Not only that. Is much better living in a developed country in a low qualified job than in a qualified job in a developing country.
Europe Refugee Crisis
- Thread starter Scarecrow
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Still xenophobia. like it or not you don't want to lose your way of life, and I understand it and I am part of this problem too.
Hard to argue with someone who can't distinguish between economic needs vs xenophobia.
No, it is not xenophobia, it is rationale.
Everyone would love to live in a country with the best social security and best welfare system, no matter their qualifications or actual abillity to contribute to said society.
It just wouldn't work, the system wouldn't be able to sustain it.
Not economic needs, economic privileges. If you are better educated, more prepared, etc. You should be able to beat your opposition no matter which country you are from
Yes, we obviously rationalize not taking care of refugees that we caused destroying their country
Rationalizing, normalizing doesn't make it right is just peace of mind creating euphemisms to not feeling guilty of what we do, or allow to do and we take advantage of it as our governments waging war, as individuals consuming irresponsible products from sweatshops, etc...We rationalize everything to feel better.
And yes, open borders would be chaos, death and misery but it would adjust eventually but I guarantee that this misery, death and chaos would not be even comparable with the death misery and chaos that the least developed countries suffer thanks to the western international policies since the colonization.
For us would be the worst it could happen, for "them" would be we still better. And believe me, I fully understand wanting to preserve your privileges. I want to preserve mine too. I am selfish but not at the point to not accept war refugees. Is a situation way more desperate than regular immigration. Specially refugees that we created
So there is still an "active" refugee crisis in Europe in 2018?
It's not about refugees anymore, it's about promoting hatred and xenophobia.
It's not about refugees anymore, it's about promoting hatred and xenophobia.
There is no consensus about either of a.) or b.), agreed. Regarding b.) though I'm not sure how problematic that really is, since even though we don't (and probably can't) have a delimited set of values with a national consensus behind it I would dare to assert that there are values that have a stronger base than others. Things like democracy, rule of law and to a lesser degree also science are from what I'm gathering nearly universally accepted in Western Europe at least. On the other hand there are issues like what people wear that some people care about and some don't with no consensus. What if you were to focus on the first group of concepts?
The principles I'm advocating for are universal which for me means that they have sufficient inherent merit to compensate for the lack of tolerance towards conflicting principles/values. While tolerance is important it cannot be the highest principle of order. What do you reckon?
That isn't my experience at all. I don't know where you're from, but where I live (Karlsruhe), we have loads of well integrated Turks. Even in my neighborhood where there's a high concentration of people with 'migrationshintergrund' (40%) I have never met a person my age of Turkish heritage that did not speak German completely fluently. I had the same experience when I lived in the Jungbusch neighborhood of Mannheim, which to my knowledge has the highest % of people with a Turkish migration background. I know the situation is similar in cities like Stuttgart.
There might be areas of Gelsenkirchen or Berlin where what you describe is common, but I challenge the notion that what you describe accounts for the vast majority of people of Turkish heritage.
There's even a joke about it here "In Stuttgart beschweren sich die Türken dass sich die Russen nicht an kehrwoch halten!". (In Stuttgart the Turks complain that the Russians don't sweep the street according to plan)
That was the right-wing propaganda in 2015/16, they wanted people to think that in a couple of years Europe will be burning and economy will be in recession because of refugees/migrants. Almost 3 years went by since the biggest wave of refugees in fall 2015, and German GDP is growing at 2% (among the strongest in developed countries), and not a single terrorist attack was carried out by Syrian refugees/migrants. If anything, it's those who oppose refugees who are running over innocent people in Muenster.
In absolute numbers yes NRW is the state with the most people of Turkish descent but as a % of the population NRW is only 5th after Hamburg, Bremen, Baden-Württemberg and Hessen (In that order https://www.destatis.de/DE/Methoden/Zensus_/Tabellen/MHG_1_LaenderGemeinden.html ) (actually that isn't completely accurate, we may have more Italians here than in NRW which could skew the numbers but I can't find any reliable % just for Turks, I might be wrong)
If I'm honest I just feel a lot more connected to the people who grew up around me then to some 'Germans' from Brandenburg, Sachsen or Castrop-Rauxel, who's socio-economic integration (and often enough education) is well behind that of my neighbors. Obviously things could be better, they always can be, but that doesn't mean integration has failed... It just means we accept that where there's humans there's things to improve and work on.
I do accept that there are places where integration hasn't worked as well as here, but they don't represent the majority of the roughly 3 million people we are speaking about.
-No the absolute majority does not live in NRW! In absolute numbers NRW has the most, but that isn't the same as the absolute majority, and is mainly due to NRW being the most populated state.
-None of Karlsruhe, Stuttgart or Mannheim are 'remote' areas, and all of them have plenty of people of Turkish heritage (who decided to move here). I don't know where you picked up this thought that all Turks moved to NRW, but it isn't reflective of the truth.
-There's more sexual assault every Karneval in Cologne than there was that 1 silvester night you're talking about.
-Please quote criminal statistics that show migrants are more criminal if you claim that to be the case.
In short I don't believe you're experience is anymore representative than mine (Or vice versa).
Because that way xenophobia lies. You do not judge all blonde haired, blue eyed white men by the standards of Anders Breijvik so you should similarly not pass the same judgement on people with darker skin, another religion or a different language.
I'm not well versed enough in German census or crime figures to debunk your assertions but know from my younger days in punk/redskin/antifa circles that the term "Turk" in German was spat out by the same breed of xenophobes as used the term "paki" in the UK and with the same degree of venom and the intent to create an us vs them mentality in broader society and it horrifies me that 30 years on the same dog-whistle tactics are working again.
If the people drowning on boats in the Mediterranean, burning off their finger prints and walking thousands of miles with their whole lives on their shoulders were white or christian they would be rescued, helped and welcomed by the large majority in Europe but by casting them as the "other" and stoking unfounded fears of crime, violence and terrorism the hate mongers are succeeding in making wider society a vicious xenophobic place for their own vile political ends.
Judge every individual you meet as an individual, don't even take them at face value but look at what lies beneath and you'll find that barring an infinitessimaly small statistical minority most people differ very little from yourself. Hope that should you ever find yourself in need of aid, those you turn to will be similarly open minded.
Oh ok, I didn't distinguish between Turkish nationals and people of Turkish heritage. I don't know about the numbers of Turkish nationals but roughly 30% of the Germans with Turkish heritage live in NRW.
Nah the difference between a city of 650k like Stuttgart and one of 1 million (The biggest in NRW) is negligible when talking social phenomena. There is more "city" to a town like Karlsruhe than to Wuppertal even if it has 3/5 the inhabitants. (oh wow, Wuppertal needs some migrants, just checked the numbers and its actually 6/7)
B-W became more affluent in the time the migrants were here. The migrants contributed to that by working for Daimler, Porsche, Siemens, Herrenknecht, SAP etc. just the same as the Germans who live here did. In fact they now pay for Germans in other states via Bundesfinanzausgleich
Yeah that was a bit of whataboutism from my side, fair enough.
I'm not sure I understand the numbers you posted here, or what you are trying to say with them, but I'll try to have a closer look at the document you posted and try to understand them later (have to go off now).
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You actually mean the number of successfully prosecuted crimes and therein lies the difference. When policing is focused on the poorer neighbourhoods but education is not, when the police profile people of foreign appearance and when the courts pursue criminal convictions against those people at a higher rate rather than dismissing things with a caution then the crime statistics can become that skewed. That's before you even factor in the damage that criminising and jailing the predominantly young male offenders has on the family they leave behind and the increased likelihood that the fatherless son of an imprisoned migrant may be more likely to follow in his footsteps.
Some stats from the UK: drug use among the black population in 2010 was estimated at 5.8% of the population but among whites was 10.7% yet the stop and search statistics for the same year show 7 in 1000 whites were searched on suspicion of drug possession versus 45 in 1000 for blacks and in spite of the fact that drug use among young blacks is predominantly weed whereas among whites it is spread more evenly between relatively harmless weed and much harder drugs. So if you're 12 times more likely to be discovered and then far more likely for it to go to court and more likely again to lead to a custodial sentence than a comparable white youth then it should be clear that the crime statistics on their own are not a reliable measure.
Again it's the language of fear and mistrust of the other that is coming through in what you say. You admit the statistics you have quoted are unreliable and that bias does come into play yet even then you talk of the unseen crimes (glossing over the blunt linguistic bias apparent in all European languages that dark is bad and light good) yet surely if we admit that there is 6 times more focus placed on those migrant communities surely there would be 6 times less undetected crime there than in society in general
You talk of trusting the impartiality of the legal system but when at it's very first step it is evident that there is a far greater mistrust of "the other" then surely that same bias must be likely to run through the courts, jurors and judges too and the proof of this is in the prison system where the proportion of ethnic minorities incarcerated far outweighs their numbers in society at large and where the sentencing for comparable crimes is equally slanted against them.
Yes the government is letting everyone down, most governments routinely do. The language of this debate is however xenophobic and suggests that migrants are the cause rather than victims not just of their circumstances that led to migration but even the crimes committed within the societies that eventually come to host them in spite of the fact that those same migrants are far more likely to be victims of crime than the native population.
We always make the same mistake of relating crimes with nationalities (or non-national). Another example of xenophobia to blame the foreigner for the problem of a society. The right thing to do should be relating crimes with the socioeconomic level of the people. It happens to be that immigrants are usually the poorest.
And if we would like to be more accurate, the data should reflect the inequality of the city/region. The more inequality, the more crime.
And if we would like to be more accurate, the data should reflect the inequality of the city/region. The more inequality, the more crime.
There are people with several generations in the same city that they are poor you know. And they are 100% integrated.
Myself I had more than once nearly 0 money in my bank in my country and It didn't make me automatically not integrated. Integration is a completely different thing.
When one of the superich from Saudi Arabia goes on vacation in another country with their servants, wifes, etc..., I guarantee that he is way less integrated than a poor turk in Germany
You are right in that integration is a responsibility of both immigrants and government. A good start would be stopping doing (or mainly doing) statistics relating immigration and crime as the main problem and doing it socioeconomically.
Also, we as individuals are to blame. Do you have a decent amount of immigrant friends? Do you have prejudices? And when I say you I mean me too
Let's agree to disagree in pointing fingers on crime. For me should be focused in socioeconomic individuals/groups, for you in immigrants because they are more likely.
Basically tackling socioeconomic groups you try to find a solution, tackling immigration is discrimination and you don't help everyone
Basically tackling socioeconomic groups you try to find a solution, tackling immigration is discrimination and you don't help everyone
So I had a look through this for NRW and Baden-Württemberg. I don't see these numbers proving anything, they are only concerned with suspects and do not at all show what you claim them to show (that migrants are statistically more criminal). Here is why:
-Foreigners =/= Migrants. We have loads of foreigners just driving through. If someone is caught smuggling weed from the Netherlands to Denmark (just an example of course, could be €'s from Belgium to Switzerland or any of the 1000s other crimes that are recorded daily) he will make your statistical migrant more criminal.
-It's only dealing with "Tatverdächtige" is hugely flawed as an indicator because the German police automatically assume it was foreigners for entire categories of crimes. If your house is burgled and they don't have a clue who it was they assume it was eastern europeans. If you're conned on the internet but their technical expertise isn't enough to get to the perpetrators they will record the crime you report but automatically assume that the perpetrator is abroad.
- Crimes perpetrated by foreigners from abroad where the victim is in Germany (internet criminality) aren't singled out, and it seems crimes where the perpetrator is in Germany but the victim is abroad aren't counted at all? (From looking at the explanation of 'Opfer und Tatverdächtige'
- Every suspect is only counted once (if they are identified) independent of the number of crimes they commit.
The records for convictions would still be skewed by the racism that is rampant within our police forces but would be much more meaningful.
That is how the Ruhrpott is marketing itself yes, but no, it cannot be seen as a city by itself. (Unless you also consider the Netherlands as a city by itself, or the entire east coast of the USA, or everything between Birmingham and London). Yes NRW is more densely populated than B-W, or any of the other larger German states, but the difference isn't times 10, 5 or even 2, it's times 1.4. Meanwhile a proper city like (Greater) London has 4.5 times the density of the Ruhrpott and 9 times that of NRW.
Yes NRW has more inhabitants on less area, but the difference does not amount to an "entirely different world in terms of socio-economic consequences". Having thought about this throughout the day I think the main difference between NRW and B-W is that the jobs the original migrants came to do here no longer exist in NRW (for which I do not blame anyone, it's hardly NRW's fault we don't use coal anymore and largely import things like steel), with all their German peers losing their jobs as well (in the mines, smelters etc.) while the companies that they work for in B-W have largely benefited from economical developments of the past decades. I agree with you that integration is a lot easier if jobs aren't hard to get by.
I visit Köln regularly, maybe every 3 months on average (a number of good friends have moved there), used to visit Wuppertal frequently (you have some nice woman in NRW
) and think on the whole you are selling NRW short. To me migration as a topic of conversation is much like the traffic. You only ever hear people talking about it when they are complaining about it while if there's no problem no one ever mentions it.And the fact that refugees usually fall under the poorest of the socioeconomic level is just coincidence?
Edit: scratch that. Didn't realize it was you.
I concede that's shocking.
So these are only crimes where suspects have been identified? You may well be right, but where do the victims without a identified suspects show up in those statistics then?
Agree with this.
No, Greater London has a density of 5,437/km2, Stuttgart 3,000/km2, Cologne 2700/km2,, Wuppertal 2100/km2,, Gelsenkirchen and Bochum 2500/km2 and the Ruhrpott as a whole 1600/km2. Again there's obviously more people on less space altogether, but we'll need to agree to disagree whether that constitutes an entirely different world.
It's hardly a surprise given what they've had to endure to get here (and often the process of getting asylum isn't easy either) and the fact that they are just beginning to learn the language. Personally i'm fine with it, I expect it to improve gradually over time.
I much prefer contributing to their safe lives here via taxes than contributing to the state budgets of other states in Germany who get half their state budget from Bayern, Baden-Württemberg and Hessen and still only whine how unfairly they are treated all the time (looking at the "Neue Bundesländer" now). I prefer my money going there (and lets not act as if I was making any big personal sacrifices, it isn't that much in the grand scheme of things) than to so called private-public-partnerships where the taxpayer pays all the investment and companies owned by individuals reap the profits (Looking at BER, Autobahnprivatisierung etc.).
If they stay for the long term (and I expect many of them will) their employment rates will lag behind for a very long time... In a perfect world they wouldn't, but we don't live in a perfect world, so let's work on making it a little better ... ?
Is it poverty that leads to immigrants from MENA countries being vastly overrepresented when it comes to sexual crimes as well?
"Tackling immigration is discrimination", ffs listen to yourself.
Most of them are not unemployed and most will end up speaking the language. You've got this narrow idea of what the experience is for most migrants which doesn't match the reality
I might oversimplified this sentence. Tackling and blaming the immigration the way is done is discrimination
You can pick an statistics like sexual crimes. But are you talking of rape? sexual abuse? because I can guarantee that sexual slavery and sexual trafficking have a very white and western face.
There are way more other crimes, though. And I can guarantee that the people that steal more money are not brown, and they don't speak a foreign language and most likely have your own passport and a high % rules you on the spotlight, in the shadows and/or employs you. But of course the easy target are always the same
Think small and you will blame the immigrant. Think big and it will have a very nice and shiny white face that is from your own country
Who the hell is @user72192 and why is he/she such a massive cnut.
And just a view in this article
http://www.spiegel.de/international...to-refugee-sex-offense-reports-a-1186734.html
Lots of scaremongering and the conclusion is clear:
"...He notes that many sex offenders have impaired impulse control, often combined with low self-esteem. In a particularly high number of cases, perpetrators have unstable personalities or have suffered trauma -- and many aren't subject to the natural controls exerted by close social relationships..."
So is not about being from another country makes them be like that, but the circumstances that they lived and is individual
is poverty and inequality that make crime spike, not race, religion or nationality. So those should be tackled, not immigration as you tackle just a part of the problem (because there are nationals that suffer poverty and inequality too) and in a discriminatory way
http://www.spiegel.de/international...to-refugee-sex-offense-reports-a-1186734.html
Lots of scaremongering and the conclusion is clear:
"...He notes that many sex offenders have impaired impulse control, often combined with low self-esteem. In a particularly high number of cases, perpetrators have unstable personalities or have suffered trauma -- and many aren't subject to the natural controls exerted by close social relationships..."
So is not about being from another country makes them be like that, but the circumstances that they lived and is individual
is poverty and inequality that make crime spike, not race, religion or nationality. So those should be tackled, not immigration as you tackle just a part of the problem (because there are nationals that suffer poverty and inequality too) and in a discriminatory way
Let's just say at this moment I'm skeptical that any kind of national or international consensus, or group identity for that matter, can be built solely on the basis of purely rational concepts such as democracy, science, etc. or a vague universalism. What this skepticism implies in terms of your questions there is something I certainly need to think about.
On the question of tolerance though, I think a society based on the identity of a national/ethnic/religious/culturally-defined majority can in certain ways and under certain circumstances provide a greater degree of tolerance for similarly-defined minorities than one based on the universal principles we're discussing. But the potential for extreme intolerance is perhaps greater in such societies as well.
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That's a very interesting y-axis.
Lib Dems would be proud of that sort of plotting.
Do you have any stats backing these guarantees?
Even overlooking the placement, what's 1.1 crime levels?
Which specifically?
PD: very nice asking me stats when you provided none, by the way
It's normalised to 2013, that is ok if you want to put all three lines on the same graph.
My problem is the cutoffs.
Something I'm working on now:
With more realistic axes:
(It's one of those blue/orange lines in the middle that does nothing)
I'm not even trying to say that it isn't a problem. Just that the choice there makes it look misleadingly worse than it is.
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Migrant crisis: EU leaders plan closed migrant centres
"Closed migrant centres are to be set up in EU states to process asylum claims under a deal reached after marathon talks at a leaders summit in Brussels.
The centres, hosted on a voluntary basis, would determine who are illegal migrants "who will be returned".
Italy - the entry point for thousands of migrants, mainly from Africa - had threatened to veto the summit's entire agenda if it did not receive help."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44652846
I wonder how well (or otherwise) thought through this policy is...
Because to my mind there are of course going to be people in there who are genuine refugees - and people who have been trafficked and family / children etc.
Surely there is going to have to be some segregation in these facilities - in otherwords the EU run a very real risk of basically backing themselves into a situation where they will either have to basically ignore their duty of care or slpit up some of these families whilst thigs are assessed - essentially they run the risk of replicating some of the trump inspired debacle in the states...
Its a sad day i think for the EU - personally I was and am Anti Brexit - but sometimes the EU puts forward some ill conceived ideas and I think this is one
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-drowning-charity-mediterranean-a8423261.html
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/...igrant-ghettos.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur
It's great seeing how much the west values western values
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-EU-protect-refugees-caught-beating-them.html
And this happens constantly. And these groups only are cut off of EU resources when they are brought to light but the EU is funding them consciously of what they are doing and as long they are not get caught redhanded
And this happens constantly. And these groups only are cut off of EU resources when they are brought to light but the EU is funding them consciously of what they are doing and as long they are not get caught redhanded