I’m aware, and agree, on all counts.
Euro 96 Relived | LIVE NOW ON ITV4/ITV HUB: England v Scotland
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Enjoyed it back then as much as I do now, but each to their own.
World cup 1998 was as good as a WC as any tournament today. Euro 96 wasn't a great tournament by contrast, averaged 2.08 goals per game, lowest of any international tournament since 1980, including both the poorly rated 1990 and 2010 WC's.
England fans wax lyrical over both Italia 90 and Euro 96, but they were both shit to watch. Euro 2000 was much better and I would rather have ITV stuck all 31 matches of that on instead.
I certainly don’t miss older football from a quality perspective. Both offensively and defensively (and the bit in between) is of a visibly higher standard today.
That said, sometimes I look at the game today and think it’s too, I dunno, ‘hard’. The tactical astuteness and positioning/low blocks makes it hard to score goals sometimes, and the fact that all teams in the PL have strong and fast players in all defensive positions sometimes makes it harder for more talented players to exert an advantage over them. Of course, you occasionally get teams that are much better than everyone else, but on the whole, the game seemed more open back then, albeit of lesser quality.
In the mid 90s you could have Zidane or Gascoigne playing centre mid in a 442. Today you would get all the stuff Pogba gets if you tried to play them there. Teams could line up with one midfielder to do a bit of tackling, then a Gascoigne and two wingers to do the rest. Nobody was really playing through teams with the same quality back then or the same numbers, so you could get away with it. Now that area has to be so secure.
Beckham made his debut in September 96 v Moldova, first game after euro 96.
Even though Man. United won the double in 96 think the Nevilles were only players there. Butt and Beckham too young, Andy Cole overlooked and I presume Pallister was injured?
It's really interesting looking at the make up of the squad, so much representation from the leagues. Two players from Nottingham Forest, one from Rangers (Gazza), a couple from Blackburn (although they were of course very good then), one from Villa, one from Boro and a couple form Spurs who were just mid table in those days.
Now it's mainly top 6 from a few players from other clubs.
Rules on handball changed a bit aswell given everyone was saying it was a harsh penalty!
Not sure I agree with that. Would you say for example Ramos is a better defender than Baresi?
Defensive tactics might be better but there's so few good centre backs around versus the previous decades.
Maybe because the rules have changed in favour of attackers with offsides and any touch brings a foul etc.
It does seem to be easier to shut you out though by employing loads of fit fast strong super stamina players.
You don't see many players rounding keepers these days. Or as many strikers sprinting through the middle like early day Owen scored so many goals.
Not sure he is. But he’s defending in a harder era, where the game is quicker and you have a different type of threat I think. But by all accounts, Baresi is the best centre half ever.
Comparisons across generations are a fools game really. You could say he's defending in a harder era, but I'd also say modern defenders are offered more protection tactically.
Ha! I heard the commentator say he didn't like the idea of the new electronic substitution boards! Said he didn't think the change from old ones was necessary. How times change...
It is, inter generational comparisons are never an exact science. It is a necessity of the game though, especially when ranking historical achievements or players.
Typically, as far as watching football goes, the standard looks worse and worse the further back I go. Even the top players look a bit shit by today’s standards. Defenders just dangle a leg, if Wan Bissaka went back 50-70 years some of the all-time greats would never get past him from what I see.
That said, it it were that easy back then, everyone would just walk past those half-drunk defenders, but they couldn’t, so I guess everything is relative. If a midfielder dominates the game in the 70s, you have to appreciate how much better he is than his peers. Comparing to players from today gets trickier.
Haha aye, was amazing. Going on about that digital board like it's some new fangled technology: "No one knows whats going on anymore!"
No surprise that Ferguson lambasted England upon the final whistle for failing to keep the ball.
And in fairness the tactics themselves owed much to more lax refereeing and inconsistent pitches. The post-2008 transformation to possession football required immaculate pitches every game of the season, whereas it simply didn't work when you might get a bobbly or cut-up park once a month. It also required attacker-friendly refereeing so you could take the ball in tight spaces and win a free-kick under a level of pressure that might not have raised an eyebrow in a previous age, and would likely have led to your team conceding a high-quality chance due to losing the ball in a dangerous area.
I think there’s an important distinction to be made between tactics and quality. A lot of the players on show there were comfortably capable of keeping the ball, but they were conditioned into a style of play that was risk-averse and direct. That was part cultural and part tactical. Both teams were set up in 4-4-2 and had to go direct to move it to another man. For example, I don't think it necessarily suited the likes of Gascoigne or McManaman to have to go direct because they had fewer combinations on offer around them. And some other players were products of the game at the time, hard runners and tacklers like Stone, while a more cultured player like Beckham didn't make the squad. Most classy 10s just had to reinvent themselves as wide midfielders to fit into the 4-4-2, while the most talented wingers (see Barnes and Waddle) had to play like wing-backs because of the prevailing system and attitudes.
And in fairness the tactics themselves owed much to more lax refereeing and inconsistent pitches. The post-2008 transformation to possession football required immaculate pitches every game of the season, whereas it simply didn't work when you might get a bobbly or cut-up park once a month. It also required attacker-friendly refereeing so you could take the ball in tight spaces and win a free-kick under a level of pressure that might not have raised an eyebrow in a previous age, and would likely have led to your team conceding a high-quality chance due to losing the ball in a dangerous area.
If you think England failing to keep the ball is a 90's thing maybe you should revisit Jordan Henderson's performance against Croatia in the 2018 WC semi.
I know Southgate's England have improved on this and are better at possession than a number of England teams prior, but even today this is still a problem for them in major tournaments and keeps costing them. 2019 Nations League match against the Netherlands was no better.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
I know Southgate's England have improved on this and are better at possession than a number of England teams prior, but even today this is still a problem for them in major tournaments and keeps costing them. 2019 Nations League match against the Netherlands was no better.
To be fair I’ve never had Jordan Henderson down as a ‘modern midfielder’. He’s always struck me as an old-school traditional English midfielder whose qualities are not in his quality. That said, he can pass the ball a bit better than that video shows usually!
For Liverpool, yes. But for England like a lot players including Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard before them they've often looked half the player they are for their clubs. IIRC Scholes and the whole midfield against Portugal in Euro 2004 went completely missing after the early England goal, only a matter of time when Portugal scored because England couldn't keep the ball.
Last edited:
Your tactical analysis is spot on
But different isn't necessarily better.
Mustafi has played a lot of seasons at Arsenal and Phil Jones has won numerous caps for England. Zidane would still be do OK I think.
Wasn't Bryan Robson Terry Vegetable's assistant manager in Euro 96? For some reason he ruled himself out of the top job when Tel said he was going to retire after the tournament and we ended up with Hoddle.
Dodged a bullet, probably.
Dodged a bullet, probably.
Are they showing all the Euro 96 matches or just the England?
Probably Russia - Czech Rep, but nobody was watching it because Italy and Germany was on at the same time, and the Italians were slipping out of the competition. Croatia were good value throughout, their demolition of Denmark was a technical masterclass, while their ding-dong with Germany in the quarters was a cracking game as well. England's thumping of Holland was fascinating as it always is when a giant unravels and is humiliated. But I'd go for the gripping semi-final between England and Germany, everything on the line and could have gone either way.
Watching Spain vs Bulgaria right now.
Huge number of empty seats.
Huge number of empty seats.
Was Euro 96 where you lot demolished us, but we went through on goaldifference, because we scored the 4-1 or something?
I mostly remember Seedorf launching a pen into the stratosphere against France.
I mostly remember Seedorf launching a pen into the stratosphere against France.
Was the same at many grounds. Think France-Spain was played in half empty Elland Road which sounds ridiculous if England ever got a tournament now. Old Trafford for the semi final didn't sell out either and it was only 55k back then.
Outside London the tournament didn't seem to catch fire for some reason, was it really high ticket prices? Seems odd considering interest in premier league was really getting going at that point for general public.
Edit: Just 19k at Newcastle for Bulgaria-Romania in the group stages. Old Trafford had just 37k for Germany-Czechs in the groups.
I personally think a lot of people in the UK just aren't interested watching much foreign or non English football always been culture of that here.
The fact La Liga, arguably the biggest league in the world along with the Premier League, struggles to secure broadcasting rights here, and even when they manage to, the viewing figures are utterly abysmal.
England v Tunisia gets 17m match viewers, whereas game of the tournament France v Argentina gets 6.5m. Where are those other 10 million people? Are there people who just literally watch England and nothing else? I don't expect France v Argentina to get the same ratings but its a big drop off.
Yep pretty much. Loads of people who don't care about football just jump on the bangwagon at tournaments where England do reasonably well or play a big match, always been like that so yeah they wouldn't care about other nations once England got knocked out. Knew plenty at school who didn't watch the rest of euro 2004 or 06 when England got knocked out in the QFs but those weren't big football fans at all.
I do think it would be difference now if say England had hosted euro 2020/21 in full. Think even the smaller group games would've been close to selling it.
Considering there would've been decent travelling supports to that tournament does show how few locals were interested in many games.
I do think it would be difference now if say England had hosted euro 2020/21 in full. Think even the smaller group games would've been close to selling it.
Considering there would've been decent travelling supports to that tournament does show how few locals were interested in many games.
Things evolve. It's not that players are better or worse now vs. then, just that the way they play the game is different.
Had Baresi been born 30 years later, and played now with modern training, facilities, equipment and tactics, he would almost certainly be the best defender on the planet. The game is not quicker because the players are better, the game is quicker because everything around them has improved.
I was just checking the viewing figures for the 2015 Champions League Final between Barcelona v Juventus, the biggest club match in the world, which was free-to-air since it was on ITV back in those days. A broadcast average of 4 million. Casualty on BBC 1 at the same time got 3.7 million. Barely beating Casualty, ffs.
The worlds much more globalised now, and international travel is much easier and more frequent so I don't the effect of empty stadiums would be as bad now.
The worlds much more globalised now, and international travel is much easier and more frequent so I don't the effect of empty stadiums would be as bad now.
No way was handball Henchoz was playing.
Oooo yes what a game RUS v CZK.
Giving me memories of Alexander Mostovoi from that Celta Vigo side. You'll know what I mean.
I agree with that. It provides mitigation for what we see, but it doesn’t change what is.
If a sprinter from today runs 100m in 10 seconds and a sprinter from 30 years ago runs it in 11 seconds, the more recent one is faster. That said, I do accept that the older sprinter may have been able to better 11 seconds today.
That’s why cross-generational comparisons are difficult. The ‘best’ of previous eras often did not look ‘better’ than the best today. Their argument is more some sort of ‘pound for pound’ better, however you work that out.
Last edited:
Yeah, you only have to look at some of the attendances at the 2012 Olympic football matches, and they are not even the full international teams. A Euros or World Cup in England (or UK) would be massive nowadays.
It's such a great place to hold a tournament too, with the country being pretty small and easy to get around for fans.
England v Scotland on ITV 4 now.
Why didn't they pick one of the tournaments that England won?
I hope Gazza delivers tonight.
England were dreadful in that first half, didn't have a shot on goal. Scots neat and tidy but lacked quality in final third.
I believe things pick up now....
I believe things pick up now....
I said this a while ago when fans on here were calling it the most watched club game in the world. Its not even close
Goal . Shearer .
Great cross from young Neville too.