun 24, 2004
Messages
38,552
Location
Chelsea fan.
It’s a subjective debate indeed. But to simplify it - Chinese people look Chinese for a reason, and Nigerian people look Nigerian, to me. In theory then - there is no such thing as ‘looking Chinese’, as a person cannot look like they were born somewhere! I think Western society have their own ideals and bubble. To me, there is a ‘look’ of an English person.

I could not disagree more. The idea that Saka (or anyone) "does not look English" is one that makes me very uncomfortable.

Nationality and ethnicity are very different things.

I don't think this is the thread for this though.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
19,084
Location
...
I could not disagree more. The idea that Saka (or anyone) "does not look English" is one that makes me very uncomfortable.

Nationality and ethnicity are very different things.

I don't think this is the thread for this though.
I imagine he, based on his looks, has been asked ‘where are you from?’ countless times in his life in the UK.

But you’re right, this belongs on some sort of podcast or something!