Couldn’t disagree more. The League table is the most accurate way of seeing where a side is - it's the largest data set and has no 'luck' element like you'd see in the cup draws. Arsenal are the 9th best side in the PL this season - smashing EL teams just shows how poor the competition in the EL is, not that they are underperforming in the PL.People put too much emphasis on the league table for assessing how good a side are. 31 games isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. Arsenal are a better side than being 9th in the Premier League suggests. Their European performances have been really good all season, even when they haven't got the result. United will start as favourites against them if they both make the final, but they won't be massive favourites.
Just looking at some of the well-known statistically driven methods for ranking European football clubs:
- 538's "xG plus" approach ranks United 5th and Arsenal 11th
- The Football Club Elo Ratings, which is an Elo system, have United 4th and Arsenal 12th.
- The European Club Index, which is similar to an Elo system, ranks United 7th and Arsenal 14th.
I agree with you. I suppport all English clubs in Europe and the England team of course, I just don’t want our main rivals to actually win anything. Like I wouldn’t mind West Ham winning the CL because they would have 1 CL and are no threat to us. I would support Chelsea Liverpool City to the final but I wouldn’t want them to win it, because they are our direct rivals and contenders in cups. So basically I support all English teams to the final as long as they don’t win it.Yeah but Manchester United fans are widely known not be patriotic and actually hating the England national team, type "Manchester United fans hate England" on Google to see many articles on this.
I’m not like that, I love my country and I would take England winning the World Cup over Manchester United winning another Champions League if I had to pick.
I can understand Irish Manchester United fans (or any other nationality outside England) not wanting Premier League clubs to do well in Europe, why should they? But English Manchester United fans I don’t understand it what so ever!
I wouldn’t say it’s a generational thing, I’m in my late 30’s and as said everyone knows Gary Neville (patriotic Manchester United fan as they come) wants all PL clubs to do well in Europe, just as Jamie Carragher (Mr Liverpool), this is not because they work for Sky, its because when it comes to Europe you put your differences aside, you see PL clubs are flying the flag for English football and you want them to do well.
The view that if you are United fan you shouldn't want other English clubs (who are flying the flag for the PL) to do well in Europe when up against Spainish/German/Italian/French opposition, is like having the view that if you are a professional footballer and a Manchester United fan growing up, if you can't play for Manchester United, give it up and get a normal job.
If anyone here was a footballer and Liverpool wanted to sign you, no one in their right mind with give that opportunity up.
So you're supporting one of Chelsea and city till the final and the other till the semi final?I agree with you. I suppport all English clubs in Europe and the England team of course, I just don’t want our main rivals to actually win anything. Like I wouldn’t mind West Ham winning the CL because they would have 1 CL and are no threat to us. I would support Chelsea Liverpool City to the final but I wouldn’t want them to win it, because they are our direct rivals and contenders in cups. So basically I support all English teams to the final as long as they don’t win it.
I don't disagree that we should be beating them as we're a better team but to claim it's down to law of averages is nonsense.There's ALWAYS probabilities involved in football, hence why there is predictions and analysis. Throw enough mud at a wall and it will eventually stick. After 5 failed attempts to beat them we will eventually get a win we're Man Utd for fecks sake.
Even outside football quality wise we are above them plus Tierney/Odegaard out for the season. If we somehow lost to them in the final it will be because of our own doing not because they are this formidable force people here are making them out to be
I don't get this at all, this might be actually more baffling than wanting them to win it!I agree with you. I suppport all English clubs in Europe and the England team of course, I just don’t want our main rivals to actually win anything. Like I wouldn’t mind West Ham winning the CL because they would have 1 CL and are no threat to us. I would support Chelsea Liverpool City to the final but I wouldn’t want them to win it, because they are our direct rivals and contenders in cups. So basically I support all English teams to the final as long as they don’t win it.
What's going on, is this injury or performance-related?Smalling has barely featured all season
killer baby face
You shouldn't be written off at all, any team who makes it to a semi-final is in with a shot of winning, you've as much right to be there as the other semi-finalists. Considering Arsenal's head to head record against us, I wouldn't bet against you in a one-off game.The league table is all that matters at the end of the season. I can accept that, you finish in a league where you deserve to finish.
However, people are quick to dismiss Arsenal without looking at other factors. Like the fact we've improved a fair bit from our early season catastrophe, so much so our form since Xmas would actually have us in the top 4.
Don't think anyone should fear Arsenal by any stretch of the imagination, but not sure we should be written off just because of our league position.
The league table is a meritocracy, but a 38-game period is still subject to a fair amount of variance. We are only even 31 games in.Couldn’t disagree more. The League table is the most accurate way of seeing where a side is - it's the largest data set and has no 'luck' element like you'd see in the cup draws. Arsenal are the 9th best side in the PL this season - smashing EL teams just shows how poor the competition in the EL is, not that they are underperforming in the PL.
We are the only team own dropped down from the CL after mistakes entirely of our own making, I think we're still a distance from mixing it with the European elite but we're another level to Arsenal, Roma, Villareal.
Yes but it's the best of what we can possibly have - if there was another comp with more games in the same format, that'd be great but there's not.The league table is a meritocracy, but a 38-game period is still subject to a fair amount of variance. We are only even 31 games in.
You realise you can just look back further than a single season in the league and incorporate cup games in too, right?Yes but it's the best of what we can possibly have - if there was another comp with more games in the same format, that'd be great but there's not.
If United plummet and lose the last 7 games and Arsenal win the last 7, Arsenal would finish 3 points above United - that's obviously not going to happen - but maybe they will finish 6th, 7th, maybe 10th? Who knows. As it stands the league table is the best indicator of a team's standings we have and you'd be hard pressed to argue United would not be favourites in a game between the two. Even more so because we are in the same league so it's as close a comparison as possible.
So you're supporting one of Chelsea and city till the final and the other till the semi final?
I want English teams to do well in Europe, if they get to the final even better, it only adds more proof that our league is the best in the world and makes our titles even more worthy, but I don’t want them to actually win it. Just go to the final and lose.I don't get this at all, this might be actually more baffling than wanting them to win it!
You said:You realise you can just look back further than a single season in the league and incorporate cup games in too, right?
Who's arguing United won't be favourites in a potential final against Arsenal? Bring favourites is a given, but they won't be super heavy favourites. Football is a game where upsets happen regularly between sides of a far greater gulf in class.
And I disagree because it's the best possible way to assess. Usually I think comparing multiple seasons can be useful but not during covid, this season's all over the place and last season had an enforced break.People put too much emphasis on the league table for assessing how good a side are. 31 games isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. Arsenal are a better side than being 9th in the Premier League suggests. Their European performances have been really good all season, even when they haven't got the result
He hasnt settled like he did last season. Maybe due to us delaying the transfer so long, but also Roma making plans without him. Mancini and Ibanez werent that impressive last season in their first season at Roma while Smalling was great, but this season they've stepped up and been among the better CBs in La Liga. Ibanez to the point where I wouldnt be surprised if one of the european giants wanted to pick him up as their ball playing CB, while Mancini is the stronger out and out defender and I'm sure better Serie A clubs will be after him.What's going on, is this injury or performance-related?
Bang on the money!!!!!!!! The people here have been acting like fannies. The desire to win should be much bigger than the fear of losing regardless of who we face. For the record I personally believe we are more likely to beat Arsenal than VillarealYou said:
And I disagree because it's the best possible way to assess. Usually I think comparing multiple seasons can be useful but not during covid, this season's all over the place and last season had an enforced break.
So far, there's nothing to suggest Arsenal should be any higher than 9th, as you say above. Of course anything can happen in football but the whole point, as I said in my OP, is United fans need to stop with this weird approach where it's like we think it's a jinx if we just admit we should comfortably beat the likes of Granada, Sociedad and, on current form, Arsenal. Being favourites is a good thing, we need to own it and accept the accountability of winning these games as well.
That goal would be disallowed nowadays.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Why on Earth would it be disallowed?That goal would be disallowed nowadays.
Deem it a foul on CassettiWhy on Earth would it be disallowed?
VAR would overturn it for sure. Else Klopp will come out all teeth baringDeem it a foul on Cassetti
Cheers.He hasnt settled like he did last season. Maybe due to us delaying the transfer so long, but also Roma making plans without him. Mancini and Ibanez werent that impressive last season in their first season at Roma while Smalling was great, but this season they've stepped up and been among the better CBs in La Liga. Ibanez to the point where I wouldnt be surprised if one of the european giants wanted to pick him up as their ball playing CB, while Mancini is the stronger out and out defender and I'm sure better Serie A clubs will be after him.
League table is not the most accurate way to determine a team's standing until all 38 games have been played. If a team has played more weaker opponents it will artificially inflate their position in the table.Couldn’t disagree more. The League table is the most accurate way of seeing where a side is - it's the largest data set and has no 'luck' element like you'd see in the cup draws. Arsenal are the 9th best side in the PL this season - smashing EL teams just shows how poor the competition in the EL is, not that they are underperforming in the PL.
We are the only team own dropped down from the CL after mistakes entirely of our own making, I think we're still a distance from mixing it with the European elite but we're another level to Arsenal, Roma, Villareal.
You know what you are probably right. I bet in slow motion it looks like Ronaldo nails him. What a shame we had to ruin football so blatantly.That goal would be disallowed nowadays.
League table is accurate mostly but I still feel we are behind Liverpool and tuchels chelsea. So 4th best in england.Couldn’t disagree more. The League table is the most accurate way of seeing where a side is - it's the largest data set and has no 'luck' element like you'd see in the cup draws. Arsenal are the 9th best side in the PL this season - smashing EL teams just shows how poor the competition in the EL is, not that they are underperforming in the PL.
We are the only team own dropped down from the CL after mistakes entirely of our own making, I think we're still a distance from mixing it with the European elite but we're another level to Arsenal, Roma, Villareal.
It's a bit odd to get angry because of a hypothetically disallowed goal.You know what you are probably right. I bet in slow motion it looks like Ronaldo nails him. What a shame we had to ruin football so blatantly.
How are we on this very day the 4th best team in England? Your opinion is based on hypotheticals. Right now we're the 2nd best team in England, and have been for most of the season. In theory next year could be different, but no one knows for sure, it's just guesswork that Liverpool will bounce back and Chelsea will be consistently better. To say we're 4th best right now is frankly just wrong?League table is accurate mostly but I still feel we are behind Liverpool and tuchels chelsea. So 4th best in england.
We will see next deal.
Not angry I just think the fact VAR even brings these thoughts into peoples heads is damage enough of how it's impacted football. It was pretty obvious this was going to happen though.It's a bit odd to get angry because of a hypothetically disallowed goal.
Yes of course but we live in the present.League table is not the most accurate way to determine a team's standing until all 38 games have been played. If a team has played more weaker opponents it will artificially inflate their position in the table.
Tuchel and Chelsea we’ll see next year - I’d have them as potentially being able to compete with City if they can find a top striker and a CB. From what I’ve seen they’re who I fear most outside of City challenging for the PL next year. I think they are most comparable to us with a big squad, good players everywhere but some glaring holes in key positions.League table is accurate mostly but I still feel we are behind Liverpool and tuchels chelsea. So 4th best in england.
We will see next deal.
My Grandad always use to lecture me for not supporting English clubs in European tournaments and I simply didn't understand it, above all else how can you go from having rivalries (competitive or otherwise) with clubs at the weekend to cheering them on midweek? It's hard enough to switch mindset at internationals for non Chelsea England players let alone that.I'll support random English in the Europa who get their luckily or whatever sometimes, because why not? They're not rivals. I don't have anything against a Leicester doing well in a competition, I'd have probably wanted them to go further this year if we weren't in the tournament with them.
A prime example Fulham's run years ago, would have loved them to have gone all the way and win it.