The proof is in the multiple losses by 3+ goals where numerous players stop tracking back, marking, or running entirely in some cases. Strange hill there lad.
Erik ten Hag vs Sancho
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Ok so it must be true
Well I doubt they’ve been saying that. I’m not convinced the “demanding an apology” thing exists outside the tabloids anyway.Nah, they wouldn’t.
They’re famously negligent and ETH’s the manager.
It won’t be them saying, ‘tell him to say sorry publicly’.
Again, that is your view. That is not downing tools. Making incidental, yet basic mistakes and small time mentality are not evidence of downing tools. It's a collective failure in effort and preparation from the players, the coaching staff and the manager and the opponent playing far better football than us.
We are midtable mate and looking on his midnight Fifa sessions, him partying in London and jetting off to New York, Sancho is not willing to help his teammates, his coach and his club to get out of the midtable misery. So why defend this rich, lazy footballer? It's not about the apology, everybody can apologize. Like another member said, it's about conduct, him really wanting to change and be professional. If he doesn't mean it, then the apology is just useless.
This thread clearly shows some people want the manager out so much that they will use anything to bash him now.
"He came out in public" - He was asked a question at a press conference about the player. He didn't go out of his way to talk about him. He didn't release a diss rap track. He said why he wasn't in the squad after being asked. Should he have just stared blankly at them? Said next question please? District them with that dance he did after the league cup?
If he lied and said Sancho was injured then Sancho would have posted almost the same thing. He had that ready to go in the drafts. If he actually wrote that himself then that's more effort than he's shown on the pitch for United.
These same posters saying the manager was harsh, handled it bad or are giving Sancho the benefit of the doubt are the same ones straight away saying players are shite in match day threads every weekend. They'll say "yeah but I'm not the manager" and no, they're just the fans helping pay the wages of a player who obviously doesn't give a shit about playing for the club you love. Well done, you're helping the poor little fella buy more cards for his FIFA Ultimate Team.
I get wanting a manager out for bad results but anyone having a "...yeah but" about his handling in this situation doesn't come across very well.
"He came out in public" - He was asked a question at a press conference about the player. He didn't go out of his way to talk about him. He didn't release a diss rap track. He said why he wasn't in the squad after being asked. Should he have just stared blankly at them? Said next question please? District them with that dance he did after the league cup?
If he lied and said Sancho was injured then Sancho would have posted almost the same thing. He had that ready to go in the drafts. If he actually wrote that himself then that's more effort than he's shown on the pitch for United.
These same posters saying the manager was harsh, handled it bad or are giving Sancho the benefit of the doubt are the same ones straight away saying players are shite in match day threads every weekend. They'll say "yeah but I'm not the manager" and no, they're just the fans helping pay the wages of a player who obviously doesn't give a shit about playing for the club you love. Well done, you're helping the poor little fella buy more cards for his FIFA Ultimate Team.
I get wanting a manager out for bad results but anyone having a "...yeah but" about his handling in this situation doesn't come across very well.
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ETH is the boss he has the right to choose the platform and how to deliver any criticism he deems necessary. Over the years players who have contributed much more to this club like Rooney and Nani have faced much fiercer criticism from SAF who literally threw Rooney to the wolves on not one but two occasions when he outed private contract negotiations in one instance, do you remember Mourinho on Shaw about how he was the latter's brain on the pitch?
None of those players ever reacted in a way that accused the manager of lying, they were professional and took it on the chin. Sancho, who has done nothing for the club, who pulls out of any fifty-fifty challenge for the ball and has no intensity to talk about has no standing calling out the manager on social media.
I'm curious what certain posters think the 7-0 battering at Anfield was, if not downing tools? Or the spankings at the Etihad etc among many others
Sancho is a dick that needs shipping out ASAP but this should not have been played out publicly.
Don't get it, do you?
It speaks volumes about Sancho’s mentality. Hopefully he’s gone in a few months. ETH should not have gone public with it though.
Im sure the media would have accepted that and not gone any further
Stop trying to make out this is ETH's fault.
Agreed.
I think I have said this before but they way some posters are adamant that ETH should not have gone public is bizarre to say the least. Is he the first manager to do this? Sancho could probably be the first one who gets dicked out of the club because of his immature social media reaction.
There are ways and means to deal with a situation though.Im sure the media would have accepted that and not gone any further
Stop trying to make out this is ETH's fault.
let’s say you were not doing your job properly and massively underpeforming. What’s the correct way to deal with you? Have a private chat with you with HR present, or send out an email to the entire company stating that Alexthelion was not working hard enough?
i 100% back ETH for dropping Sancho. The little turd needs flushing out of the club. But ETH speaking publicly escalated the situation.
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Exactly, Sancho has the bigger side of responsibility to correct the situation as the ball is in his court but EtH wrongly handled this with his expression to the media. You don't need to defend Sancho to occupy an opinion that the manager took the wrong approach regardless of any player.
Also using Sir Alex Ferguson as some justification is off the mark as many ex players will tell you Ferguson's man management was world class even Ronaldo who for some reason or another just didn't click with Erik. Erik has history in this area even while at Ajax with some of the younger players, so it's inevitable that he could potentially be undermined when compared with a manager that has been successful at the highest levels in football.
It's no different to a business decision, certain choices you make you have to consider things like damage mitigation, collateral and ramifications. I think if Erik was honest with himself he wouldn't repeat the same action again given how this has had a domino effect with the media and the player. Bottom line is Sancho is not good enough to be a Manchester United player, he's proven as such with his dreadful displays last season and he's not at the level to play in the league but it doesn't vindicate the managers approach being justifiable in the slightest.
It’s not even the first time he’s done it about one of our players, Garnacho springs to mind - and that lad has reacted exactly as any proper player should, regardless of performance fluctuations he keeps his mouth shut and consistently works his arse off.
From the poster talking about Class A & Class B shares in the Ratcliffe thread based on what exactly?
Going off of paper reports is commonplace on a football forum, funnily enough you’re happy to go with them when you like them. Jog on.
Who is saying Sancho is right? Some might have the opinion that it could have been handled differently and that Ten Hag makes too much out of this apology thing. Sancho was wrong, and should never have posted what he did. It's possible to have two thoughts in the head at the same time.
There is a long list of trustworthy sources behind these reports (Romano, Ornstein etc, etc), so yes, it's probably true.
You’re making the common mistake of seeing anyone who doesn’t villainies Sancho as ‘defending’ him, it’s tedious & not particularly progressive. I’ve answered this elsewhere recently so you’ll have to look at my post history for that.
As for the squad downing tools, as you say it’s my view so I’m not sure why you’re still debating it. We see things differently & that’s fine.
Also I’m not sure what him being ‘rich’ has to do with the standards you’re preaching, you sound envious. It would be far more convincing if the faux outrage stayed away from jealous quips.
Oh yeah, that would have gone down quietly. I'm sure the journo's would have just respected it and left it at that, absolutely no follow up questions every week at all.
You have your views, I have mine. I respect that, but you're using the downing tools argument to criticize Ten Hag of him giving certain players (either) preferential treatment and/or keep selecting players who don't perform as well (i.e. Antony) which in my view isn't that black and white.
You don't know me, I don't know you, so I don't understand why you call me envious and jealous. I don't like those personal attacks. So let's stay civilized and keep having healthy discussions on a public board. Again, he's earning 350k per month. That's crazy money. One of the highest in European football. Based on that we should see football of the highest quality, but in football there are no guarantees and I understand that. However, I can't understand why some high earning players don't put 100% effort in and slacking off for the money they earn. That's unacceptable. That's the point I was making about him being rich.
Great! You’ve made your opinion known. Most disagree. I think Sancho’s reaction demonstrates why it was good that Ten Hag called him out. He’s making an example of him and Jadon is letting his career rot away. Every United player is watching this play out. Let it be a lesson for all of them.
Problem is, how many modern day players have Becks attitude
I’m really not, my comment about players with a history of downing tools was about those players during the course of their United careers, pre & post EtH.
The fact you’ve name dropped Antony as a player not performing well yet continuing to be ickes without me saying anything should tell you something though.
Of course he does. Both are acting like cry babies and making a meal out of a trivial matter.
I love Sancho's flair on the ball. Very few players can unsettle and beat opposition players from a standing start. He performances off the ball though require a lot to be desired. In a pressing team everyone has to buy into the philosophy. If one starts slacking then it starts to lead to others slacking off. The intensity drops and instead of genuinely competing players are just running next to opposition players. ETH was right to demand more from him. Using the language that he did might in hindsight be phrased differently, but you never know. Sancho wants to be a maverick footballer and doesn't want to change. It's best that he goes to another team as soon as possible.
We're just shit. Not everything is explained by downing tools. I didn't see any player sulking on the pitch, it's either our tactics are crap or the players themselves aren't good enough.
We have been shit for 10 years. Can't be downing the tools all this time.
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Why is it impossible for a majority of posters on here to discuss things with nuance? You immediately get a situation when doing anything but castigating Sancho is seen as criticism of EtH. Surely both could have handled things better as you say.
A bad result isn’t simply a ‘downing of tools’ but I’d say we’ve seen both being exposed a shite & players not giving their all.
The 7-0 last year for example was a catastrophes but they scored on every attack, but contrast that with the 5 at Old Trafford where in the infancy of the game you’ve got Maguire stepping up waving his hand because he couldn’t be bothered to properly defend the situation.
I don’t think any player fully says f this but I do think we see our players concede & succumb to bad results before actually mustering a fight back.
This particular point is flying right over some posters heads. Sancho has brought this all on himself. You can add being an idiot to the above as well. As big a waste of space that you will ever see walk through Old Trafford.
In general, downing tools is far too hard of an accusation and used far too casually in my opinion. I don't know and haven't seen any player who has a history of downing tools. Yes, sometimes players just give up during matches and getting frustrated, messing up the basics and want to throw in the towel. The occasion makes them feel that. Emotions mess them up. But rationally downing tools on purpose to harm the club and let the teammates, the manager, the coaching staff and the fans down? Not in my books.
That's mentally giving up rather than downing the tools to get the manager sacked. Our players don't lack in the efforts department, but too many losses make them mentally fragile and can give up when things go south. They lack confidence or skills but not efforts imo.
As for the Ten Hag Sancho debacle, it's for a pretty trivial issue that could have been solved within two weeks but instead it turned into a huge argument lasting till now. He criticized him in public and player responded by saying he's not scapegoat. That's basically it. One or two meetings at the training ground could have solved this in a week time, and even if they can't withstand each other, they could act professional till one of them leaves the club. The player isn't forced to apologize to the manager as long as he follows his instructions when he returns. Just get on with it both of them, but the reality is both Ten Hag and Sancho are acting like cry babies rather than mature adults imo.
He has been useless but he is still a 70m player on massive wages, just dumped because he won't say sorry. Mules are less stubborn than these two.
They both should be put in a room and let swing a few punches or have some verbal wrestling, whatever it takes to end this stupid clown show.
What does ETH want, a cake, some flowers maybe with Sancho singing an apology. Not happening as Sancho might be happy collecting his 100s thousands every week.
A professional club, it's become pathetic in so many ways lately.
They both should be put in a room and let swing a few punches or have some verbal wrestling, whatever it takes to end this stupid clown show.
What does ETH want, a cake, some flowers maybe with Sancho singing an apology. Not happening as Sancho might be happy collecting his 100s thousands every week.
A professional club, it's become pathetic in so many ways lately.
I feel we’re splitting hairs here.
If a player gives up mentally, they are not giving there all in that area thus are downing tools. It’s all about the terminology people are comfortable but I’d say we’re very close to dating the same thing. If effort were simply about physicality Adama Traore would be Messi, the players mentally giving up is a downing of the tools at their disposal.
I do think both are different concepts. "Downing the tools" is usually used here as a criticism for players not giving their all on purpose. Our players just lack the confidence and mental strength. They lost a lot so once they go down by few goals in their own minds it's over like the previous games, but they're not giving up because they want to or because they don't care. With some more confidence or mentally stronger players you won't see this issue. Losing just brings more losses, just like how winning brings more wins.
Sancho said he trained good.
Remember Erik's first thing he said and we all loved it?
Good is not good enough.
Simple as that.
Remember Erik's first thing he said and we all loved it?
Good is not good enough.
Simple as that.
I don’t know how a football player can speak out on his manager and continue to be paid millions of dollars. If my employee speak out on me for his poor performance, I would do the PIP and he will be out the door in 1-2 months time. I think there should be a clause in the contract to protect clubs from unprofessional behavior. Clubs should be able to suspend a player without pay. I believe NBA has the ability to suspend players without pay and fine players as well. I truly think FA globally should look into such clause to punish players. I consider Sancho a unprofessional player, I can understand why he is dropped. He should be working harder to win his place back and not take a easy way out. Look at Maguire or McTominay, both contribute in our last win.
Why are you so sure that hasn't happened and this was a sort of last resort?
Shame one of them is totally wrong.