"Fergie vs Wenger" - A good read...

Pogue Mahone

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...from one of the better blogs out there.

Arsenal Should Take A Leaf From Fergie’s Book
Author: Scott the Red

Following Arsenal’s fourth successive draw in a row, which meant United claimed top spot in the league after falling five points behind just a few weeks previously, there was some talk questioning Arsene Wenger’s job security.

Former Chelsea boss, Jose Mourinho, has questioned Wenger’s position on a couple of occasions, most recently taunting, “Arsenal are a unique team. Their coach hasn’t won anything for years, but he’s an idol.” Whilst I don’t make a habit of agreeing with the not so special one, there is a lot of weight to what he is saying here. Mourinho understands the plight of Sir Alex Ferguson, under constant pressure to deliver results, which seemingly is not something Arsene Wenger has to deal with.

In 2005, the MEN Chief sports writer said, “if Fergie can arrest this shocking and alarming slump it will rank with anything he’s achieved in all his years at the club.” United had won nothing the season preceding this comment, the FA Cup the year before that, and the title the year before that. So essentially, after just one season with no trophy, the press were hot on the talk of Manchester United in freefall, of Ferguson losing the plot, with The Guardian writing a piece titled “Who is to blame for United’s decline?”

I have been very vocal in the past is championing Fergie following the dreadful press he got during those years between us winning the titles, despite picking up the FA and League Cups in this time period. However, it is undeniable that the wealth of Chelsea combined with our transition period knocked United off their perch, all be it temporarily, and the vultures circled excitedly.

After winning the league in 2003, United had to wait four seasons before getting their hands on the title again. After Arsenal put up a brave fight to reclaim the league for the majority of this season, it seems they don’t have the mental strength and experience to reclaim to do what United did, by claiming the title within the fourth season since their last win.

Following the late penalty at Birmingham, denying Arsenal a win, Wenger’s men have picked up just four points from a possible twelve. Wenger’s pick, William Gallas, showing himself up as unworthy of the captaincy at the club of our foes, has done little to change things around following his temper tantrum, other than publicly criticise his team mates. I can’t think of a title winning club that was lead to victory by a captain who left his team mates to deal with the last minute penalty (only had the penalty been saved and the man Gallas was supposed to be marking put away the rebound would the majority of Arsenal fans join everyone else in recognising what poor judgement and character that showed) or who cried in the centre circle whilst his team mates ran off the pitch to find out the latest news on their injured colleague*. When you compare this captaincy with that of Roy Keane, which was epitomised by his heroic display in Turin back in 1999, when sacrificing himself, playing like a man possessed to get us to the European Cup final, knowing that he would play no part in that historic match, that it really is no wonder Arsenal are falling by the wayside, now looking more concerned with fighting off Chelsea for second place than winning the league.

If Arsenal are to go more than four seasons without not only a league title, but any trophy at all, then what does this say about Wenger, and the unpressurised environment at the club?

It is without doubt that even Sir Alex Ferguson, the most successful manager ever in English football, would be given his marching orders long before he was given the opportunity to go four years with an empty trophy cabinet. It is interesting to look at Fergie’s track record at United when comparing the two managers. We all know the great man has won a sackful of trophies, but it is his consistency with winning as much as the number of times he’s won that should be noted.

Since Fergie’s first trophy in 1990, when he won the FA Cup ‘to save his job’, he hasn’t gone longer than one season without winning something with United. In the 17 years since that FA Cup success, United have seen just four years without a trophy.

1995 (won the double the season before, the double the season after), 1998 (won the league the season before, the Treble the season after), 2002 (won the league the year before, the league the year after), then the worst period, 2005 (won the FA Cup the year before, the League Cup the year after).

Now, before the ABUs start, Ferguson has of course spent more money than Wenger has done. Ferguson’s teams have always cost more than Wenger’s has. But how far can we take that argument? Chelsea’s team cost far more than United’s did last season, but that didn’t stop Fergie cruising to the title (and lest you forget both Nemanja Vidic and Gary Neville played in less league games than John Terry did last season, before the injury card gets pulled).

Whilst United have made available more funds for transfers, it cannot be ignored that the lack of spending at Arsenal is Wenger’s choice. He’s had the money but for whatever reason, has decided against expensive dips in to the transfer market, rather investing his time and effort in youth. This is a United tradition, dating back to Sir Matt Busby, which was again realised with our Double winning side in 1996. However, Ferguson has the nowse to combine the players from our youth system with big money signings.

This season, 25 players have represented United (not including the League Cup match where several of our youngsters got a run out), nine of them have come from our youth team, seven of them cost £7 million or less, and nine of them were big-money players. Fergie has the perfect balance of youth products, bargains and expensive signings.

Wenger would not pay over the odds for a player, it seemingly goes against his principles. When United were searching for a Roy Keane replacement, they had no choice but to pay the overinflated £18.6 million price tag for Michael Carrick. Whenever United are interested in a player, the transfer fee rises, and when you buy English players, you can always expect another few million quid slapped on to the transfer fee. However, I honestly believe that without Carrick last season, we would have not won the league. He gave us that little bit extra we would have been lacking in John O’Shea or Darren Fletcher, playing an important part in our well moulded team.

That said, this pairing from our youth team had a part to play in our title winning season, with O’Shea playing in 33 of the 38 league games last season, and Fletcher 24 games. They are important squad members, despite the criticism they sometimes endure, and players of their ability, featuring in as many games as they do (49 in total for JoS last season, 40 for Fletcher) would cost us a pretty penny. Their inclusion in our team is of course a credit to Ferguson.

Arsenal fans will not want to see the back of Arsene Wenger, even if he fails to win anything for a fourth year, and I am not being overly critical of this. However, Wenger’s reassurance over his future at Arsenal, being offered a “job for life” at the club not so long ago, could be having a costly effect on our title rivals. Whilst all managers strive for success, it is the pressures of the job that urge managers beyond imaginable realms to go out and achieve it. There is no doubt Fergie felt the pressure before that FA Cup win in 1990, and has likely felt it every year since. Wenger is given all the time in the World to develop his young players in to title contenders, with their mentality echoing something of the “next season” talk we hear from the dippers in Merseyside.

It is important to remember though that whilst Wenger is crafting a young side by choosing not to spend the wealth his club makes available to him, Sir Alex Ferguson is doing exactly the same. Close to half of the 25 players representing United this season are 24-years-old and younger, with equally bright, if not brighter, futures. Not including the keepers, who are both 30+ (with United having Ben Foster for the future regardless), there is less than a year in the average ages of the players who drew 2-2 at the Emirates earlier this season.

I can’t complain though. As for Wenger’s refusal to spend big, long may it continue. There is no trophy dished out in May for competing for the title with the cheapest squad, rather, the trophy awarded to the team who proves they’re the best over 38 games. With 29 games played, United are placed first in the league, and it would take a brave man to bet against that being the case come the end of the season.

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/arsene-should-take-a-leaf-from-fergies-book/

* Now that is an excellent point and one that hadn't occurred to me before now. Gallas was completely wrapped up in himself, when he threw that fit of pique. Eduardo's injury has been used as an excuse but if he was really worried about Eduardo, why didn't he try and find out how he was? :confused:
 

charleysurf

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That rant only makes sense if you take it for granted that Arsenal will win nothing this season while United will win something.

I don't.

If Arsenal win the league or the CL and United win nothing then it will be hard to make the argument that Wenger could learn something from Fergie.
 

Pogue Mahone

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That rant only makes sense if you take it for granted that Arsenal will win nothing this season while United will win something.

I don't.

If Arsenal win the league or the CL and United win nothing then it will be hard to make the argument that Wenger could learn something from Fergie.
Obviously.

But I interpret it more as giving Fergie credit than an attack on Wenger. Fergie's record is amazingly good but it only took a couple of mediocre seasons (by his own, incredibly high, standards) for people to start writing him off. Not least our own fans.

The vultures have always been quick to descend on SAF but Wenger does seem to be given a lot more leeway by the English press.
 

Cupid Stunt

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Very good article and thought provoking for the current time and weeks ahead.

I nearly cry when thinking of Keane's performance in Turin. I love how when Scholes got booked meaning he would miss the final he jumped in the air and nearly burst into tears, then Keano instantly slapped him around the head and he just got back to business..
 

mustaine

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Wouldn't this be the third season without a trophy for Arsenal if they don't win anything, I seem to remember them winning the FA Cup in 2005.
 

devilish

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Ferguson was is the man responsable for the transformation of Manchester United from a sleeping giant to a world beater. On that he deserves respect.

Wenger had built great sides from scratch by unearthing unknown talent and making the most out of them. Despite relying on small budgets he was capable of winning trophies against much richer sides and he always offered entertaining football which is a joy to watch. On that he also deserves respect.

In my opinion Wenger and Ferguson are the best managers the EPL had in the past decade. Many may want to mention Mourinho but lets face it, its easy to win trophies if youre given 100m per year to spend.
 

Pogue Mahone

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His basic point is that Wenger is allowed to underachieve because he's not under pressure. Which is basically bollocks.
I read it more about the fact that fans and the media are so quick to question Fergie, despite his awesome record but a lot less quick to criticise Wenger.

I don't think he's trying to claim that either manager is under less pressure to succeed than the other. They are both incredibly driven men, with the biggest pressure coming from within.
 

Sam

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His basic point is that Wenger is allowed to underachieve because he's not under pressure. Which is basically bollocks.
No trophy in 3 years is a massive under achievement, yet you never hear any calls for Wenger 's head....
 

Pogue Mahone

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Ferguson was is the man responsable for the transformation of Manchester United from a sleeping giant to a world beater. On that he deserves respect.

Wenger had built great sides from scratch by unearthing unknown talent and making the most out of them. Despite relying on small budgets he was capable of winning trophies against much richer sides and he always offered entertaining football which is a joy to watch. On that he also deserves respect.

In my opinion Wenger and Ferguson are the best managers the EPL had in the past decade.
Agreed. And by quite a margin.
 

charleysurf

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Obviously.

But there's a very real possibility they will end up potless. Again.

They may not, of course, but I still think that's a very pertinent article.
2 of the main points of the article seems to be that
(1) Wenger has let Gallas act like a child in a way that Fergie would never allow
(2) Wenger has made such a big deal of not spending too much on players that he has ended up costing his club a chance at trophies as that extra bit of quality might have seen them win the big prizes.

But these points will seem ridiculous if Wenger wins a trophy or two and Fergie wins nothing. Arsenal fans will say that :
(1) Gallas showing such passion seemed bad at the time, but in the end it was such passion that won us a trophy
(2) Wenger won a trophy or two without spending much money so it's even sweeter. Fergie spent a lot of money and won nothing.

I think it's better to see who ends up with the big trophies at the end of the season before we start saying Wenger messed up a potentally great season.

However, the general point about Wenger getting away with under-achievement in a way that Fergie could not is undeniably true.


:eek:Post 1999. I better save the next one for something good!
 

2Bullish

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Pretty good article, the gist being that Wenger is not under any pressure, therefore, when the pressure in on they cannot handle it. Conversely, SAF is under constant pressure and, therefore, is much better equipped to deal with it.

Makes perfect sense to me.
 

peterstorey

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I read it more about the fact that fans and the media are so quick to question Fergie, despite his awesome record but a lot less quick to criticise Wenger.

I don't think he's trying to claim that either manager is under less pressure to succeed than the other. They are both incredibly driven men, with the biggest pressure coming from within.
I don't think that stacks up. The media will hunt down anyone if they smell blood - if we don't win anything this season cue a shoal of "Wenger should have spent the cash, you don't win anything with kids etc etc". We also have plenty of new-age fans who think a few years without a major trophy is unacceptable. they were at it in the last close season "Wenger's taken us as far as he can, time for a change etc etc"
 

Cupid Stunt

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Ferguson was is the man responsable for the transformation of Manchester United from a sleeping giant to a world beater. On that he deserves respect.

Wenger had built great sides from scratch by unearthing unknown talent and making the most out of them. Despite relying on small budgets he was capable of winning trophies against much richer sides and he always offered entertaining football which is a joy to watch. On that he also deserves respect.

In my opinion Wenger and Ferguson are the best managers the EPL had in the past decade. Many may want to mention Mourinho but lets face it, its easy to win trophies if youre given 100m per year to spend.
Yes, Arsene built a team from scratch..

Seaman

Dixon, Adams, Bould/Keown, Winterburn

No worthwhile midfielders except Parlour.

Bergkamp, Wright.

Arsene added a midfield and hey presto.. (Ljungberg, Petit, Vieira, Overmars)

Cant question the work he has done since but Arsenal had the best Defense in the league, 2 great strikers and a top goalkeeper. The were anything but a poor side pre-Arsene.
 

Pogue Mahone

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2 of the main points of the article seems to be that
(1) Wenger has let Gallas act like a child in a way that Fergie would never allow
(2) Wenger has made such a big deal of not spending too much on players that he has ended up costing his club a chance at trophies as that extra bit of quality might have seen them win the big prizes.

But these points will seem ridiculous if Wenger wins a trophy or two and Fergie wins nothing. Arsenal fans will say that :
(1) Gallas showing such passion seemed bad at the time, but in the end it was such passion that won us a trophy
(2) Wenger won a trophy or two without spending much money so it's even sweeter. Fergie spent a lot of money and won nothing.

I think it's better to see who ends up with the big trophies at the end of the season before we start saying Wenger messed up a potentally great season.
(1) Gallas did act like a child. If they win any trophies, it will be despite this, not because of it. No matter what you read in the London media. Wenger's role in this is less clear but his captain's behaviour was a fecking embarrassment and Gallas' recent quotes blaming their dip on team-mates "losing their head" does him no favours either.

(2) The amount of money spent is irrelevent. It's not called the Accountant's League, after all. Fergie helped turn MUFC into the most profitable club in the land (pre-Glazer) so any money he did spend was clearly spent wisely. Wenger is phenomenal at getting more bang for his buck but it's only trophies that will be remembered.
 

Sam

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Same as you entering last season.
Yep, we had underachieved. And as a result, Fergie was under a lot of pressure, from both the fans and media alike.

Something that doesn't seem to apply to Wenger.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I don't think that stacks up. The media will hunt down anyone if they smell blood - if we don't win anything this season cue a shoal of "Wenger should have spent the cash, you don't win anything with kids etc etc". We also have plenty of new-age fans who think a few years without a major trophy is unacceptable. they were at it in the last close season "Wenger's taken us as far as he can, time for a change etc etc"
Fair point. I do get the impression that Wenger is a lot more popular amongst most journos, so they are a bit slower to sharpen their knives than they are when it comes to SAF.

"New-age fans" are a pain in the arse, aren't they? We've got more than our fair share. It's the price of success, I suppose.
 

devilish

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Yes, Arsene built a team from scratch..

Seaman

Dixon, Adams, Bould/Keown, Winterburn

No worthwhile midfielders except Parlour.

Bergkamp, Wright.

Arsene added a midfield and hey presto.. (Ljungberg, Petit, Vieira, Overmars)

Cant question the work he has done since but Arsenal had the best Defense in the league, 2 great strikers and a top goalkeeper. The were anything but a poor side pre-Arsene.
Arsenal had improved throughout the years, re inventing themselves and making the most out of their team. Its amazing how they always managed to do well when everyone had written them off.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Anyone read the comments on the original article? This one is a cracker.

"Does anyone else share a strange ambivalence towards Arsenal? Where my feelings towards the dippers are absolute regradless of there league position/current form, my feelings towards Arsenal depend on whether or not we are above them in the league. A couple of weeks ago my contempt for Arsenal could barely be contained. Mates who eulogised about their performance in the san siro were met with a curt “didn’t watch it mate.” My contempt for them never matched the heady days of the cup-semi in 2004, where i cannot remember pouring so much vitriol on an opposing team. Howver after we destroyed the “invincibles” in Oct 2004, my attitude softened to our effete cockney friends in the French colony of islington. After all they played great football. Their fans, on the whole, were still an affront to the principles of natural selection, but at least they were step up on the evolutionary ladder from the dippers. My feelings now are somewhat similar. What Wenger is doing at arsenal should be commended. Not since Cloughie, and currently Fergie, has one man completely embodied the ethos, spirit and attitude of a football club. I wager not a single gooner would consider for a second removing wenger from his duties. They are undoubtedly a work in progress. The only problem for them is that so are we. And we have the potential materials to create a true masterpiece, where arsenal simply have the potential to become a very very good football team."

Is it bad form to cut and paste comments from one message board to another? I've never been too hot on this whole "netiquette" malarkey.
 

peterstorey

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Yes, Arsene built a team from scratch..

....and hey presto.. Cant question the work he has done since but Arsenal had the best Defense in the league, 2 great strikers and a top goalkeeper. The were anything but a poor side pre-Arsene.
We were 20 points off the top when he arrived and the fabled back 4/5 were felt to have had their best days. He won the league in his first full season.
 

Sultan

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Purely from a footballing perspective, you'd have to be very biased to deny Wenger has been phenomenal during his time at Arsenal.

His signings, his teams style of play have been a revelation. His main shortcomings would be his teams lack of discipline.

Fergie, well he's just on another level. He's also proved it managing other teams without having the financial clout he has had at Old Trafford.
 

Sam

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Purely from a footballing perspective, you'd have to be very biased to deny Wenger has been phenomenal during his time at Arsenal.

His signings, his teams style of play have been a revelation. His main shortcomings would be his teams lack of discipline.
There is no doubt about that. He is a fantastic manager, and along with Fergie, the best in the League my an absolute country mile.

However, 3 years without a trophy is not good enough for a club like Arsenal, yet he never seems to be under any kind of pressure,which begs the question, why ?

Because if that was United, Chelsea, Madrid, Ac Milan etc, the manager would be under huge pressure, but why isn't Wenger ? Is it because Arsenal aren't ambitious enough ?
 

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We were 20 points off the top when he arrived and the fabled back 4/5 were felt to have had their best days. He won the league in his first full season.
Im just saying you had a good team there when he came thats all. I hear new Arsenal fans talk and they think you were in Division 1 before Arsene came. He is without a doubt in the Top 10 managers of all time probably the Top 5. I totally agree with what Sultan said regarding what he has achieved while in charge of your club.
 

devilish

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Yes. That is why Ranieri before Mourinho was such a success and Inter have been winning Serie A title's for years on end.
Ranieri was never a good manager. He was good for a small team at Fiorentina or Newcastle standard but he is far from a winner. In fact Juve are thinking of changing him next year.
 

FlawlessThaw

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We were 20 points off the top when he arrived and the fabled back 4/5 were felt to have had their best days. He won the league in his first full season.
Liverpool were 20 points of us last season. If they added a quality right winger, full back, striker....
 

Cupid Stunt

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There is no doubt about that. He is a fantastic manager, and along with Fergie, the best in the League my an absolute country mile.

However, 3 years without a trophy is not good enough for a club like Arsenal, yet he never seems to be under any kind of pressure,which begs the question, why ?

Because if that was United, Chelsea, Madrid, Ac Milan etc, the manager would be under huge pressure, but why isn't Wenger ? Is it because Arsenal aren't ambitious enough ?
I disagree, you have to take into account the unimaginable effects Roman Abramovich has had on the Premier League.
 
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Purely from a footballing perspective, you'd have to be very biased to deny Wenger has been phenomenal during his time at Arsenal.

His signings, his teams style of play have been a revelation. His main shortcomings would be his teams lack of discipline.

Fergie, well he's just on another level. He's also proved it managing other teams without having the financial clout he has had at Old Trafford.
Agreed
 

Sam

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I disagree, you have to take into account the unimaginable effects Roman Abrimovich has had on the Premier League.
Well yes, but it's still 3 years with no trophy. That's The PL, FA Cup, Champions League and Carling Cup.

So thats 3 years in 4 competitions. Which works out at 12 competitions, no wins.
 

Sam

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OK Sam it's 20% of your life but it ain't that long for the rest of us.
In football terms it is.

If that was any other club, the manager would be under at least a small amount of pressure, and you know it.
 

spinoza

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Well the obvious ones. Much like you would have difficulty hanging on to yours if you didn't win the PL or CL.
Well, the only one I can think of is Fabregas, who seems fairly happy. The others have either only broken through in the last couple of seasons or transferred in a couple of seasons ago (or less).

Okay, Hleb I suppose. He's only had one good season so far though.

EDIT - Guess you could add Toure to that list too.