They've been docked more often than the QE2.
Everton deducted 10 points for PSR breach (reduced to 6) | Deducted further 2 points for second breach
- Thread starter SilentWitness
- Start date
Cheers for clearing it up. I guess Leicester also sold some pretty big players over the years to get balanced, no? Few of their sales were cheap.
Kante, Maguire, Mahrez, Chilwell, Maddison, Fofana (72m, gone completely under the radar on flop-signings)
Dropping only two points a good result for Everton. They drop two points most weeks 
The PL are a collective and it’s the clubs that have determined the rules. The PL board are duty bound to charge clubs in accordance with the rules the clubs have agreed.
The clubs didnt want that they wanted matters dealt with in the season the accounts are due to be submitted. In effect the first of the Everton deductions came about in this season be a Everton objected to the matter being dealt with earlier
I certainly am not going to defend City but the charges they face , save a couple that are around failing to accurately report sums on their PSR submissions aren’t facing charges under PSR rules. Most of the charges, if confirmed will only lead to a financial penaltySo we have now establish a pattern of four points on average per infraction. That means City will be deducted 452 points. 114 points in the Premier League next year, 138 points in the Championship the following, then 138 in League One again. That´s 390 points off. I guess that means they can fight for immediate promotion from League Two, if they win all 46 matches against a 62 point deduction. I mean that´s what will happen right.
Each breach of a PL rule faces different assessment. For instance clubs don’t get the same sanctions for failing their players nor when teams have 7 bookings in a game.
Man City invisibility cloak strikes again
The comparisons with City are really, really stupid.
If we somehow manage to stay up there is a likelihood we are hit with a third charge that means we start next season on a deduction too. It does appear to be a tricky never ending spiral when you're hit with that first breach.
Administration must be a strong possibility at this stage given 777 have had months to prove their funds to premier league and that still hasn't been cleared.
Yeah I believe they budgeted for champions league and missed out. p&s issues ensued, sold players, couldn’t buy players, huge wage budget killed them.
Everton similar story budgeted for Europe(6th) finished 8th twice.Then got hammered by FFP sold all players, they would have been fine but player x, stadium, & Ukraine sent us over.
It’s almost like anyone near the top 6 gets hammered, I wonder why that could be?Newcastle, Villa got to sell players apparently. The mighty Spurs, 2 times league champions, done well out of it Richarlison, Maddison and Johnson on the cheap.
Leicester cheated to get in the prem, and got a small fine for FFP years later. If you total up their cheating for the 3 year period gone, this year in the championship, and prior fine etc. Over the last 10 years or so they been cheating ~ 50% 60% of the time.
It will be an interesting test case their breach. They won the FA Cup whilst cheating and should be stripped to set precedent for Man City.
You're essentially asking why an extremely complicated case is taking longer than pretty straightforward cases. It's a pretty weird thing to ask.
With cases like Everton, you just read the numbers and see that they're spending more than allowed. You then ask them why that is, and decide if their excuses are good enough or not. Since the answer evidently was no, the next thing is to decide the punishment. That's it. With a case like City, you have to uncover fraud. You have to find out what numbers are real, and if you determine fake ones you'll probably need estimates of what the real ones would be. You're almost certainly looking at actual criminal behaviour for several of the breaches. You're preparing for a lawsuit as well.
It's like asking why a murder investigation is taking longer than a traffic citation. The answer is in the question.
Re charges for exceeding the PSR limit up to the end of the 22/23 accounting cycle then no other club is getting charged. Ironically the Everton case still hasn’t been fully settled the PL believe the clubs PSR submissions/ deduction for the last three year cycle is incorrect . So still potentially the numbers will change. That issue is still to be argued
Some extracts re Everton from the last years accounts and
Income £172.2 million excluding player trading.
Profit from player sales. £ 47.5 million
Total £219.7 million
Wages £162 million . The only estimate I have seen is that 70% of total wages at most clubs is in respect of first team squads so say £113.4 million
Amortisation £ 77.6 million
Agent fees £13.5 million
Impairment £ 7.1 million
Total. £260.2. million. ( Using £113.4million as squad wages = £211.60)
So yes it’s an estimate but that’s circa 97% of all income in respect of first team squad costs .
Yep this is how I see it, City are not going down, not getting stripped titles but they will get a massive point deduction that prevents them from Qualifying for CL for at least 1, maybe two seasons. They may well get a staggered penalty over 2/3 PL seasons, threaten to go to court and it’s appealed to 1 season 40-50 points, the fine will be much bigger than that.
The problem with the city case is proving these charges, the onus is on the PL that will be fighting a Lord Pannick KC appointed by City who is being paid £10,000.00 per hour, there may well be a desire on both parties to conclude an amicable solution asap with the threat of multiple points deductions, so as to compromise on a huge one season hit.
The bigger question is why Chelsea are yet to be charged when their owner has admitted finance doping, Fraudulent activity by the previous Owner in running the club, admitting to not declaring agent fees on certain transfer fees from 2012-2018 and gaining unfair sporting advantages by signing players like Eden HaZard that gave the club at least two titles in that period. This case won’t take nearly so long as the new owners held back £100m of the original purchase price, suspecting finance irregularities and then self reported last year to the EPL.
The Chelsea case is much worse because nothing needs to be proven. The EPL have appointed Murray Rosen KC to lead the case against City and Chelsea and he like Lord Pannick are both well known Avid Arsenal fans, so this could get messy, however more so for Chelsea, it’s just such an easier case now to conclude.
I suspect if they can get Maria Gravanskia to give evidence it will not be pretty for Chelsea Fans, you have my condolences on the way that a great club like that was allowed to be auctioned off, meaning there was always going to be suspect financials with a Russian oligarch being previously the outgoing owner.
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Wont happen for a variety of reasons such as
1) The FA cup isn’t a PL run competition .
2) There isn’t any cost ratio or FFP in the FA Rule Book
Don't you think that the reason that Chelsea haven’t been charged is simply because it’s not quite as straight forward as you seem to think?
The current ownership reported what they believed to be incomplete information. The same information has been submitted to the 3 Regulatory bodies namely the FA, PL and UEFA. Yet only one to date UEFA have dealt with the matters uncovered.
No where has either Chelsea or indeed those 3 bodies told us what they uncovered but it has been put into the public domain following a data leak that RA through his network of companies made payments to various people who had football connections. You have made a massive jump between what we know for fact and what is pure speculation .
Again none of us have any idea what concessions, if any, were agreed to facilitate the forced change of ownership and that also applies to PSR issues . Nor dare I say which of either the FA or PL will take the matter forward.
But let’s assume it’s the PL ( broadly similar process in the FA rulebook ) there is no certainty that if and when the PL take a case forward that it is passed to an IC in the early stages simply because there is provision in the rules for a club / individual to agree with the PL that a breech of rules have occurred and a settlement between the parties agreed and it is only at that stage that a panel gets involved and then it’s only to agree that the agreed sanction is appropriate.
Will that happen ?
I don’t know on balance probably not but it seems if not and the PL have evidence to charge then almost certainly Chelsea will admit such charges that and the fact they self reported matters uncovered during DD will remove the need for individuals to give evidence as the charges through admission will be proven .What you then are into is determination of a sanction and factoring in aggravating and or mitigating factors.
The current owners didn’t keep back £100 million it actually was £150 million after UEFAs £8 million there is a massive wedge that the owners won’t keep so let’s wait and see but that sort of wedge will be very attractive
The self reporting was from Clearlake was for Chelsea to report as a club the following; “we suspect there was foul play under the previous regime but we don’t know the exact details.”
The EPL has no time bar in the same way that UEFA did at the time, UEFA at the time, agreed a fine which based on the time period they could investigate, in which a transfer ban and financial fine were applied.
I respect the fact that Chelsea owners reported to UEFA financial irregularities in June of 2023 and agreed a fixed penalty of €10m at the time.
The EPL started their own investigation. Over Chelsea from July/August 2023 for a period from 2012-2019 where they are investigating financial irregularities, especially off book payments through out that period. Files passed on by certain newspapers within this country who obtained these very damaging files after the Cyprus Confidential investigation.
Later on in November 2023, the EPL stated publicly that they are looking to investigate Chelsea from 2012-2019 and should they be found guilty they could suffer severe punishments.
Now there are no points deductions set as a precedent for UEFA punishment to these very severe accusations if proven but there is, however a precedence for points to be deducted for clubs in the EPL, especially those that are found to not report their Accounts in accordance with the EPL rules, Chelsea are still to be charged but to help you out here;
Here is a look at the guardian article from November 23 and they do not make good reading if you are a Chelsea fan, it’s in black and white that Chelsea under reported their financial outlay on transfers and agent fees to gain a sporting advantage.
If self admission are to one of these accusations then teams like Spurs who have the most to gain from this will sue Chelsea. Daniel levy is not stupid, plus there is one season where you prevented Everton from Playing CL football, other clubs will also sue Chelsea if it can be proven that payments were made into off shore accounts and not declared in annual club accounts to the EPL.
Again there is precedence with this in the PL with West Ham having to pay Sheff United fair compensation for something very similar;
https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/16/sheffield-united-west-ham-carlos-tevez
More importantly however is that the club must sell £100m of youth academy players just to prevent an PSR fine or points before May 30th all while at the same time, the EPL are investigating the following;
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2...ions-over-how-roman-abramovich-funded-success
In recent weeks more information from the Guardian does not paint a very honest or healthy picture for the way in which Roman Abrahmovic ran Chelsea, deep down most Chelsea fans know the truth, the whole football world does but unlike City who have 115 charges which have to be proven, some of Chelsea’s do not has Todd Boehly has said; “look guys, I’ll come clean, it’s not my responsibility, just be fair with the punishment for the club!”
And due to self reporting you will get a more lenient punishment however do not think that there is no form of liability whatsoever for the current owners, Clearlake for past misdemeanours by Chelsea Football Club.
https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...l-breaches-under-investigation-premier-league
The club did not go into administration, which means all current liabilities are the same as all current assets, Clearlake inherited the fat EPL tv sponsorship deal, they also inherited all of the EPL law and rule breaking legacy from Roman previous tenure, including undeclared agent fees against revenue received, this is circumventing FFP/PSR and if your the only club that did this, it would give unfair sporting advantage.
You’re not getting relegated, nor are City, I barely see them getting a fine because the onus is on the EPL to prove the charges.
I do however seeing Chelsea being made a bigger example of than Everton, Leicester and Forrest with something like 5 to 6 years of points deduction accumulated of maybe 45-50 but then halved due to compliance of Clearlake giving you 22-25 points deduction in one hit, be thankful it’s not this year because otherwise you would be fighting relegation.
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I don’t dispute that most of what you have quoted has appeared in the press but you fall into a massive trap in that you have only seen what the likes of the Guardian have said and even then they do not dare state the “ evidence “ is proof positive and the use of the word could by them is deliberate because they haven’t any clue as to the full details and that is where the PL will have to tread carefully because even though the PL can and have dealt with historical matters they, the PL, have to conduct all disciplinary matters in accord with English Law and that includes adherence to the Limitation Act.
You post the link re Marina Granovskaia but I am not sure you have grasped the origins of that case nor the fact that the burden of proof would be on the PL to prove that any money that passed between RA and MG was in respect of her work at Chelsea as opposed to work she did outside of the club nor will either of them be duty bound to appear at any hearing or even respond
Football Clubs and yes even in the PL self report due to the information they have submitted being incorrect. I doubt that many are aware that Brighton not that long ago self reported itself fotr incorrect information being submitted re payments to agents
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...t-350k-FA-fine-misrepresenting-transfers.html
Finally the claim that Chelsea have to sell £100 million of academy players by 30/6/24.
It seems to me that you fall into the trap of believing every thing you read and most of those “ experts” rarely look deeper than the bottom line losses.
Let’s just look at the latest years numbers. A bottomline loss of £90 million. Deduct circa £40 million in respect of healthy expenditure namely depreciation, ladies and academy football.
Then what is thePSR impact in respect of loaned players such as Lukaku, Kepa & Ziyech? £20-£30 million ish in the statutory accounts. Or what about additional sums received for the likes of Livermento.
I don’t doubt that Chelsea like a whole gaggle of clubs are tight but without sight of the PSR submissions and of course within there will be allowances granted as a consequence of RAs sanctions add to that the treatment of the significant sums that appear in the 21/22 in respect of impairment and provisions of a historical legal matter (£96 million in total) then you have the claim from the owners that they have achieved a £57 million reduction in wages/ amortisation
You achieved a £57 million reduction in wages / transfer amortisation because in last years wages accounts you have two whole management teams that were paid offs including both Thomas Tuchel and Graham Potter’s team plus you paid Brighton £21.5m to get Potter in the first place, the true cost is in your last years ridiculous wages to revenue of 79%, was huge compensation paid, rumoured to be in excess of £50m to buy out Graham potter and his team from Brighton plus pay off Tuchel and Potter team.
Perspective!
I’ve included Deloitte’s recent report from last year where Chelsea show a healthy €589m but the club reached the 1/4 final of the Champions league, your wages of over €465m was a breach in it’s own right.
Now deduct your £57m from £410m last year reported wages and this year your wages would probably reduce £350m but here’s the most important part you have no European football or CL income which also reduces your revenue line by £50m,
so assume £465m against wages of £350m and you may have reduced the 79% ratio to 75% for the current season but to suggest Chelsea don’t have to sell multiple players before the end of June is naive at best? Chelsea as PL football team are under increasing pressure on multiple fronts for PSR
https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pag.../articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html
The self reporting issue is very different when your being investigated for potential fraudulent reporting of a PL clubs accounts over a period from 2012-2019 by paying
offshore undocumented, therefore not declared agent fees to gain a sporting advantage by financially doping an Agent to ensure that a said player only signs for Chelsea and not other clubs who were unaware of the true cost to sign a player!
The Brighton charge and fine paid were all overseen by the FA not the PL and this is exactly the same issue that Leicester face, if they gain promotion this season they will be charged and deducted points for the season of 22/23 when they were last in the PL, the FA can not deduct points this season or even fine the club because they have no jurisdiction over PL and vice versa!
Brighton were charged £366,000 for a Fa Breach, they could not deduct points when Brighton were in the PL now could they, if Brighton oversight and misdemeanour was in the PL over a period of 5 years then there is now pre requisite to deduct points after this season.
Brighton were promoted to the PL in 2017 And charged for Championship financial breaches. Had these offences taken place in the PL they would have been deducted points without exception but it was impossible for the FA to deduct points to a team now in the PL.
If Chelsea are found guilty and only given a fine, then teams like Everton, Forrest and Leicester will have the right to appeal to the PL, that’s why they will be charged and probably deducted points.
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You clearly haven’t grasped the simple fact that at this point in time Chelsea have not been charged with anything that’s not to say they won’t but you have fallen hook line and sinker into believing everything you read in the press.Again you haven’t grasped the fact that the dominant English body when it comes to football administration is the FA not the PL and whilst it is likely that the PL will commence investigations into its clubs there is no given that all discipline matters regarding PL clubs are dealt with under PL rules
Irrespective you are wrong re FA charges because quite simply The FA can order a points deduction as they did forfor instance at Luton and I believe Swindon
Brighton were charged by the FA for issues self reported, and identified by the PL for the period 2012-2021. Brighton were promoted to the PL in 2017.
https://www.thefa.com/-/media/files...-and-paul-winstanley---13-september-2022.ashx
Leicesters case is nothing like the Brighton case. Both the EFL and the PL have within their rule book specific rules around which league pursues matters Leicester argument is that the PL don’t have jurisdiction and they may well have a valid point. Once a club is either promoted or relegated the league where the club finds itself are its argued responsible.
Brightons charges was under a the Fa Regulation “Working With Intermediaries “
At this point in time we have seen BlueCo 22 accounts but we haven’t seen CFC accounts yes we know the bottom line losses of £90 million other than a few headlines extracted from Blue Co 16 month accounting period much is guess work we simply haven’t seen the numbers needed to make the sort of sweeping judgments/assumptions you are making. The whole issue is clouded.
In 21/22 with significant bonuses being paid for CL qualification the total wage bill was £340 million. I will reserve judgement re the 22/23 numbers till they are published. But even then that is the total wage bill and not squad costs
Finally as you clearly think you know the PSR details tell me what concessions ( based on the written reasons in Evertons 2 cases we know there will be some )the quantum of the breech you clearly believe has occurred.
What we do know is up to 22/23 the PSR threshold hasn’t been surpassed and in there were statutory £90.1 million loss in 22/23, £114.6 million in 21/22 .The 19/20+20/21 numbers are very confused due to the COVID impact but the average loss was £54.60 million .
I will repeat that we do not have a clue as to what allowances have been made in respect of just 2 areas . Impairment of £96 million and the £17+ million in respect of historical legal action. and that’s before you factor in lost revenue due to RAs sanctions .
Your clearly a huge Chelsea fan who is right in one accord they have not been charged yet but are under serious investigation from 2012-2019 and the KC who will be overseeing these potentially charges when and not if they are made will be Murray Rosen. The simple question will be did Chelsea have an unfair sporting advantage by recruiting Eden Hazard in 2013 by suspiciously paying private payments from Roman Abrahmovic own account in British virgin islands to Hazard’s agent in Dubai and was never reported on the accounts filed. Of course these are alleged but seem to have traction with other doubts concerning Samuel Etoo and Willian. At the time did Man City, Spurs and Man United also try to sign these players but could not because of not matching the agent fee for obvious reasons.
Forget what happened in the last PSR cycle there is Ofcourse mitigating circumstances especially covid however how you as a fan thinks the club will worm their way out of this is beyond me and many more within the game as the Mirror article reports, the Chelsea Ownership are participating with the current investigation and should charges be made possible, they will accept the punishment. All the KC who is running these cases needs in this case is evidence from banking accounts that a payment was made from British Virgin Islands to Dubai by Abrahmovic, when they suspended his accounts in Europe due to the current War in Ukraine, it was conceivable that HMRC accountants had a field day with those and have the right to request international transfers if Murray Rosen requests this?
Chelsea have admitted guilt to what extent, no one truly knows but if your Todd Boehly and £2.4 billion is still sitting in HMRC bank account, then you find what you suspected with finance irregularities was only the tip of the iceberg, you might go all in to try and claim even more of that cash back especially if fraudulent practice is proven, not paying tax on agent fees declared offshore when they should be registered as part of the annual accounts to EPL is a whole new ball game, have ever clubs done this who knows and it would very difficult to prove in a court of law, but the Chelsea accusations won’t go away just like City’s 115 charges?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/chelsea-roman-abramovich-points-deduction-31441643.amp
Simple question as a Chelsea fan, would you bet your house on Roman Abrahmovic not circumventing the FFP/PSR rules at the time and not making payments offshore through personal accounts to other offshore accounts to entice talented footballers to play for Chelsea, whilst at the same time blatantly not recording these payments through Chelsea Football club and not including them in the annual accounts given to the PL?
I didn’t think so, No Chelsea fan in his right mind would bet their home on Abrahmovic doing everything 100% by the book!
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This response alone proves how little you know about discipline matters in football and in particular the Premier League
Rosens role will be absolutely nothing to do with obtaining evidence or even reviewing his role is to appoint the panel to the commission. Discovery would be incredibly interesting if to proceed at IC the premier league were to ask for information, personal information at that , and it isn’t forthcoming from or even available to CFC.
You talk about all that is needed is banking details or somehow suggesting that HMRC will release information to the investigators which are totally independent from any commission That simply won’t happen.
HMRC aren’t mandated to release specific information to the league as an example clubs have to report to the league details of any arrears for the likes of PAYE/NIC &VAT the league has to rely on the clubs to provide such information because HMRC can’t and wont share even that sort of basic information but even if those accounts somehow came into their possession without context would details from a bank account detailing payments made a year after a transfer be enough to meet the required burden of proof?
The proceeds of sale to Clearlake isn’t held in an HMRC account it’s in a RA company account which is currently frozen
Look I am not suggesting that there isnt an issue that is being looked into but believe me club after club have issues when it come to under reporting payments and have been subject to investigations by HMRC indeed only recently Man Utd and Newcastle have had to make reference to these type of issues in their statutory accounts
https://taxdisputes.co.uk/2021/08/m...lubs-tackling-hmrc-tax-investigations-advice/
Finally no I wouldn’t bet even £10 on such a matter of course there are questionable dealings all over the place but thinking, knowing and proving are a country mile apart
Too much money involved.
Remember when we used to talk about formations, substitutions & transfers ????
Now we talk about expenditures, bank loans & deferred payments…
Now we talk about expenditures, bank loans & deferred payments…
Formally lodged an appeal for the 2nd deduction now. Has to be concluded by 24th May so 5 days after PL concludes. Going to be chaos if they reduce again and it has an impact on relegation.
They've now announced it will be pushed through before the last game of the season. Seems like you can make things work in certain timeframes if you want to...
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They really had to do that. Not knowing which team is relegated until 5 days after the season ends is ludicrous.They've now announced it will be pushed through before the last game of the season. Seems like you can make things work in certain timeframes if you want to...