Ethnic Cleansing in Myanmar

Zlatattack

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:rolleyes: Yes, a caliphate is exactly what is needed to promote a more secular,tolerant society.
Please don't judge a cornerstone of governnance in Muslim society for 1400 years by the actions of a fanatical group. No method of governance is perfect, but caliphate has worked for Muslims for a very long time. Read The Ordinances of Government by Al Mawardi to get an overview of what is required/expected of it.

The fact of the matter is the EU and the "white world" is protected by NATO. The Russians and the Chinese are military and economic superpowers in their own right. The Indians aspire to be the same. If Muslim countries want to have influence and an equal say they either individually need to become super powers (not possible in my opinion, most Muslim countries don't even have first world living standards), or they need to combine their resources and efforts (like the EU).

If there was threat of a credible military response, this would not have happened in Burma. Pakistan and India would be sat on the table talking about Kashmir, Israel would not be commiting genocide in Palestine. You cannot negociate from a position of weakness and expect fairness or parity. Until Muslim society accepts this and puts the collective good ahead of individual good, we will be treated unfairly.
 

Zlatattack

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I've seen some utterly horrendous things this last couple of weeks on my Facebook feed, I try not to but the new Facebook updates starts a video when you're just scrolling.
No one should have to endure such torture, I thought as a species we might have been beyond this.
there's a setting you can change to stop that. it'll also save your data. Google it.
 

MJJ

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RedTiger

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http://amp.indiatimes.com/news/indi...a-country-like-egypt-for-one-year-261825.html

India wasted more food than the UK produces so not having enough food to feed the population is more by inefficiency or a lack of caring than shortage of resources.
concerning the food waste: south Asia is mostly rural folk who don't have access to refrigeration meaning alot of fresh produce becomes bad if not consumed within a couple of days. Also the figures that were published last week included the waste from extravagant weddings.
 

VidaRed

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Please don't judge a cornerstone of governnance in Muslim society for 1400 years by the actions of a fanatical group. No method of governance is perfect, but caliphate has worked for Muslims for a very long time. Read The Ordinances of Government by Al Mawardi to get an overview of what is required/expected of it.

The fact of the matter is the EU and the "white world" is protected by NATO. The Russians and the Chinese are military and economic superpowers in their own right. The Indians aspire to be the same. If Muslim countries want to have influence and an equal say they either individually need to become super powers (not possible in my opinion, most Muslim countries don't even have first world living standards), or they need to combine their resources and efforts (like the EU).

If there was threat of a credible military response, this would not have happened in Burma. Pakistan and India would be sat on the table talking about Kashmir, Israel would not be commiting genocide in Palestine. You cannot negociate from a position of weakness and expect fairness or parity. Until Muslim society accepts this and puts the collective good ahead of individual good, we will be treated unfairly.
Who's stopping you lot from being in a south asian block ? At the end of the day you're not arabs, turks or persian. People in west asia are more concerned about there tribe than religion. Muslim tag is meaningless because its too diverse and its a large group ranging from white to black and everyone in between.
 

VP

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Please don't judge a cornerstone of governnance in Muslim society for 1400 years by the actions of a fanatical group. No method of governance is perfect, but caliphate has worked for Muslims for a very long time. Read The Ordinances of Government by Al Mawardi to get an overview of what is required/expected of it.

The fact of the matter is the EU and the "white world" is protected by NATO. The Russians and the Chinese are military and economic superpowers in their own right. The Indians aspire to be the same. If Muslim countries want to have influence and an equal say they either individually need to become super powers (not possible in my opinion, most Muslim countries don't even have first world living standards), or they need to combine their resources and efforts (like the EU).

If there was threat of a credible military response, this would not have happened in Burma. Pakistan and India would be sat on the table talking about Kashmir, Israel would not be commiting genocide in Palestine. You cannot negociate from a position of weakness and expect fairness or parity. Until Muslim society accepts this and puts the collective good ahead of individual good, we will be treated unfairly.
That's a terrible idea and will just hurt integration. I find it bizarre and dangerous that an Indonesian Muslim should empathize more with a Palestinian than a Christian Indonesian - some would say it's religious solidarity, I'd say it's closer to bigotry.
 

Zlatattack

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That's a terrible idea and will just hurt integration. I find it bizarre and dangerous that an Indonesian Muslim should empathize more with a Palestinian than a Christian Indonesian - some would say it's religious solidarity, I'd say it's closer to bigotry.
It's a Muslim thing, it's about unity with those within your faith, not exclusion for those outside it. I feel bad about taking the attention away from the suffering of the Rohingya people. If you want to talk about this in more detail, please open another topic.
 

VidaRed

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It's a Muslim thing, it's about unity with those within your faith, not exclusion for those outside it. I feel bad about taking the attention away from the suffering of the Rohingya people. If you want to talk about this in more detail, please open another topic.
I couldn't give a shite about a bosnian muslim or for that matter any bosnian or any person half a world away. Similarly im sure that bosnian muslim doesn't give a shite about me (Indian muslim) either.

Do you see any muslims getting wound up in bosnia about these rohingyas ? They dont and neither do the arabs.
 
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Neutral

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I see the Nobel winning cnut compared the situation in Rakhine and the Rohingya with Kashmir.

Really...I don't recall the Indian government forcing Kashmiri muslims to leave Kashmir and denying them citizenship or for that matter the Rohingya wanting independence or autonomy.
 

Nikhil

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I see the Nobel winning cnut compared the situation in Rakhine and the Rohingya with Kashmir.

Really...I don't recall the Indian government forcing Kashmiri muslims to leave Kashmir and denying them citizenship or for that matter the Rohingya wanting independence or autonomy.
Wow. Aung San Suu Kyi actually said that? Stupid ignorant git. But I don't expect the international media to challenge her on that. They've always had anti-India blinkers on. They'll run with this story.
 

berbatrick

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I see the Nobel winning cnut compared the situation in Rakhine and the Rohingya with Kashmir.

Really...I don't recall the Indian government forcing Kashmiri muslims to leave Kashmir and denying them citizenship or for that matter the Rohingya wanting independence or autonomy.
Yup. However much I disagree with the repression in Kashmir, this is orders of magnitude apart in scope and also context.
 

Zlatattack

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I see the Nobel winning cnut compared the situation in Rakhine and the Rohingya with Kashmir.

Really...I don't recall the Indian government forcing Kashmiri muslims to leave Kashmir and denying them citizenship or for that matter the Rohingya wanting independence or autonomy.
Even as a Kashmiri I can agree with that. The Indians aren't committing full scale ethnic cleansing.
 

Neutral

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Well the cnuts are succeeding with their plans...


270,000 out of a population of 1.1 mil have escaped into Bangladesh in the past couple of weeks. The cnuts have already stated those who left won't be allowed back in - because, hey...being Rohingya, the govt has refused to give them documentation...so they don't exist. Despite the UNHCR registering them as they flood into Bangladesh.

 
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MDFC Manager

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Lot of sickening, gory stuff floating around on Facebook. Makes the ISIS/Assad atrocities seem docile in comparison.
 

Neutral

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Her reputation must be in tatters over all that's gone on... Can they retrospectively strip her of the nobel peace price
what would be the point? It would be a completely empty gesture - which changes nothing.

The 'goodwill' she has built up is incredible - anyone else and they'd be called a power hungry, immoral charlatan - but, with her...it's wait all wait and see and carefully worded statements.
 

Neutral

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And those villages will never be populated by the people who left - The cnuts will never allow them to return.

number of refugees who have escaped into Bangladesh over the past 3 weeks - 370,000
 
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Nikhil

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Please don't judge a cornerstone of governnance in Muslim society for 1400 years by the actions of a fanatical group. No method of governance is perfect, but caliphate has worked for Muslims for a very long time. Read The Ordinances of Government by Al Mawardi to get an overview of what is required/expected of it.

The fact of the matter is the EU and the "white world" is protected by NATO. The Russians and the Chinese are military and economic superpowers in their own right. The Indians aspire to be the same. If Muslim countries want to have influence and an equal say they either individually need to become super powers (not possible in my opinion, most Muslim countries don't even have first world living standards), or they need to combine their resources and efforts (like the EU).

If there was threat of a credible military response, this would not have happened in Burma. Pakistan and India would be sat on the table talking about Kashmir, Israel would not be commiting genocide in Palestine. You cannot negociate from a position of weakness and expect fairness or parity. Until Muslim society accepts this and puts the collective good ahead of individual good, we will be treated unfairly.
Where do you live?
 

Nikhil

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In the UK. I'm also a Pakistani national. Why?
Well you seem to be advocating for a Muslim caliphate whilst living in the West under Western law. A caliphatte would undoubtedly consist of countries with very questionable regimes that would be anti-West. Also religious minorities would be under even more danger than they are in now in those countries. Is there even a single Muslim majority country where minorities feel safe and are treated with respect?
 

Zlatattack

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Well you seem to be advocating for a Muslim caliphate whilst living in the West under Western law. A caliphatte would undoubtedly consist of countries with very questionable regimes that would be anti-West. Also religious minorities would be under even more danger than they are in now in those countries. Is there even a single Muslim majority country where minorities feel safe and are treated with respect?
Look I live wherever I like. If I could make more money somewhere warmer I'd move. All human beings want a good standard of living. If any state complied with Islamic principles we'd have that.

The system of social welfare in nordic countries is compatible with an ideal Islamic state. The communist ideals of state ownership of state assets is compatible with the ideals of an Islamic state. Capital punishment is as compatible with the Islamic legal system as liberal minded concept like putting people in rehab instead of prison.

Don't judge the idea of an islamic state by the low standards of today's Muslim states. Think about it yourself. If they fitted the requirements would Muslims all over the world be wanting an actual country built on Islamic values? There isn't a single one. Kingdoms, banana Republics, dictatorships, they don't count.

Also what makes you think it'd be anti western? It'd simply be pro Muslim. Minorities have flourished in Muslim countries historically. Jews escaped persecution from Europe to the east. After a thousand years of the Mughal empire there was no shortage of Hindus in India. Christianity and Judaism are all over the Arab world. The conflict has been in the last 100 years - even less. You all read about Anne Frank, Schindler etc, but you never read about the Jews hidden from Nazis in the grand mosque of Paris.

Back in the 80/90s the St George's cross got a bad rep because it was symbolic with racists. English people reclaimed it for what it actually was. Islamic symbology has the same issue today.

The Islamic state is an ideal, it's a historic fact, it's a whole different way to live life. It's not a terrorist group and thier exploits. It's not the third world countries occupied by Muslims today.

The symbol on the isis flag is the seal of the Prophet. It's sacred. This symbol was used by the caliphs to seal official documentation. Its not something every Tom dick and Harry can bandy about.

The Arabic writing on the black flag is the shahada. It's a declaration of faith, the cornerstone of being Muslim, not an Al muhajiroun banner.

The so called jihadi salute, the 1 finger, it's also symbolic of the shahada. It's performed as part of the 5 daily prayers by all Muslims (albeit our hands be on our laps at the time). Today it's only associated with terrorism.

Normal Muslims need to take ownership of these concepts and ideas to deny the extremists the room to abuse it. That's part of what I'm trying to do.

No Muslim leader wants an islamic state, they would lose power. No political parties represent the concept because they wouldn't have such a powerful role in it. All of our so called countries and leaders chase wealth over welfare. That's why so many try to escape to countries with better leadership. If we had a state made of Islamic principles, that wouldn't be the case.
 

RedTiger

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Look I live wherever I like. If I could make more money somewhere warmer I'd move. All human beings want a good standard of living. If any state complied with Islamic principles we'd have that.

The system of social welfare in nordic countries is compatible with an ideal Islamic state. The communist ideals of state ownership of state assets is compatible with the ideals of an Islamic state. Capital punishment is as compatible with the Islamic legal system as liberal minded concept like putting people in rehab instead of prison.

Don't judge the idea of an islamic state by the low standards of today's Muslim states. Think about it yourself. If they fitted the requirements would Muslims all over the world be wanting an actual country built on Islamic values? There isn't a single one. Kingdoms, banana Republics, dictatorships, they don't count.

Also what makes you think it'd be anti western? It'd simply be pro Muslim. Minorities have flourished in Muslim countries historically. Jews escaped persecution from Europe to the east. After a thousand years of the Mughal empire there was no shortage of Hindus in India. Christianity and Judaism are all over the Arab world. The conflict has been in the last 100 years - even less. You all read about Anne Frank, Schindler etc, but you never read about the Jews hidden from Nazis in the grand mosque of Paris.

Back in the 80/90s the St George's cross got a bad rep because it was symbolic with racists. English people reclaimed it for what it actually was. Islamic symbology has the same issue today.

The Islamic state is an ideal, it's a historic fact, it's a whole different way to live life. It's not a terrorist group and thier exploits. It's not the third world countries occupied by Muslims today.

The symbol on the isis flag is the seal of the Prophet. It's sacred. This symbol was used by the caliphs to seal official documentation. Its not something every Tom dick and Harry can bandy about.

The Arabic writing on the black flag is the shahada. It's a declaration of faith, the cornerstone of being Muslim, not an Al muhajiroun banner.

The so called jihadi salute, the 1 finger, it's also symbolic of the shahada. It's performed as part of the 5 daily prayers by all Muslims (albeit our hands be on our laps at the time). Today it's only associated with terrorism.

Normal Muslims need to take ownership of these concepts and ideas to deny the extremists the room to abuse it. That's part of what I'm trying to do.

No Muslim leader wants an islamic state, they would lose power. No political parties represent the concept because they wouldn't have such a powerful role in it. All of our so called countries and leaders chase wealth over welfare. That's why so many try to escape to countries with better leadership. If we had a state made of Islamic principles, that wouldn't be the case.
true that.
 

Zlatattack

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It's really hard for me to explain what an islamic state should be in detail. Firstly because I don't know all the answers myself, I'm a student of Islam not a teacher. Secondly because like any Ideology it's HUGE. It's like trying to describe communism or socialism or capitalism. How can you do it justice without years of learning and teaching?

What I can say is that it's not represented by terrorists or by Muslims countries today. Some countries are closer than others but all are flawed. Is there a perfect democracy? Of course not.

I think if the whole thing in a more fluid manner. Kind of like the EU. That would be a good starting point.
 

PedroMendez

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Caliphates are not just a theoretical concept but also a historical fact. While I am hardly particularly knowledgeable about this part of history, it's enough to know that non of them look particularly good, if judged by today's standards.
 

MJJ

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Look I live wherever I like. If I could make more money somewhere warmer I'd move. All human beings want a good standard of living. If any state complied with Islamic principles we'd have that.

The system of social welfare in nordic countries is compatible with an ideal Islamic state. The communist ideals of state ownership of state assets is compatible with the ideals of an Islamic state. Capital punishment is as compatible with the Islamic legal system as liberal minded concept like putting people in rehab instead of prison.

Don't judge the idea of an islamic state by the low standards of today's Muslim states. Think about it yourself. If they fitted the requirements would Muslims all over the world be wanting an actual country built on Islamic values? There isn't a single one. Kingdoms, banana Republics, dictatorships, they don't count.

Also what makes you think it'd be anti western? It'd simply be pro Muslim. Minorities have flourished in Muslim countries historically. Jews escaped persecution from Europe to the east. After a thousand years of the Mughal empire there was no shortage of Hindus in India. Christianity and Judaism are all over the Arab world. The conflict has been in the last 100 years - even less. You all read about Anne Frank, Schindler etc, but you never read about the Jews hidden from Nazis in the grand mosque of Paris.

Back in the 80/90s the St George's cross got a bad rep because it was symbolic with racists. English people reclaimed it for what it actually was. Islamic symbology has the same issue today.

The Islamic state is an ideal, it's a historic fact, it's a whole different way to live life. It's not a terrorist group and thier exploits. It's not the third world countries occupied by Muslims today.

The symbol on the isis flag is the seal of the Prophet. It's sacred. This symbol was used by the caliphs to seal official documentation. Its not something every Tom dick and Harry can bandy about.

The Arabic writing on the black flag is the shahada. It's a declaration of faith, the cornerstone of being Muslim, not an Al muhajiroun banner.

The so called jihadi salute, the 1 finger, it's also symbolic of the shahada. It's performed as part of the 5 daily prayers by all Muslims (albeit our hands be on our laps at the time). Today it's only associated with terrorism.

Normal Muslims need to take ownership of these concepts and ideas to deny the extremists the room to abuse it. That's part of what I'm trying to do.

No Muslim leader wants an islamic state, they would lose power. No political parties represent the concept because they wouldn't have such a powerful role in it. All of our so called countries and leaders chase wealth over welfare. That's why so many try to escape to countries with better leadership. If we had a state made of Islamic principles, that wouldn't be the case.
Excellent post.
 

ghagua

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Well you seem to be advocating for a Muslim caliphate whilst living in the West under Western law. A caliphatte would undoubtedly consist of countries with very questionable regimes that would be anti-West. Also religious minorities would be under even more danger than they are in now in those countries. Is there even a single Muslim majority country where minorities feel safe and are treated with respect?
Bangladesh. Yes minorities are treated with respect and they do feel safe, well as safe as a Muslim would feel. Cannot answer for other countries because have lived in any of them, but there are other countries where people feel safe and are respected.

BTW, how are the Dalits and other "untouchable" groups treated in India. Are they treated with respect, do they feel safe in their own country? Everyone has a dirty secret, so lets not only point fingers at Muslims. Shite happens in all religion and all cultures.
 

Kapardin

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BTW, how are the Dalits and other "untouchable" groups treated in India. Are they treated with respect, do they feel safe in their own country? Everyone has a dirty secret, so lets not only point fingers at Muslims. Shite happens in all religion and all cultures.
It is not so similar with muslim majority countries. While there are progressive states like UAE or Jordan, the problems that minorities face in a sharia-ruled state is far bigger than what any dalit may face in India.

The caste based reservation is more of a social rather than a religious issue in India nowadays. "Dalit" is not even a religious caste - the old system had 4 castes and no "OBC", MBC", "Dalit", "Chettiar", "Nadar" etc. In addition, muslims and christians who don't have caste in their ideology are also classified under some of these castes!

(My personal opinion is that all reservation based on castes should be abolished and economic help should be provided to the backward).

Oppression based on caste happens only in tribal areas. Untouchability is hardly practised by anyone, otherwise we as a country would be in dire straits if it was a major issue in key cities/towns. Go to any city and there is zero discrimination. Heck, most of the reservation quotas are skewed towards the so-called lower castes anyway.

If tribals in some villages practice things like untouchability, that is simply a fact of life in the backwaters of any country. If you take even developed nations like the US, the deep south has some uneducated bigots there as well. Lack of education is a factor.

Also what makes you think it'd be anti western? It'd simply be pro Muslim. Minorities have flourished in Muslim countries historically. Jews escaped persecution from Europe to the east. After a thousand years of the Mughal empire there was no shortage of Hindus in India. Christianity and Judaism are all over the Arab world. The conflict has been in the last 100 years - even less. You all read about Anne Frank, Schindler etc, but you never read about the Jews hidden from Nazis in the grand mosque of Paris.
Bit of revisionism there. Hindus did struggle during the Mughal period. Especially during the reigns of Babar and Aurangzeb, who were radicals in modern terms. That they survived cannot be credited to the Mughal rulers.

Any state founded on a religious ideology is a dangerous idea. Firstly, it conveys the idea of the inherent superiority of a religion that only its' followers can accept. Secondly, one ruler may be benevolent, but there is no guarantee his successor will not be a radical and in time, it may all descend into chaos. Thirdly, a religious state implies that there will be blasphemy laws and no criticism of the majority religion will be tolerated. So, less freedom of speech.

Religion should never be used to unite people. It always leads to trouble.

The model state is a secular one. I for one prefer the secularism of countries like Australia (the country I stayed for a long period, hence my reference), where you can say whatever the hell you want and get away with it. Even in India, we do not have that level of secularism yet.
 

ghagua

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How are Bangladesh coping with the people being driven out? I think they're talking about 400 thousand having crossed the border.
Don't think they will cope very unfortunately. There are so many issues that this will bring up. Poverty, lack of available land to accommodate such huge amount of people.
 

ghagua

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It is not so similar with muslim majority countries. While there are progressive states like UAE or Jordan, the problems that minorities face in a sharia-ruled state is far bigger than what any dalit may face in India.

The caste based reservation is more of a social rather than a religious issue in India nowadays. "Dalit" is not even a religious caste - the old system had 4 castes and no "OBC", MBC", "Dalit", "Chettiar", "Nadar" etc. In addition, muslims and christians who don't have caste in their ideology are also classified under some of these castes!

(My personal opinion is that all reservation based on castes should be abolished and economic help should be provided to the backward).

Oppression based on caste happens only in tribal areas. Untouchability is hardly practised by anyone, otherwise we as a country would be in dire straits if it was a major issue in key cities/towns. Go to any city and there is zero discrimination. Heck, most of the reservation quotas are skewed towards the so-called lower castes anyway.

If tribals in some villages practice things like untouchability, that is simply a fact of life in the backwaters of any country. If you take even developed nations like the US, the deep south has some uneducated bigots there as well. Lack of education is a factor.



Bit of revisionism there. Hindus did struggle during the Mughal period. Especially during the reigns of Babar and Aurangzeb, who were radicals in modern terms. That they survived cannot be credited to the Mughal rulers.

Any state founded on a religious ideology is a dangerous idea. Firstly, it conveys the idea of the inherent superiority of a religion that only its' followers can accept. Secondly, one ruler may be benevolent, but there is no guarantee his successor will not be a radical and in time, it may all descend into chaos. Thirdly, a religious state implies that there will be blasphemy laws and no criticism of the majority religion will be tolerated. So, less freedom of speech.

Religion should never be used to unite people. It always leads to trouble.

The model state is a secular one. I for one prefer the secularism of countries like Australia (the country I stayed for a long period, hence my reference), where you can say whatever the hell you want and get away with it. Even in India, we do not have that level of secularism yet.
With all due respect, they are different and yet the same. People mistreated or killed for belonging to a different religion or caste. You may not want to believe that the caste system or untouchability is practiced by "anyone" these days, but either you are living in denial or are extremely naive. This is not an attack on your religion or country, but I am merely pointing out the same shite exists everywhere.
 

KM

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Bangladesh. Yes minorities are treated with respect and they do feel safe, well as safe as a Muslim would feel. Cannot answer for other countries because have lived in any of them, but there are other countries where people feel safe and are respected.

BTW, how are the Dalits and other "untouchable" groups treated in India. Are they treated with respect, do they feel safe in their own country? Everyone has a dirty secret, so lets not only point fingers at Muslims. Shite happens in all religion and all cultures.
A dalit person is the President of India right now FWIW. Rural India has a lot of problems but that problem isn't much in Urban India or Educated India, I feel no Asian country can truly hold their head high when it comes to treating minorities although India is better than most in Asia. It's not talked about here because they're not Islamic but have a read about the state of Hindus in Pakistan.
 

pjaya

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Sorry correct me if I am wrong

It seems this happened after weeks of sectarian disputes including an allegedly gang rape and murder of a Rakhine woman by Rohingyas and killing of ten Burmese Muslims by Rakhines.On 8 June 2012, Rohingyas started to burn Rakhine's Buddhist and other ethnic houses after returning from Friday's prayers in Maungdaw township. More than a dozen residents were killed in this riot by Rohingya Muslims