Europa League SFs | Ajax vs Lyon

[Dr. Funkenstein]

I don't doubt you know more about Ajax, but Pogba not getting in the Ajax first team is plain stupid. You were looking for a reaction. I shouldn't have replied in the first place.

I tried to point out that Ajax judges players by very different standards. Tete played because Veltman was suspended, but purely defensively Tete is the better defender. Other United players who didn't cost 90 million and aren't a regular starter or appreciated by the fans would easily make it into the Ajax squad. So it's not about just quality, but which qualities. Making players fit together and fit a certain style of play by prioritizing specific qualities and developping them as well as playing together well. That's of course an entirely different approach than buying >50 million players and let them figure it out and convince yourself with shots on target stats that it's really going well.

Blind was player of the year in Holland, yet he is not suited to play in midfield in a primitive United. That was the point.

So your point was that topclubs in the PL can buy the best players from the eredivisie and bench them? That's not really a new insight, is it? Blind is not very fast, not very strong and not a particularly ruthless defender. It's an intelligent player with good passing, but intelligence isn't really worth much when the other players don't get it or the manager can't be bothered with any organization in the attacks.

If both teams get to the final we will find out who is better midfielder and who's primitive

You're spending more on one player than Ajax on the whole squad in five or ten years. So if United played together remotely as well as Ajax it would surely be a trashing, nothing to worry about. But that would mean Anderlecht was trashed, Feyenoord was trashed, PSV was trashed and if we go further back in history Basel was trashed and United would have been able to seriously compete with clubs like Real, Barcelona, Bayern and Juventus.

 

[Mihai]

@Dr. Funkenstein

1. You said Pogba wouldn't get into Ajax team. You didn't bring the price in your first argument. And you're telling me that if Pogba was offered to Ajax for free, you'd be like "no, we have different standards"

2. Blind was the best player in Holland playing in midfield. If Ajax is on a different level, how come he can't get into midfield of this primitive United?

3. Why does it matter how much we spend? If even our most expensive player wouldn't get into this Ajax side?

As I said, I won't reply back as I think this conversation is useless. I wish you good luck in the return leg and hopefully we will meet you in the final

 

[Harry190]

Hey, Ajax's stadium is very pretty eh.

 

[Dr. Funkenstein]

@Dr. Funkenstein

1. You said Pogba wouldn't get into Ajax team. You didn't bring the price in your first argument. And you're telling me that if Pogba was offered to Ajax for free, you'd be like "no, we have different standards"

Different yes, not necessarily higher. You can't play Ajax football with a headless chicken in midfield.

2. Blind was the best player in Holland playing in midfield. If Ajax is on a different level, how come he can't get into midfield of this primitive United?

I didn't say they are on a different level, they are about on the same level despite United paying ten times more for players.

3. Why does it matter how much we spend? If even our most expensive player wouldn't get into this Ajax side?

You're not very good at reading, are you? You're most expensive player wouldn't not just get into this Ajax side because you paid about 60 million too much for him. The whole point is that Ajax is a lot smarter about football than just buying big names and let them improvise in the hope their class will be enough. You've got to be pretty smart about football to compensate for such a huge money difference, but you also have to be pretty dumb about football not to make such a difference count considerably.

As I said, I won't reply back as I think this conversation is useless. I wish you good luck in the return leg and hopefully we will meet you in the final

That could get painful.

 

[MullerUtd]

Tie is far from over yet though. Lyon still have an important away goal and they can turn this around with a 3-0 result at home which is possible. Let's not forget that Ajax is still a very young and inexperienced team. They beat Schalke 2-0 at home and lost 0-2 away, were 10 mins away from elimination in extra-time until they scored 2 late goals to win on aggregate. I hope we meet Ajax in the final, it's an easier match-up for us.

 

[djdhrubs]

Can't be bothered to read back through the thread. Assuming Ajax go through, and if we play them in the final, who are the Ajax danger men? What are their weaknesses? Should we be beating them easily? In short, tell me what you know about this current Ajax team.

 

[SirScholes]

Different yes, not necessarily higher. You can't play Ajax football with a headless chicken in midfield.


I didn't say they are on a different level, they are about on the same level despite United paying ten times more for players.

You're not very good at reading, are you? You're most expensive player wouldn't not just get into this Ajax side because you paid about 60 million too much for him. The whole point is that Ajax is a lot smarter about football than just buying big names and let them improvise in the hope their class will be enough. You've got to be pretty smart about football to compensate for such a huge money difference, but you also have to be pretty dumb about football not to make such a difference count considerably.

That could get painful.

Pogba walks into the majority of teams in the world he would without doubt get into ajaxs midfield.
To think otherwise is plain stupid

 

[SwansonsTache]

Pogba not getting in the Ajax midfield..the mind boggles

He would walk into any midfield in the world with the possible exception of Real Madrid with Kroos, Modric and Casemiro. Never mind fecking Ajax.

 

[ChaddyP]

Can't be bothered to read back through the thread. Assuming Ajax go through, and if we play them in the final, who are the Ajax danger men? What are their weaknesses? Should we be beating them easily? In short, tell me what you know about this current Ajax team.

Pogba would be lucky to make the bench apparently

 

[djdhrubs]

Pogba would be lucky to make the bench apparently

Yeah I've read about that! It's a pity we might come up against such a tactically forward thinking team when we only have Jose managing us.

 

[Trizy]

Always has a fondness for Ajax, love how they're a big club with great history and on a tiny budget.

Should be a cracking final should we go through.

 

[Jacko21]

Can't be bothered to read back through the thread. Assuming Ajax go through, and if we play them in the final, who are the Ajax danger men? What are their weaknesses? Should we be beating them easily? In short, tell me what you know about this current Ajax team.

They're a very, very young side - 23 and under. Several teenagers too.

With that, they bring a youthful energy.... and inexperience.

They're good, but on neutral turf and against a team that is defensively sound, they can be nullified.

If we make the final, you can bet your bottom dollar that Mourinho has a plan for them.

 

[TheReligion]

Different yes, not necessarily higher. You can't play Ajax football with a headless chicken in midfield.


I didn't say they are on a different level, they are about on the same level despite United paying ten times more for players.

You're not very good at reading, are you? You're most expensive player wouldn't not just get into this Ajax side because you paid about 60 million too much for him. The whole point is that Ajax is a lot smarter about football than just buying big names and let them improvise in the hope their class will be enough. You've got to be pretty smart about football to compensate for such a huge money difference, but you also have to be pretty dumb about football not to make such a difference count considerably.

That could get painful.

You have literally no clue about football.

 

[Jam]

Hey, Ajax's stadium is very pretty eh.

Honestly it's the second best stadium I've been to purely because of the overall experience. Went as a neutral a few years back to see them play Twente while on a long weekend there. On the train from Amsterdam proper to the ground the fans were talking to us, recommending where to go, asking about our weekend, talking about dutch lads at United etc. etc. First bar we went into it was the same; the fans all wanted to talk to us and show us a good time, walked us round the ground and basically gave us a tour. When we sat down the bloke next to us got talking again, bought me and my mate a pint each and the fans around us tried to teach us the dutch chants. Great atmosphere and we were sat adjacent to Twente fans.

Kind of surreal, we just fancied catching a game while we were in the city but just expected any other match day of getting a few pints and watching it with maybe a conversation or two with the people around us; their fans really made that match one of my fondest match day memories in a game I had no stake in.

Always had a soft spot for Ajax and have a lot of respect for the club. Hope it's them we meet in the final. Even if we lose I'll have a begrudging respect for such a talented young team at a historically big club getting the victory.

It was the 3-0 March 2014 with a team that included a certain Daley Blind.

 

[OohAahMartial]

I would much rather play Lyon than Ajax. Lyon were utter utter shite. Worst defending both individually and systemically I've seen in ages--they should have lost by 8. Ajax on the other hand are not the kind of opposition you want to play when CL football is riding on a one off game.

They are an extremely young side and play with amazing energy, right until the final whistle--this is a concern when our team are all half-injured or knackered. They also press in numbers which we do tend to struggle against especially certain midfielders of ours. Attacking wise Dolberg and Younes were impressive but I honestly think we wouldn't have concede any of those 4 goals--Lyon were just horrible. We will have to be defensive against them, which suits Jose anyway. They look very fast and dangerous on the counter. They seem vulnerable to switching the play from side to side, we should exploit the wings--as when they press in numbers it creates spaces to exploit. Like LVG's United they use pressing as a defense but their actual backline and goalkeepers are suspect. Ibra would have been perfect against them and its such a shame he won't get to play his old team in his home country. I would want players like Mata in the team, we won't beat them for pace but need to beat them with quick thinking. Maybe a front line of:
Rashford
Mhki Mata Lingard
Our most intelligent players with the best interplay and movement.

Should be a challenging game, very hard to dominate. Glad we didn't get them in the semi's as their home fans were amazing--tremendous and hostile atmosphere.

 

[Sokz]

Trust me, as a Dutchy we would have a much much higher chance versus Ajax. As mentioned before, Ajax' attacking abilities have hidden the fact they are rather immature and thus vurnerable defensifely. Versus a proper defending and tactically superior block it will be very hard for Ajax to dominate. Valencia and our LB will not be as easily set aside as Jallet and Lyon's LB. Similarly, with Pogba and Herrera in midfield it will be very hard for Klaassen and Ziyech to dominate the way they did vs Lyon. On the other hand, all (misplaced) optimism aside, we - in our current form - would not have been able to crack open a (poor) Lyon defence the way Ajax did and with Fekir and Lacazette they will definately get their chances at some point in the game.

 

[AXVnee7]

Trust me, as a Dutchy we would have a much much higher chance versus Ajax. As mentioned before, Ajax' attacking abilities have hidden the fact they are rather immature and thus vurnerable defensifely. Versus a proper defending and tactically superior block it will be very hard for Ajax to dominate. Valencia and our LB will not be as easily set aside as Jallet and Lyon's LB. Similarly, with Pogba and Herrera in midfield it will be very hard for Klaassen and Ziyech to dominate the way they did vs Lyon. On the other hand, all (misplaced) optimism aside, we - in our current form - would not have been able to crack open a (poor) Lyon defence the way Ajax did and with Fekir and Lacazette they will definately get their chances at some point in the game.

Well luckily for us then it's most likely Ajax will be awaiting the victor of our SF in Stockholm. In actuality either team would represent a challenge for us in the final. If they're in the final they deserve to be there, and both can hurt us in different ways. Ajax appear to be a high energetic team that will press our midfield and defence, whilst Lyon are more defensively culpable, Lacazette is the biggest threat. I think you're right though, Ajax's style of play falls into our hands more and I'd expect Pogba to absolutely dominate that midfield in the same way he did at Vigo. Not only is he technically astute, but his brute force makes him very hard to deal with. He was the main difference for me against Vigo, and would expect him to be again if we manage to get to the final, which is looking fairly likely now.

 

[Lordyfw]

An interesting read by the Guardian about Ajax's and Peter Bosz's philisophy and the way of working in the top-seats of the club.

It is a cold Thursday morning at Ajax’s De Toekomst complex, where the canteen doubles as a trophy room, the sheer weight of football knowledge can be overwhelming, and the atmosphere is unsurprisingly buoyant after the events of the previous evening at the Amsterdam Arena. Nothing is being taken for granted but Ajax can be excused for feeling pleased with themselves after their stunning performance in the first leg of their Europa League semi-final. These occasions are supposed to be cagey, cautious affairs and they have just torn up the script by beating a dangerous Lyon side 4-1.

More in the link.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...ax-johan-cruyff-peter-bosz-europa-league-lyon

 

[MJJ]

Defence is not the strong point of this or any Ajax in history. But tactics aren't limited to defending and it's not that easy to make this Ajax defend. The Ajax that beat United at OT was very young too, and mainly more defensive because it wasn't very competent in attack. Clubs like Schalke and Lyon can spend on players 5 or 6 times more than Ajax, these players are generally better and more used to a high pace game where players run faster, turn quicker, jump higher etc, it would be really embarrassing if they couldn't pose any threat to Ajax at all.

But Ajax plays a much more sophisticated game in which all the players move and pass to an attacking plan. They can move the ball around very quickly because they are selected on and trained in positional awareness. You say tactics were out of the window, Ajax supporters watching this United would say that only very basic primitive tactics made it into the building. That's something any team has to find an answer to, no matter how much better the players are individually. To be honest, I don't think Pogba would have made it into this Ajax, not after he got properly schooled and trained in vision and awareness. It's not just a difference in level, at Ajax there's more tolerance for defensive mistakes, but little tolerance for indecisive dwelling on the ball and lack of awareness about what's happening behind a players back for example. All the players need to have a properly developped and schooled football brain to play these attacking tactics. Tactically Ajax is well ahead of any PL club, that's why they are in the semi's in the first place.

 

[van der star]

Disregarding the hyperbole, I don't find his claims to be that outlandish. Ajax are renowned for the tactical nous that is implemented through their youth academies, all the way to the first team.

 

[NYAS]

@MJJ What reminded you of this thread 3 months later?

 

[MJJ]

@MJJ What reminded you of this thread 3 months later?

Akshay posted that quote in pogba thread.

 

[MJJ]

Disregarding the hyperbole, I don't find his claims to be that outlandish. Ajax are renowned for the tactical nous that is implemented through their youth academies, all the way to the first team.

Pogba not making into the Ajax side isn't outlandish?

 

[van der star]

Pogba not making into the Ajax side isn't outlandish?

If that's the only part of his post you were referring to, I agree with you.

 

[MJJ]

If that's the only part of his post you were referring to, I agree with you.

I was, should have highlighted it.