Bringing in Maddison instead of Barkley, Sancho instead of Rashford etc isn't going to stop us getting maximum points vs Bulgaria at home though.
England squad (Games against Bulgaria and Kosovo)
- Thread starter Sean_RedDevil
- Start date
Well Rashford is better on the left so I’m not sure how you came to that conclusion. I am not saying that Rashford is better than Sancho either, they are just different players.
Sancho IS better than Rashford though .. both in terms of form and just natural talent.
Having him, Kane and Sterling firing is England's best hope of winning a tournament going forward. Rashford can be a deadly option from the bench who has the pace to seriously test teams in behind.
Like I said they are different players. This is not about quality. Sancho and Rashford offer different things.
What is Rashford offering as a wide player which Sancho does not?
Rashford is more of a LF and both him and Sterling are closer to central players than Sancho is. Sancho is closer to a winger than either Sterling and Rashford. The runs beyond Kane by Sterling and Rashford are useful. The way Rashford and Sterling play off the sides is not identical but it is quite balanced. Kane likes to drop a bit deeper at times and it is more natural to Rashford to play narrow and pick up the spaces as a LF.
That being said, I am not saying Sancho cannot be effective in his own way. There is a difference though.
I agree I'm just giving a reason as to why Southgate went more conservative
1) So he is scared.
2) England can't get Spain, Germany, Italy & the Netherlands in the group stage and i think France & Belgium are unlikely too.
3) This
Fair enough. Personally I think that front 3 could benefit from somebody like Sancho and whilst I understand the symmetry argument, I do also think teams benefit from having a wildcard option who does something a little differently and doesn't necessarily fit in to a mould.
Bit of an out there suggestion, but would it be possible for Sancho to be used in an attacking midfield role? Seems to be creative, good in tight spaces, solid passer. But I guess you'd miss out on his ability to beat his man out wide and it would be an odd choice to shift a player out of a position he's excelling it.
I’m not sure, maybe a Dortmund fan would have a better idea.
As a Leicester fan, how good do you think Maddison can get/is?
From what I've seen of him, what I like most is that he always seems to try and be positive and try things. Even if they don't always come off he's rarely taking the 'safe' option and I adore that in a creative player.
Cannot stand midfielders (or any players, really) who elect to be safe most of the time. Try and make something happen.
I think it he fulfills his potential he could be every bit as good as David Silva has been but he has a lot of work to do to get there
Shiiiitt, that's a call! Fair enough.Will definitely be keeping an even closer eye on him this season.
he has all the natural ability the rest is down to him and his work ethic
Will definitely be keeping an even closer eye on him this season.
A lot of debate about who is better than who. The way I see it is, England are in a very good place at the moment and look to have a good future ahead of them with the talent coming through.
I don't like that 3 (or rate any of them highly), but I get Rice and Henderson playing. Rice is average as they come, yes, but what other options do we have at DM? They're all as average as eachother, imo. It's not like we're stupidly neglecting a Carrick. Hopefully, by the time the Euros start, a good DM emerges, or Rice becomes a lot better because, right now, it's slim pickings.
As for Henderson, he captains one of the best teams in the world so, again, even though I'm no fan, I see why he starts. And, to be fair to him, he's alright.
It's Barkley's inclusion I disagree with. Maddison is the best English CM right now, and already one of the best playmakers in general in the PL, and we should be bedding him into the team in time for the Euros, imo.
It’s Bulgaria at home, why do you need one?
Rice snuffed out a fair few attacks
We weren’t going to lose this game, it just showed complete lack of progression by Southgate.
It was Bulgaria at home. The decision to play both Rice and Henderson was fairly baffling.
Come off it, he was anonymous. Bulgaria were utterly atrocious.
I don't think it's about needing one against Bulgaria as it is Southgate wanting to get the squad familiar with his general game plan which, regardless of the opposition, has a deep CM in order to help control things and offer defensive support. Like how City always play with a Fernandinho/Rodri or Barca with Busquets. City and Barca are stronger than 99% teams they face but don't change their way of playing, which, in the long run, benefits them.
Against tougher teams we're going to need 3 CMs so it's good that Southgate is getting everyone familiar with the system.
Also, as @Jimmy Skitz said, Rice snuffed out a few counters, and we still came close to conceding at least a couple of times, so we can't take things for granted.
Managers have their systems, and a 3 man midfield is Southgate's way regardless of the opposition. I think it's fine considering, though I wish the personnel for the DM and DLP roles were of higher quality.
a bit like how, in most games, City could probably play without Fernandinho or Rodri and still thrash teams, but Pep, like Gareth and most managers, have their system and will play it regardless of the level of opposition
in possession, yes, he was anonymous, but defensively he made 3 tackles and 3 interceptions. No one for England made more of either.
To stick with the 4-3-3 system and a deep CM is the right decision.....the difference to Barca or Manchester City is that both have enough creativity at the other two midfield positions......Henderson and Barkley couldn't even show that against Bulgaria......that's why you need Maddison or Mount.
Agreed. Well, I think Maddison should definitely be starting but I'm not that big on Mount myself. Especially as a CM. Still, it'd be interesting to see how he does. Personally, as a CM, I think Ox is really good, but I don't know if that horrible injuries going to have any lasting effects on him and his game.
I think there's a place for Winks, too, but the one problem I have with him is that he's too conservative in possession. He's very good at resisting the oppositions press, which is extremely handy, but - a bit like Cleverley - always takes the easiest option. If he could become more expressive with his passing, which, to me, seems like a confidence issue, he could become a really good DLP.
What about Liverpool's midfield then?
He wasn’t anonymous
111 touches (2nd highest in the team)
98 passes (2nd in the team)
97% pass completion (joint 1st in the team)
7/8 accurate long passes (1st in the team)
61 forward passes (1st in the team)
1 key pass
3 dribbles (joint 2nd in the team)
3 tackles (1st in the team)
3 interception (1st in the team)
He had a pretty good game, especially good in the second half.
Winks is crap compared to Mount. Mount is an excellent free kick taker and in open play too his first thought is always to shoot. Imagine having a no.10 who scores goals...I realise it's been a while for both United and England.
Ehm different style/tactics.
As a CM, Winks is better than Mount. 100%.
And England have better AM options than Mount.
I think the answer is you don't need the most creative midfield. Rice = Fabinho, Henderson = Henderson, Barkley = Wijnaldum. Not exactly that different stylistically.
I'm playing 4231 given England's average CMs and Mount deserves a shot there if he keeps playing well. He'll score way more goals than Alli or Lingard.
Based on what? One poor season that Alli has had?
Otherwise, at Mason's age had already banged in 18 goals in the league. He had a poor year but christ, a couple of good games and Mount will score way more? Hyperbole.
Alli is still the far more established player, and Mount is yet to do anything to prove he's nearly as good.
Yeah, I just think Alli and Lingard are neither great goalscorers nor great players and the league has worked them out a bit. Mount, though, I like, I have quite high hopes for him and think he'll be useful at international level. Just an opinion.
Fair enough it's your opinion but it's weird to say Alli isn't a great goalscorer .. the man had 2 double figure seasons at the age of 19/20 in the Prem. Getting goals is something he's fantastic at, better than Mount has ever been. Lingard makes sense because the most he's grabbed in the league is 8, but Alli? I feel like too much of that is based on last season.
The problem with Alli is that he hasn't done it in an England shirt, and he wouldn't be the first English player to not replicate club form for his country. But in terms of his ability at club level I'd be surprised if he didn't bounce back a bit this season, as long as he doesn't suffer injuries.
My problem is that Barkley isn't effective enough with Henderson & Rice in midfield and we have seen that against Bulgaria......Maddison/Mount (In the future Foden) + Henderson + Rice would be fine.
We’ll see but I doubt it will make that much difference. Mount and Maddison do look like good players though.
Alli won't be first choice this season. Lo Celso, Eriksen, Son and Lucas are all better.
When Winks first broke out with Spurs, he was always looking for the forward pass and played very well this way in some high stakes matches against good or great opponents. He was widely viewed by Spurs fans as a new creative CM for a while.
His slow regression to conservative sideways/backwards passing is a bit of a mystery. If the conundrum can be solved, however, I could see him doing a job for us in one of the creative roles we desperately need.
I wonder if you might be right about the confidence thing. It certainly didn't come from management: no coach is going to hammer the creativity out of a midfielder intentionally.
But he also had no rational reason to lose confidence. Even when he was constantly looking forward, he had very respectable pass completion stats. I can only visualise it being something psychological he needs to overcome. Perhaps he's a bit of a pathological perfectionist or too afraid of making mistakes. Alternatively or additionally, he seems somewhat injury prone, which, unless you've got the attitude of a Kane, can definitely make you play more timidly (but shouldn't really affect your range of passing or decision-making).
Get Winks sorted and I reckon he'll be a consistent option, barring injury, for a long time to come. Though the "England DNA" crop steadily coming through the pipeline will hopefully give him a robust challenge since they'll all have been inculcated in the ways of a more creative style of play from the beginning.
Lucas is, at this moment in time, a meme player, primarily because of his CL SF hat trick. By which I mean that he's severely overrated by stats analysts and casual observers: people who don't watch Spurs on a very regular basis.
He's yet to put together a really convincing extended run of performances for them. He's already had a couple of bad games this season -- which, to be fair, is a bit like the entire team. Unlike the rest of the team, however, he doesn't have an outstanding credit history to point to.
Last edited:
Pochettino.
I'm kidding .. kind of. But our central midfielders in general do have a horrible habit of playing crab football.