That is the biggest issue here. They had great teams and much less pressure. Even if you have a disastrous season in La Liga, you finish 3rd at the very worst, forget about it and go again next season. Meanwhile us having a disastrous season is finishing 6th, losing lots of money due to not making into CL, needing to pay more money to attract players due to no CL. We need a massive rebuild, can we trust Ole to do it successfully? Our best players want to leave, the only ones who don't are just happy they are here cause they know no other big club will ever offer them anything (Young, Jones, Rojo & the others). Comparing Ole with Pep or Zidane is impossible IMO, completely different situations.Why were Pep and Zidane allowed to take big jobs with feck all top level experience? Yet we are doubting Ole already! Imagine Ole had Messi, Villa, Xavi, Iniesta. Or Bale, Benzema, Christiano, Modric, Kroos!
Fans are turning on Ole faster than they did on Moyes, LVG and Jose
- Thread starter Sir Scott McToMinay
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I mean obviously, he has no history as a good manager in any substantial league. Other managers had a pedigree, he doesn't. He looks completely lost tactically and his team selections are some of the worst I've seen. He has the summer to get it right but he won't last until December if he doesn't. Honest truth. I don't really care that he used to play here, tired of the nepotism fans show here.
I don't think he's good enough for the job and I'm confident I will be proven right. I do think he's not helped by being in a club which is a total mess though.
However unlike the other 3..i genuinely don't hate him. I wish he would do well but im conscious enough to see that my hope is based on very filmsy reasons. Watching us play you can see that tactically we are staring to get figured out which is a shame.
However unlike the other 3..i genuinely don't hate him. I wish he would do well but im conscious enough to see that my hope is based on very filmsy reasons. Watching us play you can see that tactically we are staring to get figured out which is a shame.
Its a combo of people having aleady had 5 years of a "lack of success", and unlike lvg and jose, ole is simply not as proven. When they struggled they had a history of success to help people believe in them. Ole has 2 leagues titles in norway and a car crash at cardiff.
Ole has just managed 2 teams, a relegation fodder and a team in a no name league. Moyes had 11 years management in premier league with Everton and did well in most of them. It's really not rocket science.
Ole is just at the beginning of his career at real top level.
Yeah, I agree. But he didn't change the approach for kicks. Injuries and fitness issues, for one thing, making it hard to stick to the model that worked initially (against mostly underwhelming opposition, I must add). And then the biggest factor (in my opinion): against the odds, he found himself in with a genuine chance to secure CL football. One could interpret what happened as Ole choosing to be pragmatic in an attempt to salvage something substantial from a season that looked finished when he took over.
He could have just said that results aren't important - all that matters is laying foundations for next season. And in that scenario he could have stuck to his guns, played kids with fresh legs, etc. But, again, top four looked like a realistic target until very recently.
I totally get that and that's why I have mainly defended him. I imagine that he was caught between a rock and a hard place, he had a genuine chance to get the full time job with good results so he went for it but between injuries and bad form he decided to be pragmatic. The problem is that now that he has the job, he put himself in a difficult spot because he delayed the implementation of his "system" and also didn't give himself the chance to test the current players and youth players in relation to the future transfer windows. I think that sometimes it's good to lose a battle if it means that you win the war.
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Indeed. And now it looks very much like all that pragmatism was just a huge waste of time.
Well, we can at least hope that the last few weeks have given him some definite answers as to who he absolutely needs to ship out from the current squad. And hope that Woodward does what he can to help him in that regard.
No, the point I was trying to make is when Zidane took over at Real Madrid, his credentials were not better than Ole whom still has some managerial experience. Therefore; I am all for giving him a transfer window and a pre-season. Although, there are times in a press conference he seems to say the right things now we have to wait to see if he delivers.
Yes, except that Zidane was taking over an elite squad of players (including arguably the best player in the world) who were primed for success. Not quite the same situation as Ole finds himself faced with.
When Matt Busby was given the job he had never managed a professional club before, but I believe he did quite well. Brian Clough went from being manager of lowly Hartlepools to 2nd Division Derby County and took them to Div 1 and then three years later they were champions....not sure what Cloughie did next. A certain Alex Ferguson began his managerial career, aged 32, at East Stirling; he then went to St. Mirren before joining Aberdeen in 1978. Ferguson, like, Clough, Shankly and others cut his managerial teeth at small clubs before finding incredible success at clubs they will always be associated with. Busby went straight into the hot seat at an Old Trafford ravaged by bombs and in deep debt, but he rebuilt the club from the bottom up; theres nothing to say Ole will follow these illustrious gentlemen, but lets give the guy a chance, eh?
You are spot on. I also love Ole but at the moment it is simply for the way he committed to our club as a player and then the way he lifted morale so much need after Jose M. On a clean sweep I know who I would get rid of but this is my choice so I respect others may not agree: Jones, Smalling, Young, Fred, Valencia, Matic, Lukaku, Martial, Lindegaard and Pogba. My reasoning is that I dont believe Matic has it any more. Dont get me wrong he was a great player, solid. Valencia is now injury prone. Young (hopeless, can never get the ball past the first man at set pieces and is no way a captain of our club), Smalling (cant defend - end of!), Jones (see Smalling). Pogba (talent galore but just doesnt seem to have his heart in this club anymore) Fred (doesnt have the quality) Lukaku (nowhere near fit enough and nowhere near consistent enough) Martial (great talent but again doesnt seem to have interest/commitment in his play right now) Lindegaard (since his injury he isnt what he was though I'd possibly give him more time). I would try sorting the wage battle in order to save De Gea (get rid of Sanchez - too much money, not enough return). I would also try keeping Herrera who certainly gives everything. I'd begin working on defence and buy solid defenders. At least 2 solid central defenders are required. Teams fear Van Dijk. We dont have any defenders teams fear barring maybe Shaw on his day.
He doesn't have a CV to give him "credit in the bank" like Jose and LVG did. Simple as that.. yes he is a Man United Legend but his only managerial test before United was flopping badly at Cardiff (Molde success aside).
People want him to succeed because we all like Ole, Mr.Nice Guy and legend but you have to be honest sometimes and admit maybe Ole isn't the "best man for the job" in terms of a long-term vision.
It's as simple as that. Too much nepotism on this forum.
People want him to succeed because we all like Ole, Mr.Nice Guy and legend but you have to be honest sometimes and admit maybe Ole isn't the "best man for the job" in terms of a long-term vision.
It's as simple as that. Too much nepotism on this forum.
FFS. Enough with the history lesson already. It gets fecking boring, things are not the same these days if you haven't noticed. We have a team who came from Championship and buying a player from a CL team(Wolves). Can you imaging a relegation contender buy players from top European leagues those days? We are in a complete different world where the likes of Burnley can say "feck off you pricks" when we try to approach their players. It's not the same these days.
I often find it interesting to look at the manager body language.
When we were doing so well just after Ole arrived, he looked relaxed and was often there on the touchline encouraging the team.
I watched him during the Chelsea game and in particular in the second half he seemed to spend more time away from the coaches area.
When I looked at his face, which was obviously worried, he remained me of Kevin Keegan during the last England game at the old Wembley.
Very much like Keegan, Ole had that vague look of not knowing what to do.
You might recall that Keegan resigned after that Germany game saying that he realised that he was just not good enough....
How is what Ole is doing here anny different than Gerrard with Rangers or Lampard with Derby ? Actually he's been good considering he was signed based on his reputation as a player.
It is really not that hard to understand, given the respective situations:
- With Moyes, many people were willing to show blind patience due to the "United way" and, of course, SAF's famous speech at Old Trafford.
- With LVG and Mourinho, there was still desire to uphold reputation of not being a sacking club; while there were also the previous results of those managers to give hope for the future. Moreover, LVG and Mourinho both improved the results up to an extent (given that both delivered CL in their first seasons - Mourinho also did it in his second season).
- Now, with Ole, the illusion of United not being a sacking club is now fully gone, given that so many managerial changes were made over the recent years. Then you have his lack of previous achievements as a manager and it is not difficult to see why people will be very worried after a historically poor run of form.
Also, it is not surprising to see people having less and less patience after six years in the wilderness. In the six years since SAF left, United have finished inside the top four a grand total of two times. There was last season's second-placed finish and the fourth-placed finish in LVG's first season.
Given the amount of money that was invested in the club, that is completely unacceptable. I would struggle to name a club that had such a drastic fall from grace. One could say Milan, but the reason for their demise was that Belrusconi stopped financing them = there was no more money, which is an excuse that United do not have.
- With Moyes, many people were willing to show blind patience due to the "United way" and, of course, SAF's famous speech at Old Trafford.
- With LVG and Mourinho, there was still desire to uphold reputation of not being a sacking club; while there were also the previous results of those managers to give hope for the future. Moreover, LVG and Mourinho both improved the results up to an extent (given that both delivered CL in their first seasons - Mourinho also did it in his second season).
- Now, with Ole, the illusion of United not being a sacking club is now fully gone, given that so many managerial changes were made over the recent years. Then you have his lack of previous achievements as a manager and it is not difficult to see why people will be very worried after a historically poor run of form.
Also, it is not surprising to see people having less and less patience after six years in the wilderness. In the six years since SAF left, United have finished inside the top four a grand total of two times. There was last season's second-placed finish and the fourth-placed finish in LVG's first season.
Given the amount of money that was invested in the club, that is completely unacceptable. I would struggle to name a club that had such a drastic fall from grace. One could say Milan, but the reason for their demise was that Belrusconi stopped financing them = there was no more money, which is an excuse that United do not have.
What are you actually basing this on though? I don't know a single United fan in real life that isn't still firmly behind Olé.
At the end of the day you can't even begin to judge him until he's had at least one transfer window and pre season to start putting his mark on things.
If he follows a Moyesian trajectory next season then yes, he'll be out sooner rather than later.
If he follows a Moyesian trajectory next season then yes, he'll be out sooner rather than later.
I agree with virtually all you have said and I also want Ole to develop and forge for us a blueprint of play that is identifiable to us as our teams'.
We have been sorely lacking in this regards and have oscillated from the conservative, 'cut from the same cloak as SAF' British Moyes to the resume laden, disciplinarian, possession obsessed LVG to the instant impact serial winner Jose all without the success that is due a club our size.
Ole really needs to stamp this into the squad because it is practically impossible for us to buy more than 5 starter players this summer which means the usual suspects in terms of being average and inconsistent (Lingard, Jones, Young, Smalling Martial, Rashford will still lurk around next season and play in a good amount of games.
To minimize the impact of failure from these group of players, OGS has to properly integrate the new buys and implement a workable style of play that enhances creativity and goals as well as place emphasis on the collective rather than players' individual qualities otherwise we will not make significant progress.
The only thing different is, as you point out, the money.
This thread isn't progressing at all. Everyone eager to dismiss Ole are still just repeating themselves - relying on false premises that are easily dismissed (and has been over and over again) while just ignoring any objections and further elaborations made as to why their arguments doesn't make sense and why they should chill out and wait before judging him - and also at the same time arguing simplistic points that aren't even being made by those who disagree - attempting to dismiss them based on opinions very few (if any) has uttered. Trying to reason with you guys is like attempting to stop a tsunami of delusions and idiocy. Doesn't matter how strong you might be you'll drown - so it's better to just figure "feck it" and move towards higher ground
If he has a Moyes like summer I will turn on him
The thing is, that would be down to Woodward.
If you're gonna critique Ole, do it for his coaching, and for the footy you're watching.
Don't judge him as a coach in the Summer when there's no football being played!
I was very surprised that Ole got the job, it was a great move to have him as caretaker but he has a lot to prove as a coach, I'm also concerned that his back room staff is too big and the fact they have 'United DNA' does'nt guarantee they are the right people.
I hope I'm wrong and Ole goes on to be a managerial United legend, but I'm sorry to say I think he'll be gone by this time next year.
I hope I'm wrong and Ole goes on to be a managerial United legend, but I'm sorry to say I think he'll be gone by this time next year.
Fans are just desperate for to see us back where we belong, but there is no quick fix no matter who the manager is. It will take a couple of windows to get the right players in and out. We should stick with Ole and give him a fair chance. This will be his first window.
Anyone getting on Olés back clearly has a short memory and / or issues.
Try being a United fan in Fergies first few seasons.
Olés done great all things considered
Try being a United fan in Fergies first few seasons.
Olés done great all things considered
Give him some patience and players and we'll see. My only main point is they were also inexperienced so why isn't Ole allowed to be?
I wish more fans would accept this, going for experienced managers hasn't worked even a little bit for us. LVG & Jose have 3 CL's between them, you cant get more pedigree than that. But it didn't count for didly squat in the end, both very narcissistic and stubborn, and weren't interested in United's principles at all. Ole may seem bit too much of a happy chappy at times but I'm sure he's not grinning so much in the dressing room with the shite show we've witnessed. He'll be ruthless I'm sure, he's learnt from the master of ruthlessness and man management. Every person has to start from somewhere in life, you could argue Pep and Zidane were spoon fed their success, at least Ole went out on his own first! If he wins us a PL he will be a god damn LEGEND! Come on Solskjaer! lets back him at least until this time 2020!
It's down to both of them. Manager identifies the targets he wants, Woodward then tries to negotiate the deal. that appears to be the structure at the club anyways. If Ole isn't decisive enough in identifying targets or is chasing players we can't get than we come up short in arguably the most crucial Summer in years. If we end signing 1 or 2 players with at least 4-5 leaving that shows me he is out of his depth. If you tell me he took this job with tight purse strings attached than he is already screwed.
Im not expecting Ole to be as successful as Busby, Fergie etc but if he at least makes us competitive again, clears out the dross, brings on the kids, puts the smile and joy back into the club and wins a trophy or 2 on a fairly regular basis I'll be over the moon but he needs time to implement his own style with his own players and we have to be patient. I waited 26 years for us to be league champions again, I can wait a few more, but not too many I hope.
Are Gerrard and Lampard managing Liverpool and Chelsea then?
I thought we'd gone over this already?
Pep and Zidane took over clubs packed with world class players - including arguably the 2 best players ever. Ole has taken over a club in decline. Ole is not just required to impress his footballing philosophy on the players, but potentially rebuild the team - especially if Pogba and DDG go. The jobs require differing skill sets.
We have a major rebuild job to do that’s going to take 2 seasons minimum to get us back to a PL trophy contending level. There’s no guarantee Ole can get us there, but is there really a better man out there who’s available?
Probably not.
Probably not.
I think for a lot of them, It's not so much Ole as the sudden realisation of the size of the task the club faces in getting back on top. I really think it has shocked some people. I think it's also the fear that those above Ole are incapable of delivering all that is necessary for us to progress.
Well it partly depends upon what you mean by available - we are one the of richest clubs in the world, we should realistically be able to tempt all but a handful of managers.
But regardless of that, are you honestly saying that there is nobody out there who is a better bet than Ole? Would you have said that 6 months ago? I very much doubt that the thought of Solskjaer managing us would have even crossed your mind.
I think most fans are fear that we won't get the levels required to compete in the next two years because realistically no one actually knows what Ole's style of football is? With Klopp, Poch, and Pep - there is a clear high press possession football.
Ole came in and we played decent football however; in all our results the players are incapable of passing and clear lack of composure.
Is Ole going to play counter attacking football? which only works away from home and better opposition - we keep coming unstuck when teams sit back and hit us on the counter.
Ole came in and we played decent football however; in all our results the players are incapable of passing and clear lack of composure.
Is Ole going to play counter attacking football? which only works away from home and better opposition - we keep coming unstuck when teams sit back and hit us on the counter.
When I used the word "available" I intended to make it clear that not every manager in the world was then and is now a serious shout to succeed Mourinho at Old Trafford. Guardiola, for example, is a clearly superior manager to Ole but there can be no serious expectation that we could pry Pep from City. Or Klopp. Or Allegri. Or Emery.
We could have gone in for Pocchetino and maybe we should have, but his trophy haul is not particularly impressive even if what he has done with Spurs is. I was on board with bringing in Zidane, but I seriously doubt he would have been interested in a 2-3 season rebuilding project. Marco Rose was an intriguing option but he has no experience in the PL and he would have been a massive risk, albeit with the promise of a massive upside as Klopp was with Liverpool.
For anyone with buyer's remorse now with Ole, the only realistic "available" alternative was Pocchetino. Not a bad alternative, but his record was nowhere near Mourinho's and even Van Gaal's records and that didn't work out very well. It may well be that only someone who knows United inside out can steer club back on course.
Just like a lot of us needed to get Mourinho out of our systems, or risk forever thinking "what if", (although the debate that he should have been the man straight after Fergie will always be there), I feel a lot need to get the "ex player legend" thing sorted too.
What if we'd appointed Giggs type sentiments. So we can live that our with OGS now, and if it doesn't work, it's a completely fresh slate again.
I try to put into perspective, the reality that he face when appointed as interim till now.
1. Since he's a fan who follow everything happened at the club, went to game few times, and heard internal version of the stories before his united stint, I think he understand where's the problem lies. But..
2. He cannot just ripped the team apart, cut the players because he obviously didnt have the power, even he's been asked for opinion.
3. Transfer window is closed at the end of January and buy anyone will not guarantee anything and not in the table.
4. He still need to get result needed to give some foundation for next season and ease the tension at the club and the fans. So he still need the available to perform/ work on the point deficit with big 4. So he need to keep the players morale high by being loyal to them in the public. While..
5. He understand that the players cannot play with such intensities required to challenge. The fitness level is not there, the mentality also not there. He need to address the fitness training while slowly imposed attack minded philosophy. Resulted in counter attacking approach. Especially from December we still in FA and UCL which mean too many games to play for proper transition. So the only way to do it, keep the morale high, and park park the bus and counter attack against top opponents. Ole succeded. Untill..
6. The low fitness level took effect. Injuries, players only fit for less than 45 minutes. So when we didn't create early lead we'll suffer. But if we manage something before the players getting tired, proper game management will give us advantage. Sit back and counter attack.
7. Then comes the defeats, players being attacked, and contracts made everything more complicated, in the hell of a fixtures. Arsenal, Barca, Wolves, City, Chelsea. Unable to defend his players anymore, but he still give the media the perspective that it's the basic, fitness nothing to do with talent. It's not easy while the media smell blood. Try to protect the players while inside he just want to punch them in the face for not trying hard enough, for didnt care enough!! He said that not many of them will last under SAF.
It's hard to be Ole right now. Even The Special One stop trying in the end. End up fight over instagram post with Pogba.
So for me, give him full support, doesnt mean that we cannot voice our concern. Just do it with class. Show the world our class as United fans. If we think we know the problems, do you really think the Directors like SAF and or David Gill didn't realise that?
During those late goals on our history, we invent this hastag #Believe
Now is the perfect time to keep believing and be United!!
Or..
Just fill the emptyhad if you need instant results that much
1. Since he's a fan who follow everything happened at the club, went to game few times, and heard internal version of the stories before his united stint, I think he understand where's the problem lies. But..
2. He cannot just ripped the team apart, cut the players because he obviously didnt have the power, even he's been asked for opinion.
3. Transfer window is closed at the end of January and buy anyone will not guarantee anything and not in the table.
4. He still need to get result needed to give some foundation for next season and ease the tension at the club and the fans. So he still need the available to perform/ work on the point deficit with big 4. So he need to keep the players morale high by being loyal to them in the public. While..
5. He understand that the players cannot play with such intensities required to challenge. The fitness level is not there, the mentality also not there. He need to address the fitness training while slowly imposed attack minded philosophy. Resulted in counter attacking approach. Especially from December we still in FA and UCL which mean too many games to play for proper transition. So the only way to do it, keep the morale high, and park park the bus and counter attack against top opponents. Ole succeded. Untill..
6. The low fitness level took effect. Injuries, players only fit for less than 45 minutes. So when we didn't create early lead we'll suffer. But if we manage something before the players getting tired, proper game management will give us advantage. Sit back and counter attack.
7. Then comes the defeats, players being attacked, and contracts made everything more complicated, in the hell of a fixtures. Arsenal, Barca, Wolves, City, Chelsea. Unable to defend his players anymore, but he still give the media the perspective that it's the basic, fitness nothing to do with talent. It's not easy while the media smell blood. Try to protect the players while inside he just want to punch them in the face for not trying hard enough, for didnt care enough!! He said that not many of them will last under SAF.
It's hard to be Ole right now. Even The Special One stop trying in the end. End up fight over instagram post with Pogba.
So for me, give him full support, doesnt mean that we cannot voice our concern. Just do it with class. Show the world our class as United fans. If we think we know the problems, do you really think the Directors like SAF and or David Gill didn't realise that?
During those late goals on our history, we invent this hastag #Believe
Now is the perfect time to keep believing and be United!!
Or..
Just fill the emptyhad if you need instant results that much
Well, i'd argue that Gerrard's task with rangers at least, is very big, trying to end that Celtic dominance.