Far right & anti Semitic leaders win Hungarian election

Siorac

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What are the substantive differences between Fidesz and Jobbik?
Ummmmm... that they hate each other?

But seriously, Jobbik used to be a pretty much openly racist far right party whose candidates would post stuff about killing gypsies; they were also in bed with a militant neonazi group.

Their recent ambitions brought a shift towards the centre, with a so-called 'cuteness campaign', with the aim of presenting a face that is acceptable for the centre-right as well. At this point ideologically there's not much between them and Fidesz. They are not yet tainted as they have never been in power yet. They are financially supported by one of Orbán's formerly closest friends with whom he had a big fallout a couple of years back because of business disputes regarding the regime's media empire, among other things.

Gotta give one thing to Jobbik though: they at least had an actual party platform for the elections, unlike Fidesz. It was a teensy bit racist and authoritarian but at least there was something more than 'the Arabs are coming, hide your children'.
 

Ubik

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Ummmmm... that they hate each other?

But seriously, Jobbik used to be a pretty much openly racist far right party whose candidates would post stuff about killing gypsies; they were also in bed with a militant neonazi group.

Their recent ambitions brought a shift towards the centre, with a so-called 'cuteness campaign', with the aim of presenting a face that is acceptable for the centre-right as well. At this point ideologically there's not much between them and Fidesz. They are not yet tainted as they have never been in power yet. They are financially supported by one of Orbán's formerly closest friends with whom he had a big fallout a couple of years back because of business disputes regarding the regime's media empire, among other things.

Gotta give one thing to Jobbik though: they at least had an actual party platform for the elections, unlike Fidesz. It was a teensy bit racist and authoritarian but at least there was something more than 'the Arabs are coming, hide your children'.
Cheers for the overview. Sounds basically like it's UKIP holding a supermajority with more UKIP as the lead opposition (even down to the hating each other part).
 

Siorac

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Cheers for the overview. Sounds basically like it's UKIP holding a supermajority with more UKIP as the lead opposition (even down to the hating each other part).
Kinda though neither are as openly anti-EU as UKIP. Jobbik used to be but their centrist shift means they no longer advocate for leaving.

As for Fidesz, they are very careful not to antagonise Brussels beyond the point of no return and they are adamant that they only wish to maintain national sovereignty while still being committed to the EU. And with good reason: our economy depends on EU money. It would be disastrous for the new Fidesz-affiliated Hungarian economic elite to lose that though they probably stole enough already to live a cosy life in the Bahamas once the regime falls - which it would if we left or were removed from the EU. They want more though. That's our luck in a twisted way.
 

Adisa

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Work with an Hungarian lady. Even she says her people are cnuts.
 

Siorac

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Work with an Hungarian lady. Even she says her people are cnuts.
Ehh, we like shitting on each other, it's the Hungarian pastime. But the average Hungarian isn't that much different to your average European person. We're less conscious about democratic values than, say, the Dutch or the Swedish but apart from that...
 

Classical Mechanic

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It's just a fairly standard thing, surely. Bloke wins election, may have odious views, but you congratulate him, say you want to work together and then try and calm down their batshit craziness with various carrots.
Hardly global leaders leaping into bed with a right wing nutjob, as some are suggesting. Just normal international diplomacy.
Indeed. People are ridiculous. You don't start diplomatic relations by denouncing everything they stand for.
 

SwansonsTache

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this title :lol: you got it from the daily mail ?
there was no better option then orban anyway
"no better option anyway":lol:
Brilliant analysis from the hypocrite Hungarian who emigrated to Germany himself a while ago but seems happy to support all sort of right wing anti immigrants policies elsewhere (and in Germany if its directed against those bloody refugees).
And I see that the other troll @SwansonsTache has also arrived, who claims that he barely reads the CE forum because of all the snowflake lefties however seems happy to post right wing cheap shots once in a while just to go into hiding again when things take an unexpected turn like he did in the Van incident in Munster thread.

Good posts by @Siorac, just a short question if you don't mind: What happened with the regulation amendments regarding CEU? I remember the uproar but didn't really follow the outcome of the dispute.
 

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Is it just me that finds it funny that a country no one wants to go to anyway has such strict immigration laws?
 

SwansonsTache

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"no better option anyway":lol:
Brilliant analysis from the hypocrite Hungarian who emigrated to Germany himself a while ago but seems happy to support all sort of right wing anti immigrants policies elsewhere (and in Germany if its directed against those bloody refugees).
And I see that the other troll @SwansonsTache has also arrived, who claims that he barely reads the CE forum because of all the snowflake lefties however seems happy to post right wing cheap shots once in a while just to go into hiding again when things take an unexpected turn like he did in the Van incident in Munster thread.

Good posts by @Siorac, just a short question if you don't mind: What happened with the regulation amendments regarding CEU? I remember the uproar but didn't really follow the outcome of the dispute.
You enjoy following me around, don't you? Your sanctimonious leftist babbling is very tiresome.

I post plenty in the CE, but I do so in waves and not frequently, only when topics that interest me surfaces.

The day of the van attack they stopped four Islamists from performing a knife attack on the half-marathon as well, did you see me posting about that or making a thread?
 

JPRouve

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Is it just me that finds it funny that a country no one wants to go to anyway has such strict immigration laws?
They want to protect their ethnic and cultural homogeneity.;)
 

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It's just a fairly standard thing, surely. Bloke wins election, may have odious views, but you congratulate him, say you want to work together and then try and calm down their batshit craziness with various carrots.
Hardly global leaders leaping into bed with a right wing nutjob, as some are suggesting. Just normal international diplomacy.
They don't usually kiss as much ass in their congratulations as Boris did. Obviously we don't know the tone Netanyahu used, although considering who he is nothing would be that surprising.
 

Kentonio

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Is it just me that finds it funny that a country no one wants to go to anyway has such strict immigration laws?
Can I assume you've never been? I know at least a dozen western Europeans, many of them Brits, who live in Budapest.
 

Siorac

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"no better option anyway":lol:
Brilliant analysis from the hypocrite Hungarian who emigrated to Germany himself a while ago but seems happy to support all sort of right wing anti immigrants policies elsewhere (and in Germany if its directed against those bloody refugees).
And I see that the other troll @SwansonsTache has also arrived, who claims that he barely reads the CE forum because of all the snowflake lefties however seems happy to post right wing cheap shots once in a while just to go into hiding again when things take an unexpected turn like he did in the Van incident in Munster thread.

Good posts by @Siorac, just a short question if you don't mind: What happened with the regulation amendments regarding CEU? I remember the uproar but didn't really follow the outcome of the dispute.
CEU managed to come to an agreement with the state of New York that would satisfy the requirements outlined in the so-called Lex CEU that modified the higher education legislation, essentially targeting the CEU. However, the Hungarian government still hasn't ratified the agreement - certain press sources suggest that the CEU no longer believes Fidesz has any intention to sign it. The university is discussing opening a new campus in Vienna; officially, it is merely an expansion but speculation is rife that they are moving once it becomes abundantly clear that the Hungarian government does not give a shit about its own laws.
 

Siorac

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Can I assume you've never been? I know at least a dozen western Europeans, many of them Brits, who live in Budapest.
Budapest is a nice place and I love living here but he's still right: there is no threat of mass immigration here. Those streaming into Europe from Syria and similar places do not wish to stay in Hungary.

And trust me, the election campaign wasn't about Western immigrants. The government does not incite hatred against British expats and scared people in small villages are not worried about Dutch software developers.
 

KirkDuyt

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Can I assume you've never been? I know at least a dozen western Europeans, many of them Brits, who live in Budapest.
I've been to Budapest once. It was beautiful :)

But as Siorac mentioned above me, I think there are other countries who are higher on the list of places migrants flock to.
 

Kentonio

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And trust me, the election campaign wasn't about Western immigrants. The government does not incite hatred against British expats and scared people in small villages are not worried about Dutch software developers.
Yeah I know that wasnt an election campaign factor, although apparently the influx of wealthier foreigners and now the big rise in AirBnB is pissing off locals quite heavily. It's apparently made house prices explode.
 

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He won with 50% of votes! He must be be incredibly popular in Hungary, or the other parties not good enough to sell the message
 

Siorac

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Yeah I know that wasnt an election campaign factor, although apparently the influx of wealthier foreigners and now the big rise in AirBnB is pissing off locals quite heavily. It's apparently made house prices explode.
Yeah, that's true. But then that happens everywhere in big cities unless there is some regulation holding back the tide. Isn't London ludicrously expensive to live in now?

Not enough flats/houses, a lot of property wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, high demand because young people move to Budapest in increasing numbers - all this contributes to the explosion of prices.
 

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From what I saw, the Fidesz eletion campaign was mainly about the threat of incoming Muslims, be it refugees or economic migrants. The threat of Islamic terrorists was hyped to levels that would make the American right cringe. It was awful and to be honest, it was more what I would have expected from Jobbiks campaign, however again from the limited coverage I saw they were much more restrained.


I think Jobbik also underperformed massively and were expected to win far more seats. Hopefully @Siorac can confirm or deny all this and put me straight if I have gone wrong. As I have said, I was following the elections, but not avidly and only really relying on my usual Western Media sources for updates and information.
 

Siorac

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He won with 50% of votes! He must be be incredibly popular in Hungary, or the other parties not good enough to sell the message
And tons of people simply consume everything that the government-controlled media feeds them. In thousands of households there are basically three TV channels, for example: the state TV, TV2, and RTL. The former two are completely controlled by Fidesz, and when I say completely, I mean that they get detailed instructions directly from Fidesz; newscasters and show hosts of TV2 had posted a video message a few days before the elections in which they had outlined why they would be voting for Orbán. A friend of mine works at the state news agency; they regularly get angry phonecalls from different ministries if, say, they didn't publish a long enough piece quickly enough about the minister's latest press conference. Certain words and phrases are banned, some others must be used regularly; for example, the agency will not publish any official statement from opposing parties that names the son-in-law of the prime minister who is part of a massive corruption scandal.

In the last few months, ALL opposing parties were fined for one reason or another by the General Accounting Office, led by a Fidesz soldier; supposedly these fines were because of unlawful use of tax money in their campaign. Strangely enough, they had no issue with the Fidesz campaign even though OSCE's observers stated that the boundaries between party finances and government finances have been blurred to a very concerning extent. Fidesz' financial might is unparalleled as such because they can use government resources with impunity. It's very hard to get ANY message across in such an environment. But yes, the opposition is divided and lacks credibility for various reasons.
 
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JPRouve

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Thats a bs UKIP statement. The EU doesn't need to realize that something that it doesn't do doesn't work...
Just to add to this, FOM means freedom of movements for goods, capitals and workers. Too many people seem to think that it's a freedom for all, the only people allowed to move are people that move while doing their job(for example, truck drivers), people that are actively seeking for a job according to the country they are seeking the job in and people that found a job in a different country.
 

Siorac

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From what I saw, the Fidesz eletion campaign was mainly about the threat of incoming Muslims, be it refugees or economic migrants. The threat of Islamic terrorists was hyped to levels that would make the American right cringe. It was awful and to be honest, it was more what I would have expected from Jobbiks campaign, however again from the limited coverage I saw they were much more restrained.


I think Jobbik also underperformed massively and were expected to win far more seats. Hopefully @Siorac can confirm or deny all this and put me straight if I have gone wrong. As I have said, I was following the elections, but not avidly and only really relying on my usual Western Media sources for updates and information.
Jobbik talked a big game about winning the elections on their own and they had huge expectations but published surveys didn't really support those expectations. In the end they performed about the same as four years ago which I would say is their maximum potential. They tried to lead a positive campaign; they also talked about "sending immigrants home" but yes, they were much more restrained than Fidesz.

Yeah, the governing party's campaign was all about immigrants. For example, we had incredibly cringeworthy Facebook posts from Fidesz MPs that showed photos of women in burqa as well as women in tiny bikinis and the caption asked voters which one do they want to see at Balaton a few years from now... Stuff like that. Orbán did not enter into a debate with any of his opposition; his only media appearances were in the Fidesz-controlled media. To give you an example: on the day of the election origo.hu published an interview with him; the editor-in-chief asked hard-hitting questions such as:
- "Mr. Prime Minister, if the forces favouring massive immigration win, what economic triumphs of Fidesz will be in danger?"
- "What else is common among the candidates of the opposition other than that they are all the candidates of Soros?"

here it is, you can google translate it if you don't believe me.
 

carvajal

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And tons of people simply consume everything that the government-controlled media feeds them. In thousands of households there are basically three TV channels, for example: the state TV, TV2, and RTL. The former two are completely controlled by Fidesz, and when I say completely, I mean that they get detailed instructions directly from Fidesz; newscasters and show hosts of TV2 had posted a video message a few days before the elections in which they had outlined why they would be voting for Orbán. A friend of mine works at the state news agency; they regularly get angry phonecalls from different ministries if, say, they didn't publish a long enough piece quickly enough about the minister's latest press conference. Certain words and phrases are banned, some others must be used regularly; for example, the agency will not publish any official statement from opposing parties that names the son-in-law of the prime minister who is part of a massive corruption scandal.

In the last few months, ALL opposing parties were fined for one reason or another by the General Accounting Office, led by a Fidesz soldier; supposedly these fines were because of unlawful use of tax money in their campaign. Strangely enough, they had no issue with the Fidesz campaign even though OSCE's observers stated that the boundaries between party finances and government finances have been blurred to a very concerning extent. Fidesz' financial might is unparalleled as such because they can use government resources with impunity. It's very hard to get ANY message across in such an environment. But yes, the opposition is divided and lacks credibility for various reasons.
Thanks for the explanation.That usually happens with public tv's. Apart from immigration policies ,How is the rest of his government? work, health, education ... you think he has done things well?
Why do you think his immigration message has been successful? Which were the problems of Hungary in that regard in the past? Romanian gypsies? Or suddenly too many people from everywhere provoking anxiety in the locals?
 

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All the young and able Hungarians will be abroad which means all that's left are the Gammon and lazy, so not an unsurprising result.
 

botond

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"no better option anyway":lol:
Brilliant analysis from the hypocrite Hungarian who emigrated to Germany himself a while ago but seems happy to support all sort of right wing anti immigrants policies elsewhere (and in Germany if its directed against those bloody refugees).
And I see that the other troll @SwansonsTache has also arrived, who claims that he barely reads the CE forum because of all the snowflake lefties however seems happy to post right wing cheap shots once in a while just to go into hiding again when things take an unexpected turn like he did in the Van incident in Munster thread.

Good posts by @Siorac, just a short question if you don't mind: What happened with the regulation amendments regarding CEU? I remember the uproar but didn't really follow the outcome of the dispute.
yeah , like you can compare migrating within eu with letting in undocumented masses of people in , but that does not fit your agenda
 

langster

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Jobbik talked a big game about winning the elections on their own and they had huge expectations but published surveys didn't really support those expectations. In the end they performed about the same as four years ago which I would say is their maximum potential. They tried to lead a positive campaign; they also talked about "sending immigrants home" but yes, they were much more restrained than Fidesz.

Yeah, the governing party's campaign was all about immigrants. For example, we had incredibly cringeworthy Facebook posts from Fidesz MPs that showed photos of women in burqa as well as women in tiny bikinis and the caption asked voters which one do they want to see at Balaton a few years from now... Stuff like that. Orbán did not enter into a debate with any of his opposition; his only media appearances were in the Fidesz-controlled media. To give you an example: on the day of the election origo.hu published an interview with him; the editor-in-chief asked hard-hitting questions such as:
- "Mr. Prime Minister, if the forces favouring massive immigration win, what economic triumphs of Fidesz will be in danger?"
- "What else is common among the candidates of the opposition other than that they are all the candidates of Soros?"

here it is, you can google translate it if you don't believe me.
Thanks for the reply and I have no reason to doubt you at all. I saw the Burka/bikini ad and also heard about the interview and Soros related question. Soros was mentioned by Orban a few times in the reports I saw over the last few months, and never favourably.
 

JPRouve

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yeah , like you can compare migrating within eu with letting in undocumented masses of people in , but that does not fit your agenda
You are not supposed to let undocumented masses in though, that's were there is a problem with the far right agenda, they are lying on something fundamental. You are supposed to follow the Geneva convention/ECHR and receive asylum requests, anyone that fits the requirement have to be welcomed while the rest have to stay out or be expelled depending on every countries laws.
In theory it's relatively simple but in practice it's fairly difficult like we can see with Italy and Greece who are overwhelmed which is the reason behind the sharing of illegal immigrants who are still supposed to be ultimately filtered and expelled if they don't fit the asylum criterias.
 

botond

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You are not supposed to let undocumented masses in though, that's were there is a problem with the far right agenda, they are lying on something fundamental. You are supposed to follow the Geneva convention/ECHR and receive asylum requests, anyone that fits the requirement have to be welcomed while the rest have to stay out or be expelled depending on every countries laws.
In theory it's relatively simple but in practice it's fairly difficult like we can see with Italy and Greece who are overwhelmed which is the reason behind the sharing of illegal immigrants who are still supposed to be ultimately filtered and expelled if they don't fit the asylum criterias.
its difficult because of the bureaucratic incompetence of the EU , it works well for Australia for example
 

Siorac

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Thanks for the explanation.That usually happens with public tv's. Apart from immigration policies ,How is the rest of his government? work, health, education ... you think he has done things well?
Why do you think his immigration message has been successful? Which were the problems of Hungary in that regard in the past? Romanian gypsies? Or suddenly too many people from everywhere provoking anxiety in the locals?
I talked about the state-funded work program earlier in this thread, in reply to SwansonTache.

Healthcare? In the election campaign Orbán did not mention the word in any of his interviews. Seriously. Not once. Which more or less reflects the last 8 years. They've pretty much done nothing. The country is still losing doctors and nurses at an alarming rate because they are paid a lot better in Western countries. They haven't made things worse I suppose.

There had been a massive centralization effort in education. Certain functions had been moved from schools to regional offices that were also responsible for budgeting for all schools. This was pretty much a complete failure and has been partly reverted since. Either religious studies or secular "ethics" studies are now mandatory; in many schools pupils and parents are pressured to choose the religious option. Children have more classes than ever before, they spend over 30 hours in classes every week.

The school textbook market has been aggressively cornered and nationalised: instead of schools being able to freely choose between the ratified and accepted textbooks of private publishers, they can now only use the textbooks of the state-owned publishers. There was no debate, Parliament accepted the law two days after it was submitted even though the government's own lawyers noted that the planned legislation violates EU directives in multiple ways. The new textbooks also have a clear ideological direction; politically "trustworthy" people became the leading figures of the new publisher.

The government is also aggressively pushing out CEU, one of Budapest's most important educational institutions, because of its alleged ties to György Soros. I wrote about this, too, in this thread :)

Economically, it's a mixed bag. After the heights of the financial crisis, with mortgages and other loans based on foreign currency skyrocketing out of control, they turned these into forint-based loans, partly financed by new taxes on the banking sector. This you can call a leftist move. They reduced national debt by nationalising the mandatory private pension funds introduced in the nineties. They cut spending on the social safety net but poured massive money into the restructured state TV and into building tons of football stadiums, including one in Orbán's own backyard - it's a modern stadium with a capacity of 3500 in a village of 1500. The biggest problem economically is that everything is heavily dependent on political capital. Big multinational corporations were kept happy, mostly, but smaller companies have to face a very unpredictable environment where they simply must garner the favour of the regime. There is no fair competition.

They modernised certain aspects of bureaucracy so for example submitting your tax report is easier than ever, as well as things like changing your place of residence, acquiring new personal documents, those things. That's quite good.

They are aggressively trying to invade the judicial branch, trying to influence who can become a judge; they mean to create an administrative tribunal where the judges would be senior administrative officers, loyal to the Fidesz government. They eroded all the other democratic institutions, they are taking over the media - today it has been announced that a major opposition newspaper as well as a radio cannot continue to operate because of lack of finances - in its entirety, changed the consitution and the election system to favour the strongest party. They placed their party soldiers into the leadership of all important democratic and/or regulatory bodies and organisations. They have done massive damage by systematically destroying democratic values; their communication strategy intentionally devalues these in favour of "order" and "defending Hungary". In my opinion, these are historic crimes which set the country back by decades.
 

Siorac

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Thanks for the reply and I have no reason to doubt you at all. I saw the Burka/bikini ad and also heard about the interview and Soros related question. Soros was mentioned by Orban a few times in the reports I saw over the last few months, and never favourably.
Yeah, the Fidesz campaign kept insisting that all the opposing candidates are agents of Soros (not metaphorically or anything, LITERALLY). Which makes no fecking sense because in our current election system, a divided opposition helps the governing party tremendously. And the so-called Soros agents could not even coordinate, so they took votes off each other... but still, a huge part of Hungary ate it up that everyone against Fidesz is being paid by Soros. Who must be simultaneously the most devious and stupidest person alive if that is true.

I'm still waiting for my cheque though :(
 

JPRouve

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its difficult because of the bureaucratic incompetence of the EU , it works well for Australia for example
What do you mean by that, be more specific. And Australia is a country, it's misguided to compare it with the EU and the geography is kind of different.
 

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I'm still waiting for my cheque though :(
:lol:

What do you mean by that, be more specific. And Australia is a country, it's misguided to compare it with the EU and the geography is kind of different.
Exactly. You cannot compare Australia to the EU, especially not when talking about replicating immigration laws and how workable/effective they would be.
 

JPRouve

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Exactly. You cannot compare Australia to the EU, especially not when talking about replicating immigration laws and how workable/effective they would be.
People really need to keep in mind, that the EU doesn't control Homeland, that's the responsibility of the member states, everyone is responsible for his own borders, everyone is responsible for his population and everyone makes his own immigration rules. Now, there are rules that members of the Council of Europe and the UN agreed on these rules are in part in the ECHR and the Geneva conventions and it's the case for asylum laws.

There is no EU border police because most member states see it as a lost of sovereignty. Ironically, if the EU actually did what some suggests the "incompetence" would become a "dictatorship".
 

17 Van der Gouw

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I'm not here to defend this guy but I don't think he's far right at all. Nationalistic yes, xenophobic certainly, but that's not the same thing.

Also, can't seem to find anything about him making anti semitic comments or endorsements? Would somebody possibly point me in the right direction?

Again, I'm not standing up for Orban, I know very little about him. It does strike me however that the left is trying to use this to make Labour look better.

Is it just me that finds it funny that a country no one wants to go to anyway has such strict immigration laws?
Hungary is beautiful, and Budapest is an architectural and cultural gem :)