Ethnic Cleansing in Myanmar

[MDFC Manager]

Some Buddhists can be brutal, murderous cnuts. Just like some Muslims, Christians etc. Who'd have thought...

Some Nobel Peace prize winners can be vile, power hungry cnuts. Again, who'd have thought...

 

[KM]

Centre refuses to give undertaking in SC to stop deportation move against Rohingyas
(in India, where many of them are fleeing)
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ya-refugees/article19620660.ece?homepage=true


In unrelated events in my secular country:
We must accommodate Hindu Bangladeshi migrants: Modi in Assam

Edit: Bonus -
This is the judge that is hearing the case

This might sound insensitive but are we as a nation even capable of taking in more population(irrespective of the religion)? We already have it incredibly hard to give food to our population.

 

[Moonred]

This might sound insensitive but are we as a nation even capable of taking in more population(irrespective of the religion)? We already have it incredibly hard to give food to our population.

We still have some obligations(even legal ones) being a big resourceful nation in the area and regardless it's inhumane to deport people who are guaranteed to face persecution. It may not be ideal but you get my point.

 

[KM]

We still have some obligations(even legal ones) being a big resourceful nation in the area and regardless it's inhumane to deport people who are guaranteed to face persecution. It may not be ideal but you get my point.

Yeah it's inhumane and I'm not talking about them being deported(can't deport them if don't accept them *insert blackguy pointing towards his brain meme*) but India is actually in a desperate situation. We're unable to provide oxygen to young children, how on earth would we able to provide food to the refugees?

 

[berbatrick]

This might sound insensitive but are we as a nation even capable of taking in more population(irrespective of the religion)? We already have it incredibly hard to give food to our population.

Food is a different debate (about 5 years back, we had a situation where simultaneously excess foodgrains was rotting in godowns and exported as cattle fodder to Europe, while starvation deaths were making a comeback in India).
About resources: I'm not sure about the hard numbers, but a few tens of thousands spread out over a few states is nothing for a country of our size...And of course the govt was willing to open doors if the oppressor was different, which means they think they can accommodate some numbers.

 

[Neutral]

I hope you're not calling him a genocide apologist just because he thinks his religion doesn't condone violence.

I have no idea what religion he is and am not particularly interested in which religion he follows, if any. To do so would mean - I would have to think he was unable to be objective to the issue at hand.

I called him an apologist for trying to whitewash the role, monks, yes, Buddhist monks in Burma are playing in this genocide/ethnic cleansing.

So, to clarify the role of the Buddhist monks, not the genocide (personally I prefer ethnic cleansing - seeing as they'd rather expel these people rather than wipe them out)

When Muslim preachers put out fatwas left and right, willy nilly - I can say, hey...they aren't the majority, or that's not how it's meant to be, but none of that takes away from the fact - they are muslim preachers.

These are Buddhist monks - not one or two, but large umbrella organizations, putting out statements which are preaching hate and murder. Those are undeniable facts.

 

[Moonred]

Yeah it's inhumane and I'm not talking about them being deported(can't deport them if don't accept them *insert blackguy pointing towards his brain meme*) but India is actually in a desperate situation. We're unable to provide oxygen to young children, how on earth would we able to provide food to the refugees?

We already have 1000s of Rohingya refugees (now deemed illegal by the government though UN recognises them or something of that sort)
Our lack of food or 'oxygen' is more of mismanagement and incompetence than scarcity. The scale is also important as pointed out by Berbatrick.

 

[Neutral]

Yeah it's inhumane and I'm not talking about them being deported(can't deport them if don't accept them *insert blackguy pointing towards his brain meme*) but India is actually in a desperate situation. We're unable to provide oxygen to young children, how on earth would we able to provide food to the refugees?

The question isn't one of whether India can provide for them.

If it came down to it - India could register these people with UNHCR and get them to provide for them or ask an organization like the OIC to provide funding for them.

The more pertinent question is - these people will not leave. They will have children, their children will have children, some of them will marry Indians outside of refugee camps. Can and will India put up with that?

These are all very Realistic and FAIR questions to ask and they are the questions the people in power need to be asking.

 

[2cents]

I have no idea what religion he is and am not particularly interested in which religion he follows, if any. To do so would mean - I would have to think he was unable to be objective to the issue at hand.

I called him an apologist for trying to whitewash the role, monks, yes, Buddhist monks in Burma are playing in this genocide/ethnic cleansing.

So, to clarify the role of the Buddhist monks, not the genocide (personally I prefer ethnic cleansing - seeing as they'd rather expel these people rather than wipe them out)

When Muslim preachers put out fatwas left and right, willy nilly - I can say, hey...they aren't the majority, or that's not how it's meant to be, but none of that takes away from the fact - they are muslim preachers.

These are Buddhist monks - not one or two, but large umbrella organizations, putting out statements which are preaching hate and murder. Those are undeniable facts.

I don't think his/her post was any different from the type of post we see from Muslim members on the Cafe after any given incident or whatever claiming "nothing to do with Islam."

 

[Neutral]

I don't think his/her post was any different from the type of post we see from Muslim members on the Cafe after any given incident or whatever claiming "nothing to do with Islam."

And when muslim members do this...plenty of people call them out for it.

I'd like to think I was one of the Red Cafe muslims who never makes an excuse for muslim terrorists. I've got PM's from angry muslim members for saying, "until muslims stop ignoring the killing of muslims by muslims - they have no right to complain about any perceived atrocities committed by the 'infidel' "

 

[2cents]

And when muslim members do this...plenty of people call them out for it.

My impression is that they generally get called out for denying whatever aspects of the religion might be deemed relevant in the case, not for excusing or justifying the act of violence itself or individuals who may be implicated in it - your post kind of makes it seem like you're suggesting @whatwha is an apologist for the actual violence taking place rather than for whatever Buddhist teachings or figures may have played a role in it.

 

[UpWithRivers]

I'm against war and don't say this lightly....but the british, us, french, German, UN....any army should be deployed within 10 minutes of a genocide. Yes you don't know if its a genocide so soon but any reports of hacking and raping children and women should resort in immediate action. No questions asked. When boots are on the ground the politics and investigations can take place.

 

[Neutral]

My impression is that they generally get called out for denying whatever aspects of the religion might be deemed relevant in the case, not for excusing or justifying the act of violence itself or individuals who may be implicated in it - your post kind of makes it seem like you're suggesting @whatwha is an apologist for the actual violence taking place rather than for whatever Buddhist teachings or figures may have played a role in it.

Just gonna go ahead and quote myself again -

I called him an apologist for trying to whitewash the role, monks, yes, Buddhist monks in Burma are playing in this genocide/ethnic cleansing. So, to clarify the role of the Buddhist monks, not the genocide (personally I prefer ethnic cleansing - seeing as they'd rather expel these people rather than wipe them out)

If my initial post conveyed a different message - and seeing as there are 2 of you now reading it that way...I apologize for the confusion.

I'm not backtracking from my assertions about the monks - and I'll proactively volunteer, Gautam Buddha and the religion he left behind is uniquely benign. But, that doesn't take away from what Buddhist monks in Burma are currently doing.

 

[RedTiger]

My impression is that they generally get called out for denying whatever aspects of the religion might be deemed relevant in the case, not for excusing or justifying the act of violence itself or individuals who may be implicated in it - your post kind of makes it seem like you're suggesting @whatwha is an apologist for the actual violence taking place rather than for whatever Buddhist teachings or figures may have played a role in it.

We've had people espouse the no true Scotsman fallacy and they have been called out for it, the previous poster was saying that the monk can't be Buddhist because Buddhists don't believe in a doctrine of violence. Whether there's a religious angle to the Rakhine violence is debatable, what isn't debatable is the fact that Ashin Wirathu is an established member of the Theravada Priesthood whose pronouncements do hold sway over a large chunk of the Bamar population.

 

[Neutral]

I'm against war and don't say this lightly....but the british, us, french, German, UN....any army should be deployed within 10 minutes of a genocide. Yes you don't know if its a genocide so soon but any reports of hacking and raping children and women should resort in immediate action. No questions asked. When boots are on the ground the politics and investigations can take place.

Tbf the West does. People always bitch about the west - but, the west has also time and time again, stepped in when it really counted.

The situation in Burma is really not that complex - Myanmar isn't some isolated nation run by despots where the west holds no sway. But the authorities have judged the mood of the world quite well and know - there will be condemnations and face saving shows of 'concern' and nothing more.

 

[2cents]

We've had people espouse the no true Scotsman fallacy and they have been called out for it, the previous poster was saying that the monk can't be Buddhist because Buddhists don't believe in a doctrine of violence. Whether there's a religious angle to the Rakhine violence is debatable, what isn't debatable is the fact that Ashin Wirathu is an established member of the Theravada Priesthood whose pronouncements do hold sway over a large chunk of the Bamar population.

I don't see where he/she's said that. It would be a ridiculous thing to say but probably not enough to warrant the response from a generally reasonable guy like @Neutral.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Tbf the West does. People always bitch about the west - but, the west has also time and time again, stepped in when it really counted.

The situation in Burma is really not that complex - Myanmar isn't some isolated nation run by despots where the west holds no sway. But the authorities have judged the mood of the world quite well and know - there will be condemnations and face saving shows of 'concern' and nothing more.

Umm no the west doesn't intervene. What about Rwanda, Khmer Rouge and all these ignored by american and other presidents:
Of genocides ignored by US Presidents, these are body counts from highest to lowest:
Franklin Roosevelt and the Holocaust-12 million dead.
Nixon and Genocide in Bangladesh- Up to 3 million dead.
Clinton and Rwandan Genocide- 800,000 dead.
Polk, Fillmore, Buchanan, and California Indian Genocide- Up to 300,000 dead.
Ford and East Timor Genocide- 200,000 dead.
Jefferson and Haitian Genocide- 170,000 dead.
Nixon's betrayal of Kurds, leading to genocide-100,000 deaths.
It goes on.....

 

[RedTiger]

I don't see where he/she's said that. It would be a ridiculous thing to say but probably not enough to warrant the response from a generally reasonable guy like @Neutral.

I was referring to this part of the post:

I think it's a bit disgusting that Time are trying to make a point out of the Burmese majority being Buddhist, or of the so-called monk being Buddhist,

I may have read it in the wrong way though in which case best to ignore my post.

 

[Amar__]

Saw some pictures on facebook, absolutely sickening stuff. I couldn't scroll more after seeing just two or three pictures. I hope cnuts responsible for this die from toughest disease possible.

 

[Adisa]

What is our Nobel Peace laureate saying?

 

[RedTiger]

What is our Nobel Peace laureate saying?

She hasn't said a word since August. The Indonesian foreign minister had a meeting with Suu Kyi and Myanmar's army chief General Hlaing yesterday, other than that she's been quiet.

 

[sammsky1]

Desperate Rohingya Flee Myanmar on Trail of Suffering. ‘It Is All Gone.’
By HANNAH BEECHSEPT. 2, 2017

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/02/world/asia/rohingya-myanmar-bangladesh-refugees-massacre.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

 

[The Outsider]

I would suspect money is at the heart of this and perhaps some mining conglomerate has discovered some deposits of something valuable with pay-offs or favours for those that facilitate access. This would also probably involve clearing land. Very sad and no public commentary yet in the UK.

 

[ghagua]

I'm against war and don't say this lightly....but the british, us, french, German, UN....any army should be deployed within 10 minutes of a genocide. Yes you don't know if its a genocide so soon but any reports of hacking and raping children and women should resort in immediate action. No questions asked. When boots are on the ground the politics and investigations can take place.

No oil over there to fight for, so no interest.

 

[Brwned]

I'm not contesting this. I just find what Time does to be dishonest. And I find Neutral's post to be DEEPLY offensive. Don't you? Because I wish to defend Buddhism I am a fecking supporter of genocide?!

Your defence of Buddhism is the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, so you're doing more harm than good on that front.

 

[PedroMendez]

We could just look at what the (thought-)leaders who foster this conflict say, if we want to figure out the role of religion?

wirathu&co seem to use primarily racist/ethnic/economic/social justifications for their hate. Not theological ones. That said there are only few statements translated into english, so it could be misleading without being able to understand what he says to his own constituency.

 

[Brwned]

We could just look at what the (thought-)leaders who foster this conflict say, if we want to figure out the role of religion?

wirathu&co seem to use primarily racist/ethnic/economic/social justifications for their hate. Not theological ones. That said there are only few statements translated into english, so it could be misleading without being able to understand what he says to his own constituency.

I think most people would agree it's primarily an example of ethnonationalism but it's not difficult to see that religion is at the very least being used as a lazy proxy by some, as per @Neutral's post earlier in the thread:

The day the pamphlet was distributed, a Buddhist monk in Sittwe who spearheaded the effort told Human Rights Watch:

This morning we handed our pamphlet out downtown [in Sittwe]. It is an announcement demanding that the Arakanese people must not sell anything to the Muslims or buy anything from them. The second point is the Arakanese people must not be friendly with the Muslim people. The reason for that is that the Muslim people are stealing our land, drinking our water, and killing our people. They are eating our rice and staying near our houses. So we will separate. We don’t want any connection to the Muslim people at all.

 

[PedroMendez]

I don't think anyone questions that, the cleavages run along ethnic and religious lines (both are more or less the same in this instance). It is also a fairly well established fact that Buddhists including those who are part of the recognised/accepted hirachy participate in these atrocities.
It's still a difference if guys like wirathu use Buddhist teaching to justify their actions or if they use ethno-nationalistic messages. Both would be equally wrong, but point to different underlying motivations.
From my limited knowledge ethno nationalism and it's racist underpinnings play a major role here.
Still I wouldn't say that religion plays no role at all (just not the dominant one). There seem to be various historic examples (e.g. Sri Lanka), where Buddhism becomes rather intolerant in nations where it forms an alliance/symbiosis with the state. Overall I can see some parallels between Burma and Sri Lanka. Additionally some of his messages point towards a historic narrative of competition between the two faith's ("Muslims are going to take over if we don't defend ourselves").

 

[CircusMonkey]

The monk veered right of the middle path ages ago, he is as Buddhist as i am marxist. He just will never give up his 'monk privilege' as it gives him the platform to spout his islamaphobic nationalist bile.

Ease up on the Discourse as it never encourages violence or hatred towards anything.

 

[barros]

Now I know why aliens stay away from our planet

 

[The United]

The monk veered right of the middle path ages ago, he is as Buddhist as i am marxist. He just will never give up his 'monk privilege' as it gives him the platform to spout his islamaphobic nationalist bile.

That is what it is. Using religions is very effective.

The leading monks are nothing but thugs in my eyes.

Su kyi has massive problem dealing with it. What people outside don't know is how much pressure she is getting from a lot of people in Burma for not standing up against 'violent people' in the area.

Burmeses generally accept both Buddhist and Muslim Arakaneses as one of their miniority. But not so much with their so called 'rohinga'.

The fact that many of them don't or can't speak either arakanese or burmese despite 'living in burma for generations' does not help anything there to integrate them into so called ' majority's society'. Many there seem to think that the muslims rohingas are invading and swallowing their culture and lands.

It has been going on for ages. And there are many many factors and reasons involved that no leaders of the current government could solve it easily in a short while. Some of their own Muslims representatives that were hired by the government to help the whole situation were killed violently by some nutters there for ' being government's man'. So no one even dares to talk to the government for anything.

The genocide accusations are pretty serious though. Especially, only military can approach any of rohinga villages with fully equipment usually. The rest don't even get close. The area is 97% muslim rohinga. If you are not one of them, you will be in pretty much serious trouble around there.

The military usually leave the area as it is except when they get attacked. The attackers usually run into the villages hiding. When the government troops come searching, all shits happen for various reasons from not willing to cooperate for the fear of getting killed later or actively helping terrorism to hoping to get some free shit or help from outside by playing 'refugees'. And some apparently even came from refugees camp in Bangladesh.

The Buddhist and other minorities have always fled from the violences that caused by some extremists as well in the area.

The area itself is very messed up.

P.s before anyone accusing me of being apologist to genicides or nuttes from everywhere, i have many arakanese relatives living there. I don't believe in any religions. I am against wirathu organization. I have been to those areas a few times and am just stating some of the stuff I saw and heard I got from 'the other side'.

It was just to show how complicated this issue is at the moment. It is not that very simple to say that a government organization is killing people for genocidal purpose. And it won't be entirely true or fair. As usual with these kind of headlines, the agenda or narratives that doesn't suit will be left out.

Some people or countries probably have not overreacted because some of them are probably well informed about the situations. At least by the government people.

 

[Neutral]

The spineless power hungry putrid lying cnut has spoken -

'The govt is protecting everyone in Rakhine state in the best way possible'

Yup, 125,000 people have streamed into refugee camps in butt poor, unwelcoming Bangladesh for a bit of family camping and fun.

cnut.

 

[RedTiger]

Myanmar Says Clearing of Rohingya Is Unfinished Business From WWII

https://www.wsj.com/articles/myanmar-army-chief-defends-clearing-rohingya-villages-1504410530

 

[Zlatattack]

I don't know why people expect an international response. Surely Kashmir is an example of how little the international community care. People all over the world care, but governments do not.

If Muslim people want an international response to issues affecting Muslims then they need to create a political body responsible for just that. It used to be called the Caliphate.

 

[VidaRed]

I don't know why people expect an international response. Surely Kashmir is an example of how little the international community care. People all over the world care, but governments do not.

If Muslim people want an international response to issues affecting Muslims then they need to create a political body responsible for just that. It used to be called the Caliphate.

Your comparing kashmir with this genocide ?

 

[VidaRed]

Centre refuses to give undertaking in SC to stop deportation move against Rohingyas
(in India, where many of them are fleeing)
http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ya-refugees/article19620660.ece?homepage=true


In unrelated events in my secular country:
We must accommodate Hindu Bangladeshi migrants: Modi in Assam

Edit: Bonus -
This is the judge that is hearing the case

Identifying Rohingyas to deport, says Centre as PM visits Myanmar

NEW DELHI: On Tuesday, as Prime Minister Narendra Modi began his official visit to Myanmar, the Centre said that it has started the process of identifying Rohingya refugees in India so that they could be deported since they are illegal immigrants to the country.

Minister of state for home Kiren Rijiju said on Tuesday that the government has set up a task force to identify Rohingyas in different states where they have taken refuge so that the process of deporting them can begin. The minister was replying to questions on what the government had decided on the issue of Rohingya refugees who have entered India illegally

He also criticised rights organisations for their "unncessesarily" accusing India of following a "harsh" policy.

"International organisations are unnecessarily accusing India of being harsh on Rohingyas, who are illegal immigrants in India and have no legal reason to remain here. Having said that, I would say that we are not throwing them into the ocean and shooting them, we are only identifying them to deport them. So why are we being accused of being inhuman?" Rijiju asked.

Although a reiteration of the Centre's known stand, Rijiju's comments may appear significant because they come amid growing advocacy in certain quarters to allow the refugees to settle down here on the ground that they have no place to go.

Rohingyas have approached the Supreme Court against the Centre's deportation plan, while Amnesty International weighed in for them, asking the PM to protect them instead of threatening them with deportation.

"We have told states to create task forces to identify them, wherever they are, to start the process of deporting them," Rijiju replied, adding, "India has absorbed maximum number of refugees, so nobody should tell India on how to deal with refugees."

The minister was addressing a press conference on the development of northeastern states when he was asked about the Rohingyas. With the PM visiting Myanmar, Amnesty International on Tuesday urged him to push the country's leadership to provide assistance to Rohingyas in the violence-hit Rakhine state. The rights body also said that the Modi government should "reaffirm" its commitment to protect Rohingya refugees and asylum-seekers in India instead of "threatening" them with deportation.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ort-rohingyas-rijiju/articleshow/60381656.cms

 

[VP]

I don't know why people expect an international response. Surely Kashmir is an example of how little the international community care. People all over the world care, but governments do not.

If Muslim people want an international response to issues affecting Muslims then they need to create a political body responsible for just that. It used to be called the Caliphate.

Yes, a caliphate is exactly what is needed to promote a more secular,tolerant society.

 

[RedTiger]

Yes, a caliphate is exactly what is needed to promote a more secular,tolerant society.

I think that's his point.

 

[EyeInTheSky]

Watched the news last night, saw some guy walking knee deep in what looked like a flood plane pulling a thin rope only to see that he was pulling dead floating bodies of numerous people kind of daisy chained together by the rope.

This is sickening.

 

[MoBeats]

I've seen some utterly horrendous things this last couple of weeks on my Facebook feed, I try not to but the new Facebook updates starts a video when you're just scrolling.
No one should have to endure such torture, I thought as a species we might have been beyond this.