Erik ten Hag vs Sancho

[Slevs]

I've been thinking about how United seems to be like a graveyard for young talent. Regarding Sancho, I think he just arrives at United at the wrong time. I think if he went back to City, a well oiled machine team, he'd fare much better.
IMO, Sancho is not a leader, he's not a floor raiser. He's a ceiling raiser who can make good team better. He's the one who's gonna play better IF the other players played good. If the other players play bad, he's not going to be the one raising his game to change the game.
I think what Ten Hag is trying to do is improve the mentality of our players. Unfortunately we are shit in that area right now. We played worse when under pressure or adversity. Ten Hag is filtering the players who are mentally tough and can raise their game when the things go bad. Unfortunately Sancho is the one that got filtered out.
We can argue whether Ten Hag did it correctly to achieve that, but if United in the end end up with a team of mentally tough players then it's mission accomplished.

Not disagreeing with you but this reminds me of another player in central midfield for whom we had a million excuses as to why he wasn't performing to the required standard.

Ten Hag is filtering the players who are mentally tough and can raise their game when the things go bad.

I like this, this has been badly needed for a considerable amount of time. Too many times we give up after an early setback and concede 2-3-4 goals after some pressure and adversity.

 

[babablue]

"Player goes to birthday party - redcafe posters are furious"

Are you a professional? Do you understand the meaning of the word "optics"? Like it or not, it's a thing. Say you were struggling at work, and the company had a crunch period coming up. You then decide to take a week off to go partying with your friends. Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?

Leaving aside that Sancho having free time is a symptom of the fact that he is not performing, if he decided to go to that party, he had to make absolutely sure that no pictures came out on social media. The lack of intelligence is problematic on its own, without getting into the rest.

 

[didz]

While I'm a massive fan of Sancho and don't think he's played quite as badly as some make out, it's not looking good at all. By January he'll be halfway through his contract and the club will need to be thinking of moving him on, simply because the idea of giving him any kind of extension would be utterly laughable.

In a way, signing Alexis Sanchez was the first domino of his failure here. Alexis set the benchmark for what a marquee United winger (even a failing one) was worth and the club foolishly kept that £350k contract around by chucking it at a player barely out of his teens. I can't see how we could possibly have needed to be giving a contract like that to Sancho to get him to sign, but any agent worth his salt would have been saying, "well, that's what you gave Sanchez."

And I do think that contract has probably contributed to Sancho's lack of application on the pitch. What I'm pretty much certain of is that we'll be picking up a pittance for him in terms of transfer fee if we do sell, as a direct result of that contract.

 

[Castia]

I'm not debating "reasons" as to why he's got time-off. I said I find it odd to be angry at a player going to a party on their time-off - please be objective, and don't trail off in random tangents, please.

Yes, he should reserve the right to live his life in his time-off. What's not computing here? Maybe you guys clock-in/go to work on your days off, that's cool - I'm comfortable in saying a substantial number of people don't, and I don't think they should be vilified for it.

What does "just having a summer off and being 4 games into the season" mean in terms of Sancho or any other player being able to live their lives - go to parties, travel when they have time off? What's the permissible threshold? Players train daily, the breaks/gaps between football matches seems to only be getting shorter, more populated schedules - longer games etc. Prem ended May 28th in a World Cup year, and restarted 12th August. Football is a job. If he’s authorised to go on holiday then he should.

If you read a post that says "the way you guys speak about football players has undertones that make me uncomfortable and I just can't get on board with - that's not to say he can't be criticised for not performing on the pitch, and supposedly in training - according to the manager, but when people start posting pictures of players in their personal time with the purpose of rallying up vitriol towards them - I think that's the point a sensible adult would say "eh, we're jumping into weirdo territory here" - and your conclusion is "you're defending him" and bafflement - then I'm afraid I've got nothing else for you, unfortunately.

If it was a 2 week break mid season I’d be happy with him doing whatever he pleases, I’m not against players having downtime. He’s being rewarded for playing poorly, the week he’s been called out publicly by the manager he’s off to NYC, there’s no fight in him to get into the starting 11 or England in a Euro’s season and thats Sancho in a nutshell.

It’s no wonder stories of squad mates being unhappy with him are surfacing they’re all training and playing 2 international games whilst he’s partying in NYC you have to laugh……the week his attitude has been called out in public ffs

But yeah enjoy the well deserved holiday!

 

[afrocentricity]

the week his attitude has been called out in public ffs

Tbf this is exactly the kind of week you might want to get away and do something completely different.... forget work for a few days, so to speak.

Y'all are weird, and the comments from some are dodgy too...

 

[mitchmouse]

The fact of the matter is that Sancho has not fulfilled the promise - nowhere near the level he showed at Dortmund. If he still has problems regarding the reasons he was given a break last season, then the same should follow now. If not, I'm afraid the jury has delivered its verdict and maybe he should move on and we should ask a sensible fee for him..l. Knowing us, we'll just let home go back to Germany for free.

That said, if he and ETH patch things up and the manager believes he can help Sancho improve - and the player accepts that - the squad is looking paper-thin again and, if any problems are ironed out, I'd give him one final chance... given that there's nowhere we can offload him to right now. I just don't understand what has happened to him

 

[Revaulx]

Tbf this is exactly the kind of week you might want to get away and do something completely different.... forget work for a few days, so to speak.

Completely agree. If he took the Gravenberch approach and posted pictures working out in the gym, people would simply lambast him for “PR”. So he may as well go for it.

It still doesn’t look good though; optics and all that. What people on the internet think about it is clearly irrelevant, but his bosses and teammates might take a different view.

Y'all are weird, and the comments from some are dodgy too...

Yikes! In what way?

 

[Plastic Evra]

Are you a professional? Do you understand the meaning of the word "optics"? Like it or not, it's a thing. Say you were struggling at work, and the company had a crunch period coming up. You then decide to take a week off to go partying with your friends. Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?

Leaving aside that Sancho having free time is a symptom of the fact that he is not performing, if he decided to go to that party, he had to make absolutely sure that no pictures came out on social media. The lack of intelligence is problematic on its own, without getting into the rest.

Isn't vacation time typically planned in advance with management or HR for any organisation of a certain size to avoid those sort of issues (being short-handed in summer, etc) ? Besides Sancho did not suddenly go on vacation, it happens to be an international break and he has not been called up, he's not been "rewarded" any further than any non-international player.

As to what I do in my free time, yeah my boss can kindly bugger off and keep his judgements for himself.

I appreciate you can argue that football is not just any job and that it at least has a public image persona component. That's true but in my opinion the only salient part to criticize is Sancho's use of public media to kneejerk against mild criticism from his gaffer. Any other time only a fraction of people would read/care about his IG feed unrelated content and rightly so.

As a supporter all I really wish is to see Sancho play closer to his ceiling if ten Hag thinks he's fit enough to be part of the squad. I don't mind people judging harshly his performances, I think that's earned.

My biggest question in all of this is why the situation wasn't handled (or pre-handled) within 24-48h and I don't know why it wasn't exactly.

 

[sullydnl]

Are you a professional? Do you understand the meaning of the word "optics"? Like it or not, it's a thing. Say you were struggling at work, and the company had a crunch period coming up. You then decide to take a week off to go partying with your friends. Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?

Leaving aside that Sancho having free time is a symptom of the fact that he is not performing, if he decided to go to that party, he had to make absolutely sure that no pictures came out on social media. The lack of intelligence is problematic on its own, without getting into the rest.

Terrible example as the norm in the overwhemling majority of workplaces is exactly the opposite of what you are describing.

1) If the company grant me leave, I get to take leave. If they grant it in their busy period, they fecked up.
2) My boss can absolutely get fecked if he thinks what I do on that vacation is in the slightest bit his business.
3) I, being a normal person, obviously wouldn't have any issue with my colleague taking the vacation they're entitled to and would expect them to enjoy it as they see fit. I would be a deeply weird person if I thought I was entitled to object in any way to them taking vacation they were entitled to or criticise how they chose to spend that free time as it is none of my business.

 

[TsuWave]

I certainly have worked on weekends or days off before - voluntarily and enjoying it - when I felt highly responsible for a project or wanted to prove a point. And people who are self-employed do it all the time.

If you enjoy your work it shouldn’t even be seen as such a big sacrifice, competitive people get joy out of challenges. So it really does say a lot for a competitive athlete to pin a social media post to the top that is a response to a questioning of his commitment and then post pictures of going out and party in NYC.

At least if you do go, don’t post the pictures. Of course he can do it and it doesn’t make him a terrible person, but it does say a lot about his mentality. For reference, this is what Liverpools new signing has done in his time off:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

That’s good for you? That’s your prerogative and you reserve the right to do so. Similarly, people can reserve the right to not go to work on their day off? What are we even talking about here?

Sancho hasn’t in fact posted any pictures of him at a party - the pictures were procured from somewhere else which speaks to how weird this whole exercise is. People prowling the internet for pictures of a player in his personal time to use them as justification for anger because he dares not be at work on his time off. This doesn’t strike a bit odd to any of you? Like, at all?

Not that he’d be wrong by posting the pictures anyway, but see - this is just people saying random things - that aren’t even true. “At least if you go don’t post the pictures. It’s a reflection of your mentality” - Sancho didn’t post the pictures.

Getting worked up over someone using their personal time is a bigger indictment on your mentality than Sancho going to a party on said personal time is on his.

He only hass time off because hes so shit that southgate doesn't want to pick him. Thats not something he earned
Even Maguire is playing for England.

I don’t think at any point this conversation was about “why” he has time off. Fact of the matter is - he has time off and should be able go to parties in said time off without people being whipped into a frenzy. It’s a ridiculous notion and reason for him or any other player to be lambasted over.

Is Maguire playing for England meant to be anything other than an insight into how comical Southgate selection process is?

Are you a professional? Do you understand the meaning of the word "optics"? Like it or not, it's a thing. Say you were struggling at work, and the company had a crunch period coming up. You then decide to take a week off to go partying with your friends. Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?

You gotta be pulling my leg

 

[crossy1686]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Doesn't even want to leave, just wants to call his boss out for making him accountable for turning up on time and training.

And for those that say he has mental health problems and needs support, see the following:

Ten Hag had become increasingly exasperated with Jadon Sancho’s punctuality and what he perceived as sluggishness in training. This has also not gone unnoticed by his team-mates, some of whom share the manager’s sense of frustration. [@TheAthleticFC] #MUFC

Last season, Ten Hag and his coaches tried to get Jadon Sancho to arrive on time by setting him a schedule at least one hour earlier than the rest of the #mufc squad.

This tactic had some initial success, before Sancho fell into familiar patterns. [TheAthleticFC]

One source close to Dortmund noted that although “Jadon [Sancho] was mentally tough on the pitch” he could be “quite childish and unprofessional with little things”.

Occasionally missing team meetings or oversleeping were viewed as problematic. It got to the point where Edin Terzic, Lucien Favre’s assistant at Dortmund, would personally knock on Sancho’s hotel room door to pick him up before meetings. [TheAthleticFC]

Former England youth coach speaking on Jadon Sancho:

“Maybe (because) they don’t wear their tracksuit bottoms exactly like everybody else or their laces are undone or they wear headphones, we think they’re a bad person and we start to label them.

“They might be late once or twice, but somebody else might be late once or twice but we’ll forgive the other person because they fit our unconscious bias.”

MUFC prepared to sanction transfer of £65m

Sancho never open to a move and went to New York on holiday

Situation complicated by Antony's absence "until further notice"

 

[Alex B]

If the latest reports are anything to go by then he just doesn't have the mentality to perform at a massive club in the biggest league. He should be jumping through hoops to ensure he makes the RW spot his own. Unfortunately a lot of this is down to the lack of due diligence and investment at the top of Manchester United. Sancho was being monitored, scouted etc for years. That was ample opportunity to know everything about somebody, how he copes in any given situation, training records, the lot. The situation is far different to having to react to a new kid on the block, a potential unscouted suitor suddenly becoming available etc. The club should have known Sancho's bowel movements.

 

[RuudTom83]

Late for training = fine £££

Hopefully if he is late 3-4 times a week United can get a decent amount of his fat salary back.

 

[Gycraig]

Are you a professional? Do you understand the meaning of the word "optics"? Like it or not, it's a thing. Say you were struggling at work, and the company had a crunch period coming up. You then decide to take a week off to go partying with your friends. Yes, you are entitled to your vacation, but how do you think your boss will take it? How would YOU take it, if a colleague did it?

Leaving aside that Sancho having free time is a symptom of the fact that he is not performing, if he decided to go to that party, he had to make absolutely sure that no pictures came out on social media. The lack of intelligence is problematic on its own, without getting into the rest.

It’s an international break, he hasn’t been selected for England, it’s the perfect time for him to take a holiday, it’s the exact opposite of a crunch period.

 

[reelworld]

Not disagreeing with you but this reminds me of another player in central midfield for whom we had a million excuses as to why he wasn't performing to the required standard.

yeah, as I mentioned previously, comparison with Pogba is fair

I like this, this has been badly needed for a considerable amount of time. Too many times we give up after an early setback and concede 2-3-4 goals after some pressure and adversity.

yeah, I'd argue that the lack of mentality is not solely because of 1-2 players, but it's something that affecting the whole squad. Sancho does look like the weakest link though.

 

[crossy1686]

Late for training = fine £££

Hopefully if he is late 3-4 times a week United can get a decent amount of his fat salary back.

Imagine your employer making you come in an hour early just because you kept being late and training like shit? How is that not a wake up call to do something about your life?

 

[Traub]

If it was a 2 week break mid season I’d be happy with him doing whatever he pleases, I’m not against players having downtime. He’s being rewarded for playing poorly, the week he’s been called out publicly by the manager he’s off to NYC, there’s no fight in him to get into the starting 11 or England in a Euro’s season and thats Sancho in a nutshell.

It’s no wonder stories of squad mates being unhappy with him are surfacing they’re all training and playing 2 international games whilst he’s partying in NYC you have to laugh……the week his attitude has been called out in public ffs

But yeah enjoy the well deserved holiday!

Yip as a comparison it would be like failing the first semester of exams, and instead of putting in the hard hours of graft during the holidays to make sure you pass the second semester, you decide to rather go partying during the break.

 

[sullydnl]

Going by the information available, the only thing ETH has done wrong is reference that Sancho was taking time off for reasons due to mental fitness without the player's permission.

The disclosure of injury information itself is an increasing topic in professional sports, with athletes in sports such as rugby successfully taking the position that even disclosing the nature of actual physical injuries should rest with them, as it is their private medical information. ETH himself raised that point in terms of Shaw when asked for a timeline for his recovery. "We can't do that [put a timescale], it's personal these days". And mental health issues come with their own particular sensitivities.

The correct action would have been to agree with Sancho what their public position would be and stick with that, whatever it is. You should absolutely never be in a position where your manager (in any sort of job) is suggesting publicly that you have mental health issues (which is how ETH's comments were taken) without your consent.

That said, the reports don't seem to be suggesting that this disclosure was the crux of the issue between Sancho and ETH, so it may just be a side note. And Sancho's reported struggles with basic punctuality alone are enough to see you dropped.

 

[Marcelinho87]

I think Sancho is a talented lad and he is still young enough to do good things BUT he comes across as disinterested.. Looks like somebody who would rather be in his bedroom playing FIFA than putting in work to be great.

Probably feels like he's made it where he is, a total lack of ambition fed by United and their previous willingness to overpay wages to those undeserved.

 

[saivet]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Doesn't even want to leave, just wants to call his boss out for making him accountable for turning up on time and training.

And for those that say he has mental health problems and needs support, see the following:

Lackadaisical attitude towards time keeping. I know plenty of people and unfortunately I think they usually stay that way or fall back into their patterns. That's not to say it can't be fixed but without a significant change in mindset, think these issues will just persist throughout his career.

 

[JuriM]

I don't want to label anyone, but for his own sake, has he seen a doctor regarding potential ADHD diagnosis?

 

[El Zoido]

Yip as a comparison it would be like failing the first semester of exams, and instead of putting in the hard hours of graft during the holidays to make sure you pass the second semester, you decide to rather go partying during the break.

Exactly. There’s always a subset of people who mock the idea of fans getting annoyed about this, and sure he can do what he wants with his free time, but it’s not a good look for a supposedly top tier footballer. If it was me I’d be grafting hard to get back on track, it just looks like he doesn’t care. And then you watch him on the pitch and he just looks like he doesn’t care. So I suppose in a way it all makes sense.

 

[astracrazy]

It’s an international break, he hasn’t been selected for England, it’s the perfect time for him to take a holiday, it’s the exact opposite of a crunch period.

Not really though is it. He should perhaps be asking himself why he doesn't get selected for his team and country and doing something about it. I'd like to know how many of his team mates who didn't get selected are taking holiday and treating it as downtime, or still working and training. I bet the majority would be training and keeping fit.

Sancho removed the post. Positive move?

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ncho-removes-message-questioning-erik-ten-hag

Doesn't exactly fit his narrative keeping that up followed buy showing pictures of him partying in NY

 

[RuudTom83]

Imagine your employer making you come in an hour early just because you kept being late and training like shit? How is that not a wake up call to do something about your life?

Crazy isn’t it…I read it like they gave him the early start times knowing full well he would miss them, but hopefully not miss them by over an hour, so technically he was still on time with everyone else.

No wonder some of the other players are annoyed with him…imagine if Keano was still in the dressing room!

 

[Rusholme Ruffian]

People don’t stop living their lives because work isn’t going according to plan. He was on his off time and went to a birthday party. Bit odd to be furious about it.

You are missing the point spectacularly. He could have used this time to get his shit together and prove a point to his manager, his colleagues and the fans. He chose not to, in fact he chose the exact opposite. Nobody is questioning his right to do it, they are understandably drawing the conclusion that he doesn't actually want to put things right and that is frustrating and disappointing - especially given his disproportionately huge wage packet.

 

[Adisa]

Some of these things have to do with poor upbringing. Discipline is central to success in any field.

 

[sullydnl]

Not really though is it. He should perhaps be asking himself why he doesn't get selected for his team and country and doing something about it. I'd like to know how many of his team mates who didn't get selected are taking holiday and treating it as downtime, or still working and training. I bet the majority would be training and keeping fit.



Doesn't exactly fit his narrative keeping that up followed buy showing pictures of him partying in NY

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Well, that's one.

 

[TrueRed79]

Look at you all emotional because Sancho went to a birthday party "in NY!" in his time-off. Do you go to work and put him triple shifts on your days off or something?

Is the guy not allowed a life outside of Manchester United - all because he's paid a fortune?

Oh look at you getting your knickers in a twist because i used an exclamation mark to accentuate "NY". That means i am getting all emotional? You seem like an odd person. You're simply not getting any of the other posters points that differ from yours regarding your comment. Do you honestly think that i don't think he should be allowed to go to NY on a day off? Seriously? I can't be arsed to explain myself again. Some others have touched on why he should have had more sense to not take a trip like at right now. Maybe the penny has dropped for you at this stage as to why he shouldn't be over there.

 

[theyneverlearn]

Feels like such a waste of talent. Maybe he just isn’t interested in being the best, or the highest scorer or a trophy winner etc.

Perhaps he is motivated by money which allows a certain lifestyle, and he has already achieved that.

He is young enough to turn it around and under the right manager, but it appears ETH’s methods just are not working on him.

 

[Traub]

Look at you all emotional because Sancho went to a birthday party "in NY!" in his time-off. Do you go to work and put him triple shifts on your days off or something?

Is the guy not allowed a life outside of Manchester United - all because he's paid a fortune?

If my job was in jeopardy I would be putting in the extra hours at work - this is essentially the same. He isn't De Bruyne or Haaland who deserve a break given their effort and achievement. He is a player who isn't training properly but somehow deserves time-off.

Exactly. There’s always a subset of people who mock the idea of fans getting annoyed about this, and sure he can do what he wants with his free time, but it’s not a good look for a supposedly top tier footballer. If it was me I’d be grafting hard to get back on track, it just looks like he doesn’t care. And then you watch him on the pitch and he just looks like he doesn’t care. So I suppose in a way it all makes sense.

Compare it to someone like Luke Shaw. He was slated for his fitness and effort, but he has consistently returned to pre-season early and put in the extra hours to the point that he is now a key player. He had Mourinho calling him stupid in public FFS. It's clear to see Sancho just doesn't have the mentality.

 

[Marwood]

I don't want to label anyone, but for his own sake, has he seen a doctor regarding potential ADHD diagnosis?

Not another Sancho mental health diagnosis.

 

[Highfather_24]

Regardless of whether this is true or not, why are we airing all this dirty laundry in public? Will only hurt our cause in the transfer market when we eventually try to sell him. Absurd way to run a club.

 

[TrueRed79]

It’s an international break, he hasn’t been selected for England, it’s the perfect time for him to take a holiday, it’s the exact opposite of a crunch period.

Take a holiday four games into a season? Warming the bench and not able to turn up to work in time? Taking a massive salary from your employer. 18 year old performing better than you and taking your place. When in training, allegedly slacking off and lack of effort. I'd say Sancho is in a crunch period, for his career at Utd. Unbelievable take.

 

[Plastic Evra]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And for those that say he has mental health problems and needs support, see the following:

It's not mutually exclusive ? And while I may be wrong, I don't feel people are using it as an excuse (if true) ? It's more about being mindful about how and what you criticize a player for.

I don't want to label anyone, but for his own sake, has he seen a doctor regarding potential ADHD diagnosis?

You'd hope MU also is offering options to facilitate access to any medical professional their players might need. Though ultimately you can bring a donkey to water but can't force him to drink... I don't know if it's the case here. If the club has done all due diligence to give Sancho as much support as possible -and from the outside it does seem like it did at least partly- there's really not much else to say. Sancho is not entitled to a squad place and he has to conform to basic team discipline.

 

[Conor]

I wonder if people will ever realise that you cannot compare the job of an elite athlete to your own day job. This guy is being paid over 1m a month and has gone off on the piss to the US after being called out for poor effort in training, and people act like it's the same as going to Spain on your PTO

 

[Slevs]

Sancho will regret this for a long time. I know he'll never end up poor, but there are a lot of things in life other than money.

 

[Rossa]

Tbf this is exactly the kind of week you might want to get away and do something completely different.... forget work for a few days, so to speak.

Y'all are weird, and the comments from some are dodgy too...

Yep, but then you go away with a personal trainer and return fitter, fresher and better than when you left.

There are athletes that when not performing take a break from the schedule, but they go training - either mentally, physically or both, and they do that so they can return fitter and better than before.

Going to NYC with a long flight both ways, most likely causing jetlag. Drinking alcohol will only reduce his fitness and make him less prepared for the next match.

This is all on him. It may well be his holiday, but this is the time to prove to himself, to his SoMe followers, his manager and future suitors that he's determined and he will prove beyond doubt that he has the mentality required as well as the fitness. He's done the complete opposite.

 

[crossy1686]

Crazy isn’t it…I read it like they gave him the early start times knowing full well he would miss them, but hopefully not miss them by over an hour, so technically he was still on time with everyone else.

No wonder some of the other players are annoyed with him…imagine if Keano was still in the dressing room!

I can definitely imagine Keane would enjoy the waking him up to attend team meetings on time, probably with a bucket of cold water and some choice words. I wonder how many times that would have to happen before he was ready and downstairs before Keane even got to his door?

 

[Rolaholic]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This number shit again...

 

[Oldyella]

Take a holiday four games into a season? Warming the bench and not able to turn up to work in time? Taking a massive salary from your employer. 18 year old performing better than you and taking your place. When in training, allegedly slacking off and lack of effort. I'd say Sancho is in a crunch period, for his career at Utd. Unbelievable take.

If he's allowed time off, similar to other players then he should be able to do what he wants with it. However..

Given he can't make regular training on time by all accounts, I'm unsure why anyone would think he might make a sacrifice and use this time to get back in good books by spending time working hard with the club. It appears he just doesn't have any drive or desire to push himself.