Valencia was decent at RB last season. He never will be a great RB but he does a decent job there in my eyes. I have high hopes for Darmian this season too and we have TFM. I think we're fine at RB for now and should target a CB instead.
Fabinho
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I'm constructing my argument around stats because its the only meaningful way to do so on a football forum. I don't have any videos to show you e.t.c.
Valencia is fast and strong yes. But he is also technically very good. His first touch, his link up play are all brilliant and his crossing is drastically underrated on this forum (yes isn't not as good as it used to be but I seem to remember him being involved in quite a few goals near the end of last season). No full back/winger hits 100% of their crosses. Most full backs/wingers don't even hit 50% of their crosses as they would want to.
One of the reasons we struggled so much last season was due to the lack of attacking influence our full backs had (which are a big thing under LVG). Darmian and Rojo just weren't good enough in the attacking sense and both were suspect at the back as outlined countless times.
Darmian got schooled against Arsenal and Tottenham and LVG even said he brought on Valencia at half time against southampton because Tadic had too much space and also said that he didn't see Tadic in the second half. Rojo is also rash and supect.
One on one Valencia unstoppable and uses his pace and strength to win the battle. Also I find it funny that people saying he's a liability positionally and then when TFM was all over the place positionally when he was playing at right back he was being lauded for the exact same thing Valencia was doing, using his pace to get back into position. And lets be honest, Valencia was nowhere near as much out of position as TFM was in the games he played there.
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Never seem him play but from everything I've read he sounds like a younger version of Darmian!
is shaping up very, very well, for Fabinho to go to @ManUtd . But the deal should not be concluded immediately . Wait and seeTweet
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But Jorge Mendes is currently in London. So things can happen for Fabinho. One thing is almost sure he will not stay ASMonaco.Tweet
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He's nowhere near. He's actually got quite a dribble on him for a defender, isn't the quickest but is good on the ball. Very good defensively, if a bit erratic at times.
Reminds me of a taller and slower Shaw, the times I've seen him.
Basically our azpilicueta - hmm.
Obviously not convinced by darmian and Valencia on other hand is positionaly inept for a defender. Hope JM knows what he is doing
Obviously not convinced by darmian and Valencia on other hand is positionaly inept for a defender. Hope JM knows what he is doing
Isn't there already a thread about rb's?
Maybe discuss Valencia and Darmian there, and keep this to Fabinho?
Read the last couple pages, and Fabinho has barely been mentioned.
Maybe discuss Valencia and Darmian there, and keep this to Fabinho?
Read the last couple pages, and Fabinho has barely been mentioned.
You say stats are the only way to make an argument in your first paragraph and then proceed to make a really good argument in the rest of the post with no stats at all.
Valencia is a good option there and most of what you say is true. Certainly closer to the truth than "the best right back in the league".
The argument for TFM is that he is younger, has more time to learn the position and is a more natural defender. With Valencia, my issue isn't just his positioning, it's his inability to spot danger. Neither Valencia nor TFM are good enough to be first choice there now but TFM has great potential and could get there.
Anyway, I said I'd leave it there in my last message, so I really will this time.
People are forgetting that Fabinho is only 22 years of age and still improving as a player.
If Shaw refuses to even move the ball to his right foot throughout his whole career, I wouldn't want him here when he's old either.
Fabinho will be a great signing as he can fill 2 positions that we need, RB and DM. He's 6'2 which will be useful in both ends of the pitch. Looking at the way Chelsea were setup under Jose, he had one full back who gets up the pitch with the other staying back. So, Shaw and Fabinho will be a perfect fit.
Darmian looked good for a few matches in the beginning but since Sanchez ripped him apart, he has been really struggling. He'll be even more exposed under Jose as we won't play with 2 DMs and have lesser possession. He can't compensate for his defensive weaknesses with his offensive play as well.
Darmian looked good for a few matches in the beginning but since Sanchez ripped him apart, he has been really struggling. He'll be even more exposed under Jose as we won't play with 2 DMs and have lesser possession. He can't compensate for his defensive weaknesses with his offensive play as well.
Darmian isn't good enough, and Valencia isn't getting any younger.
Time to invest in this guy
Time to invest in this guy
And this guy is also not that better from the options we have.I don't think we should invest on a minor upgrade.Its better to fix the old motor.
Why do you speak as though a right back is different to a fullback? A right back is a fullback. Darmian, Evra, Alves etc etc you could name every right or left back, they are all fullbacks. That's the overarching name for their position. There is no difference. Fullbacks are the 2 positions wide of the central defenders in a back 4.
A "wingback" again is an entirely different thing. In a 3-5-2, for example, a wingback is the wide 2 players, as part of the "5" in the 3-5-2. They support the more central back three in a 3-man defence, while also being expected to support the attack. Luke Shaw is not a wingback, he is a fullback. Jordi Alba the same. They can, however, play in a 3-5-2 for example, as wing backs.
I cannot for the life of me understand those who say we should keep Darmian and sell Valencia. He is miles better than Darmian, the Italian does not fill me with confidence at all and this has been obvious right from last year's pre-season but people failed to see it because he is a proper full back.
Valencia gives the team a guarantee and has his ups in that he helps the team play out of defence and very reliable one versus one. In the event we sign Fabinho who admittedly I have not seen much of, Darmian should be the one to feck off.
Valencia gives the team a guarantee and has his ups in that he helps the team play out of defence and very reliable one versus one. In the event we sign Fabinho who admittedly I have not seen much of, Darmian should be the one to feck off.
If he's not good going forward then I don't see the point.
He is 22. He can still improve that part of his game. If he has a bit of pace and isnt as slow as Darmian then he should be fine.
Would give Darmian another season. Looked the absolute business in his first couple of months. As he did in Italy. Then he got Van Gaaled.
This obsession by Manchester United fans about attacking minded fullbacks amuses me. It really does. I mean I've been following United for quite some time and I cant really think of many attacking fullbacks at United who were actually that effective. Parker was a typical old fashioned defensive fullback. Irwin could attack but you only have to hear this guy for few minutes to know that he was a defender first and an attacking fullback afterwards. Gaz was a decent defensive fullback who could cross the ball, thats was all he could do in terms of attacking. Valencia cant even be considered as an attacking fullback (or a defensive fullback), I mean he cant even cross anymore these days. The only effective attacking minded fullbacks we had were Rafael and Evra. Both played at a time when we had the best 2 of the best defenders in our history and their career took a nosedive (with us) once those 2 great CBs starting showing signs of ageing or retired.
Reading your posts makes me think that the attacking fullbacks was what made the club great but they seriously weren't. Parker, Gaz and Irwin are much better fullbacks than the Rafaels, Darmians, Evras, Silvestres, Rojos and all the attacking minded fullbacks we had. And it also makes sense especially since we're a club who always produced/relied on top quality wingers. Who needs an attacking fullback when you've got the likes of Ronaldo, Beckham, Kanchelskis, Best and Giggs on the flanks. Taking that in account and the fact that Mou is busy adding quality in the team (Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Pogba), is it that tragic to return to a time when a fullback could actually defend and allow the creative guys to focus on their job?
Reading your posts makes me think that the attacking fullbacks was what made the club great but they seriously weren't. Parker, Gaz and Irwin are much better fullbacks than the Rafaels, Darmians, Evras, Silvestres, Rojos and all the attacking minded fullbacks we had. And it also makes sense especially since we're a club who always produced/relied on top quality wingers. Who needs an attacking fullback when you've got the likes of Ronaldo, Beckham, Kanchelskis, Best and Giggs on the flanks. Taking that in account and the fact that Mou is busy adding quality in the team (Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Pogba), is it that tragic to return to a time when a fullback could actually defend and allow the creative guys to focus on their job?
Darmian is also playing the goalscorer onside in this picture after being woefully out of position while Wolfsburg took our left side apart.
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Football has evolved. It's not an obsession by United fans for attacking fullbacks, it's an obsession by all football fans. Everyone wants to see a galloping fullback get beyond his winger. It is an essential part of modern football and it is incredibly effective. Why should we hold ourselves to lower standards? The best clubs in world football have brilliant attacking and defending fullbacks.
Who needs attacking fullbacks when you have the likes of Bale, Ronaldo, Messi, Neymar, Costa and Robben? Oh wait... Marcelo, Carvajal, Alba, Alves, Lahm and Alaba say hi.
We have no actual wingers in the team. It's not hard to understand why people want attacking full backs. Even for you Devilish. And Neville and Irwin were more than good enough going forward.
Valencia ?
Ay, if this guy isn't great going forward then I'm not overly interested.
That he can play in midfield properly is a good option to have, but he's just another punt, really.
Valencia is our best attacking right back and if we can't find anybody more productive then I just can't see the point.
That he can play in midfield properly is a good option to have, but he's just another punt, really.
Valencia is our best attacking right back and if we can't find anybody more productive then I just can't see the point.
It really didn't. It actually devolved at least in terms of defence. Where are the likes of Maldini, Scirea and Baresi these days? Even today's England's defence is vastly inferior to the defence of just a generation before. The likes of Smalling, Stones. Walker and Jones wouldn't stand a chance against the likes of Gaz, Rio and Terry.
Most attacking fullback play either in a very balanced team or/are used as wingbacks. The rest of the common mortals cant afford having the typical run on the mill attacking fullbacks because THEY ARE A LIABILITY. Take the likes of Darmian as an example. He's a top wingback but with United he struggled massively. Its one thing having 3 top CBs at your back who will cover your every mistake and its another having to defend your ground constantly because one mistake would put the defence into trouble. We could afford attacking fullbacks at a time when we have Rio and Vidic in their prime and with Gaz lending them a hand. We dont have that anymore.
Returning on Fabinho this year the boy had 4 assists. That's just 1 less then our last year's top assist man and at par with Carvajal and Alves, 1 more when compared to Marcelo and 3 more when compared to Alaba and Lahm. Just because someone can defend well that doesn't mean he's a liability in terms of moving forward. Tell them hi btw.
I do not know what people are talking about Fabinho is pretty decent going forward as well.
However both were defenders first and foremost. The first thing you remember of Gaz/Irwin was their tackling, their positioning and their consistency not their dribbling upfront and their assists
That leads the argument to my point. Lets stabilise the defence before we become more adventurous else we risk having a weak defence which will cost us goals as it did whenever we played Mcnair or Darmian. Once we're confident that the defence is solid as it is, then we can add more attacking minded defenders.
Precisely, and that was the point I was trying to make. I agree with your last paragraph. We should not set ourselves lower standards than the other world class teams, though. I'd say part of the reason that we don't have Baresi-esque players anymore is due to the fact that fullbacks (and defenders in general) in modern football are being asked to contribute going forward, as well. Pique said it in an interview with Rio: "Defenders have to start attacks now, that is what they want you to do. You look at Daley Blind now playing for Man United and Van Gaal has him playing centre-half. That says it all. The reason he is playing centre-half is to start attacks. That is the philosophy in the modern game". Defending has become more rounded. We have phenomenal defenders like Chiellini, Godin, Barzagli etc etc, while also having players like Bonucci, Hummels, Varane etc that are better with the ball. There are many phenomenal defenders still playing today, and perhaps in 10 years, this era will have a few legends of its own. Generally speaking, it is only when one has retired that they are considered a legend of the game.
"Most attacking fullback play either in a very balanced team or/are used as wingbacks. The rest of the common mortals cant afford having the typical run on the mill attacking fullbacks because THEY ARE A LIABILITY". Again... do we not strive to have a very balanced team? Feck, Everton had Baines and Coleman playing as very good, well rounded attacking and defensive fullbacks. Southampton the same with Cedric and Bertrand. I could name plenty more examples, if you'd like, but I believe I've proven my point.
I remember Irwin to be excellent at getting forward, scoring and assisting. Before wide forwards cut in and fullbacks supplied the width.
None of them are even near to the old greats such as Maldini, Rio and Zanetti who were defenders first and foremost but could also attack at the same level if not better then all the players you mentioned. That's the thing with football this days. We think that the skill of being comfortable with the ball is somehow as equal as that of being good in actual defending. Take Stones as an example. He defends like a 10m rated defender but just because he's comfortable with the ball he suddenly became a 50m rated CB. I can mention others such as Luiz whose in that same situation
Our defence is not passing the best of times. Prior to Mou we only had 2 decent defenders which were Smalling and Shaw. Mou brought Bailly who seem quite decent but he's still work in progress. If you also take CBJ out of the picture whose good but he's so green that he can piss grass the rest are either shite (Rojo, Darmian, Mcnair) or have been played in defense because they are not very good in playing in their natural role. Considering that we already have Shaw whose comfortable in attacking and defending, is it that tragic if he adds another RB whose more comfortable in defending then in attacking?
Jose's team usually have a more defensive full back & a more attacking full back. Kind of turns into a back 3 when his teams have possession. As Fabio is 6.2 & very good defensively, he's pretty ideal for how the team could be set up.
Shaw will have licence to push up & help martial. Should be a very effective signing in my opinion.
Monaco are hoping for a deal worth €30m for Fabinho
Brazilian reports reaffirmed yesterday that Manchester United were in negotiations for the signing of AS Monaco’s defensive midfielder and right-back Fabinho.
Those claims came as no surprise: it is no secret, as we reported on the 17th July, Manchester United have been in ongoing talks with AS Monaco over the possible transfer for the Brazilian international for some time.
AS Monaco will certainly not let the player go until after their Champions League qualifier 2nd leg with Fenerbahce, but may decide to hold onto him for even longer if they are able to progress to the next qualifying round.
Monaco want €30m for the player, including bonuses.
Talks with Manchester United are in good shape, but the Red Devils have yet to focus their entire attention on this transfer, with the signing of Paul Pogba taking priority.
The player is open to the idea in principle of joining José Mourinho in Manchester, but more concrete negotiations are due to take place next week.
As Le Parisien’s Florian Fieschi states, Jorge Mendes is currently in London, and with another big Premier League side also having taken the temperature with AS Monaco in recent weeks, a deal with the Red Devils remains far from completion, even if it is a distinct possibility at this stage.
Brazilian reports reaffirmed yesterday that Manchester United were in negotiations for the signing of AS Monaco’s defensive midfielder and right-back Fabinho.
Those claims came as no surprise: it is no secret, as we reported on the 17th July, Manchester United have been in ongoing talks with AS Monaco over the possible transfer for the Brazilian international for some time.
AS Monaco will certainly not let the player go until after their Champions League qualifier 2nd leg with Fenerbahce, but may decide to hold onto him for even longer if they are able to progress to the next qualifying round.
Monaco want €30m for the player, including bonuses.
Talks with Manchester United are in good shape, but the Red Devils have yet to focus their entire attention on this transfer, with the signing of Paul Pogba taking priority.
The player is open to the idea in principle of joining José Mourinho in Manchester, but more concrete negotiations are due to take place next week.
As Le Parisien’s Florian Fieschi states, Jorge Mendes is currently in London, and with another big Premier League side also having taken the temperature with AS Monaco in recent weeks, a deal with the Red Devils remains far from completion, even if it is a distinct possibility at this stage.
Im undecided on this. I'm finding it hard to asses which players are not good enough and which players have been vangled.
Shame their are no right footed left backs out there who get anywhere near as consistently good as Dennis was. No point naming retired players as what United should be buying. As his time has passed.
So you've picked arguably 3 of the top 10 greatest defenders of all time, and you're wondering why we don't see many like them? There are many absolutely fantastic defenders today, let's not cherry pick only the bad examples. I'm no Stones fan, but he is just 22. Let's not making sweeping judgements on a lad who's clearly far from his peak.
Like I said, you have somewhat valid points, I just believe that we should strive to have a player that can contribute box-to-box, like Shaw. Who's that player? If it's Fabinho, great. Football has evolved, to say otherwise is to allow sentiment and nostalgia to cloud judgement.
So many posters under-estimate Valencia. Like I said before: Woe be tide if a supporter starts to see a few flaws in a player. That quickly becomes extreme hatred which is mentally blinding.
Valencia is not 'shit' at attacking
Gotta love the hatred on this forum at times. Not one ounce of reflection on what certain players have brought to the team, just ship them out & replace them with the latest must have....
No I picked the best defenders of their generation. I was a child during Baresi era but I do remember a game or two of Scirea, Gentile and Bergomi (especially Bergomi and Baresi). During Maldini era you had defenders like Stam, Costacurta, Aldair, Matthaus, Mcgrath, Irwin and Koeman while in Rio's time you had Terry, Vidic, Cafu, Zanetti, Cannavaro and Nesta. You can always counter my arguments by mentioning the best defenders at the moment and compare them to those names. I mean nowadays Stones is rated 50m....seriously, 50m.
. At one point United had the best defence in the world with Gaz-Rio-Vidic-Evra and even then we only had 1 attacking minded fullback. With that defence could afford Evra's occasionally amnesia of him being a defender because the others were good enough to cover up for him. Once Gaz retired and Rio-Vidic starting growing old the attacking minded fullbacks started to become a liability with Evra moving to Juventus and Rafael becoming less and less effective. Since then nearly every attacking minded defenders we brought (Rojo, Mcnair, Darmian) ended up in tears.
All I am saying is lets build up the defence and once its stable we can add more attacking minded elements to it. Fabinho seems to be quite solid at the back and he can easily slot in CM if he's not needed as a fullback anymore. Let us learn how to walk before we hit running again
Badly worded as he's not strictly playing the attacker onside, but watch the video of the goal, Darmian is more to blame than Valencia for bad positioning. He's parallel to Valencia a split second before.Valencia ?
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