Fergie's obsession with picking old players in midfield

[Ash_G]

Thing is you can't have it both ways, Giggs was deemed fit enough to be the guy to help keep track of Ronaldo and their left back and largely did an excellent job, there's no reason why he couldn't have done a good job against City. He didn't have a good game no doubt but few did and it wasn't all due to him.

Ideally I'm sure Jones would have played there, and this probably highlights our lack of midfield choices but really it wasn't just giggs. I think we would have struggled with clev as well because a big problem was us pushing Rooney and RVP high where as they already had silva dropping off and then had Tevez floating as well, our two were always outnumbered and neither Giggs or Clev offer the stability Jones does.

 

[Tonjo]

And Giggs is scared to challenge? He was reckless if anything last night !

It is very easy to be reckless as it will not get you injured because you may be able to plan it and you are always on top of the situation.
But going in on 50-50 situation is totally different and it is also 50-50 % that you may be injured. Norman Hunter, the late Jim Holton, Graeme Souness, Kenny Burns, Roy Keane, Bryan Robson are some of those hard men when in a 50-50 situation will never pull out. On many occasions, when there is a 50-50 situation, you can see or will feel that Giggs will not go in and try to win the ball.

 

[SirFergie]

Welbeck should have played centrally to nullify Toure. Then a narrow 4 of Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley and Giggs should have been good enough to counter the threat city have centrally. I think that was the biggest mistake.

 

[Revan]

Welbeck should have played centrally to nullify Toure. Then a narrow 4 of Valencia, Carrick, Cleverley and Giggs should have been good enough to counter the threat city have centrally. I think that was the biggest mistake.

Yep, a tactic similar to that against Madrid could have potentially work.

 

[noodlehair]

I think SAF might had played Jones with Carrick and Giggs/Cleverly in a mid trio if we had more fit CBs against City. Jones was brilliant as as CB but he did a very good job against Real away as well. Rooney and Welbeck on the wings.

He was fecking awful there. Sold his position stupidly over and over again, including for the second goal.

Is this going to be the David Luiz thing all over again?

Playing him in different positions every fecking week definitely isn't helping him.

 

[Swaters16]

He was fecking awful there. Sold his position stupidly over and over again, including for the second goal.

Is this going to be the David Luiz thing all over again?

Playing him in different positions every fecking week definitely isn't helping him.

Jones was class at CB. Don't know what game you watched. He might have done better for the second goal but he wasn't the only one.

 

[Adam-Utd]

It is very easy to be reckless as it will not get you injured because you may be able to plan it and you are always on top of the situation.
But going in on 50-50 situation is totally different and it is also 50-50 % that you may be injured. Norman Hunter, the late Jim Holton, Graeme Souness, Kenny Burns, Roy Keane, Bryan Robson are some of those hard men when in a 50-50 situation will never pull out. On many occasions, when there is a 50-50 situation, you can see or will feel that Giggs will not go in and try to win the ball.

True, but then perhaps he feels the risk of getting a potentially career ending injury isnt worth it? Phil Jones is sometimes too brave, the amount of times he flys almost headfirst into challenges and then ends up half dead is silly.

Even in the derby he had a nasty fall when colliding with Tevez, he got injured for a few weeks last time he tried something like that.

 

[Sarni]

He was fecking awful there. Sold his position stupidly over and over again, including for the second goal.

Is this going to be the David Luiz thing all over again?

Playing him in different positions every fecking week definitely isn't helping him.

He was very good, he got done for the second goal but it was hardly a big mistake, he didn't anticipate Aguero's move and was too late with the block but it was a great move by Aguero too.

 

[noodlehair]

It was a fecking huge and very simple mistake, and not the only one he made in the game by a long shot. He needs a position and to just play in it, because at the moment wherever he plays, it looks like he doesn't have a clue how to play there.

 

[Genius Me!]

I thought Jones was fantastic.

 

[noodlehair]

Jones was class at CB. Don't know what game you watched. He might have done better for the second goal but he wasn't the only one.

He wasn't "class" there at all. He kept making stupid errors and then eventually this directly led to a goal, costing us the game. If this is defined as "class" on here now then god help this place.

To be honest, I can only remember him playing well once all season, in the Madrid away game, and even then, it's been escalated to this herculean type effort when in reality all he did was do a job in the one area of the pitch that Real Madrid controlled for most of the night.

He WILL be a very good player. At the moment he's this guy who we just sort of play wherever we want instead of putting someone who can actually play in that position there. Kind of like some ridiculously luxury John O'Shea replacement.

 

[Chabon]

He had a full-on John Terry performance.

 

[noodlehair]

I thought Jones was fantastic.

If David De Gea played in a game where he had little to do all match, and then suddenly fumbled a shot into his own net and lost his team the game with 10 minutes to go, would you think he was fantastic?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I thought Jones played well.

Last season I remember having serious doubts about his performances in central defence, so feared the worst when I saw his name on the team-sheet.

Could have done better for the Aguero goal but definitely wasn't a howler of a mistake. Desperately unlucky not to prevent the first goal too.

Overall, I'm really pleased with the improvement I've noticed in Jones between this season and last, in every position he's played. Despite all the injuries.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

If David De Gea played in a game where he had little to do all match, and then suddenly fumbled a shot into his own net and lost his team the game with 10 minutes to go, would you think he was fantastic?

Wait? What? Jones had little to do all match?

You must have been impressed with the performance of our midfield then. To protect him so effectively.

 

[noodlehair]

I've also forgotten his other key contribution of trying to clear Van Persie's shot off the line, only to be foiled by Vincent Kompany's bizarre shaped head.

So basically, he cost his team a goal at one end, and tried to cost them one at the other, and did a bunch of running around like an idiot in between, and this counts as being amazing.

England.

 

[noodlehair]

Wait? What? Jones had little to do all match?

You must have been impressed with the performance of our midfield then. To protect him so effectively.

He did. Rio covered for him a lot. City never really got going in the attacking sense.

The Aguero goal was embarassing to be honest. He just ran and Jones sold himself without even forcing Aguero to do anything. He took four of his own players out of the game by being a feckwit. I don't care if he's going to run around being John Terry when he costs us the game in the process. I'd rather he just defend properly first of all.

I don't know what our midfield was doing, but then we did have a near 40 year old playing in a 2 man set up again. I don't really know what Ferguson expects it to do when he does that, but then the whole team has been playing so poorly of late I'm not sure how much difference it would have made.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He did. Rio covered for him a lot. City never really got going in the attacking sense.

The Aguero goal was embarassing to be honest. He just ran and Jones sold himself without even forcing Aguero to do anything. He took four of his own players out of the game by being a feckwit. I don't care if he's going to run around being John Terry when he costs us the game in the process. I'd rather he just defend properly first of all.

I don't know what our midfield was doing, but then we did have a near 40 year old playing in a 2 man set up again. I don't really know what Ferguson expects it to do when he does that, but then the whole team has been playing so poorly of late I'm not sure how much difference it would have made.

A great job, by the sounds of things. What with Phil Jones having little to do.

 

[thegregster]

He did. Rio covered for him a lot. City never really got going in the attacking sense.

The Aguero goal was embarassing to be honest. He just ran and Jones sold himself without even forcing Aguero to do anything. He took four of his own players out of the game by being a feckwit. I don't care if he's going to run around being John Terry when he costs us the game in the process. I'd rather he just defend properly first of all.

I don't know what our midfield was doing, but then we did have a near 40 year old playing in a 2 man set up again. I don't really know what Ferguson expects it to do when he does that, but then the whole team has been playing so poorly of late I'm not sure how much difference it would have made.

It happens with young players. Its just part of the package when you develop your own. Its worth it in the long run. You wont see the best of Jones till he is 25+. Possible even a bit later. Besides Augero is one of the best strikers in the world when on form. He learned a valuable lesson.

 

[noodlehair]

It happens with young players. Its just part of the package when you develop your own. Its worth it in the long run. You wont see the best of Jones till he is 25+. Possible even a bit later. Besides Augero is one of the best strikers in the world when on form. He learned a valuable lesson.

Don't disagree with any of that. There's very few defenders around Jones's age who aren't error prone or a bit mental positionally. Even Evans has only really turned that side of his game into a strength within the past year.

Just think this idea that he was amazing on Monday must have come from some kind of fantasy reality. He made loads of silly errors, tried to clear his own team's shot off the line, and then cost his team the game with an extremely daft piece of defending.

What were these amazing things he did to compensate for these errors?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is all very confusing. I'm hearing that our midfield was non-existent. Now one of our central defenders was apparently having a shocker too.

City scored 9 goals in their last 3 games (without Aguero) but, goals aside, I can't remember De Gea making any saves on monday night.

Something isn't adding up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Actually he may have picked up a daisy-cutter from outside the box at one point...

 

[Brwned]

I don't think Jones was brilliant but for god's sake Noodle, there's no way he made error after error. You just don't like his style of play and/or the praise he gets so you talk about all these positional mistakes that no-one else can argue against. No-one else sees them so either you have this razor-sharp eye for positional play or you just like talking a load of bollocks. You remember a couple of moments where he wasn't in the right position and then convince yourself he's been doing that all game.

 

[Rowem]

The Aguero goal was embarassing to be honest. He just ran and Jones sold himself without even forcing Aguero to do anything. He took four of his own players out of the game by being a feckwit.

Agree, I was very pissed off with Jones at the time.

That mistake ultimately cost us the game in the end.

Obviously he's young n' learnin' and all, and was only played at CB out of necessity. He also made a great goal preventing challenge in the first half and was generally decent. But for me his mistake for the 2nd goal is the single biggest factor in the result. More so than the midfield, which on here is the default choice for which to blame every bad result on.

 

[apotheosis]

Jones was the best of a bad bunch against City. Looking at his performance in isolation he did make a few errors - understandable for a youngster who hasn't played CB that often - but i felt he did pretty well considering those circumstances in such a big game.

So for me it was good not great from Jones, but the fact he was still our MOTM by some distance should put into perspective just how poor the rest of the team was.

In my view SAF has to take full responsibility for yet another inept performance against a quality team. Bummed twice by chelsea, and then again by city at OT, and all because he gives the midfield no real chance by playing only 2 midfielders against a quality opponents 3.

This just forces us to concede possession and therefore seriously limits our opportunities to create going forward. Very frustrating and i cannot for the life of me understand how he thinks we are going to control games persisting with this system, which to me seems more detrimental to our own performance than it does to our opponents!

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Agree, I was very pissed off with Jones at the time.

That mistake ultimately cost us the game in the end.

Obviously he's young n' learnin' and all, and was only played at CB out of necessity. He also made a great goal preventing challenge in the first half and was generally decent. But for me his mistake for the 2nd goal is the single biggest factor in the result. More so than the midfield, which on here is the default choice for which to blame every bad result on.

What about Giggs' backheel? noods seems to have it in for Jones, yeah he could have done better but it was a brilliant finish. He shouldn't have been allowed to come so far across. Jones wasn't fantastic but he showed a lot of heart which is something that has been missing from us recently.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Jones was the best of a bad bunch against City. Looking at his performance in isolation he did make a few errors - understandable for a youngster who hasn't played CB that often - but i felt he did pretty well considering those circumstances in such a big game.

So for me it was good not great from Jones, but the fact he was still our MOTM by some distance should put into perspective just how poor the rest of the team was.

In my view SAF has to take full responsibility for yet another inept performance against a quality team. Bummed twice by chelsea, and then again by city at OT, and all because he gives the midfield no real chance by playing only 2 midfielders against a quality opponents 3.

This just forces us to concede possession and therefore seriously limits our opportunities to create going forward. Very frustrating and i cannot for the life of me understand how he thinks we are going to control games persisting with this system, which to me seems more detrimental to our own performance than it does to our opponents!

Bummed? Really, I know we were poor in all 3 games but bar Chelsea's 2nd half at OT I felt the opposition weren't much better and ultimately the differences were errors or moments of quality.

 

[noodlehair]

I don't think Jones was brilliant but for god's sake Noodle, there's no way he made error after error. You just don't like his style of play and/or the praise he gets so you talk about all these positional mistakes that no-one else can argue against. No-one else sees them so either you have this razor-sharp eye for positional play or you just like talking a load of bollocks. You remember a couple of moments where he wasn't in the right position and then convince yourself he's been doing that all game.

No one else can see them? Maybe the second goal the other night only happened inside my mind?

I don't like his style of play because it's too often brainless, and all that charging around actually adds little to our overall performance if in the process he literally costs us the game. His ball retention is also very poor/erratic for someone who runs around so much.

I'm sure he'll get better and iron out the mistakes, or at least I reckon he will, and he's got bags of potential. What I don't get is this caf thing (and it only happens on here) of just pretending he's already perfect. At the moment more often than not he's an error prone loon. Sometimes he's great and sometimes teams just take advantage.

 

[apotheosis]

Agree, I was very pissed off with Jones at the time.

That mistake ultimately cost us the game in the end.

Obviously he's young n' learnin' and all, and was only played at CB out of necessity. He also made a great goal preventing challenge in the first half and was generally decent. But for me his mistake for the 2nd goal is the single biggest factor in the result. More so than the midfield, which on here is the default choice for which to blame every bad result on.

That one error did not cost us the game. The system cost us the game in my view because we were second best throughout the match. Aguero has to be given credit for scoring a great goal out of not even a snippet of a chance.

no our defending did not help but it would be hard to argue after watching the game that we ever looked like getting on top. We had equalised without really doing anything, but a draw was the very best we could have hoped for afterwards, as the collective and individual standard of our performance didn't even warrant that im afraid.

 

[Rowem]

What about Giggs' backheel? noods seems to have it in for Jones, yeah he could have done better but it was a brilliant finish. He shouldn't have been allowed to come so far across. Jones wasn't fantastic but he showed a lot of heart which is something that has been missing from us recently.

What about Giggs' backheel?

Midfielders give the ball away in the middle of the pitch several times a game. It's expected. Unfortunately on this occasion it led to Milner scoring a with a deflected shot from outside the box.

Defenders simply can not afford to let a player run past them unchallenged and have a clear shot at goal.

But yes in general I rate Jones very highly and he had a decent game otherwise. He'll be a huge player for us. But in this game, he cost us.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

No one else can see them? Maybe the second goal the other night only happened inside my mind?

I don't like his style of play because it's too often brainless, and all that charging around actually adds little to our overall performance if in the process he literally costs us the game. His ball retention is also very poor/erratic for someone who runs around so much.

I'm sure he'll get better and iron out the mistakes, or at least I reckon he will, and he's got bags of potential. What I don't get is this caf thing (and it only happens on here) of just pretending he's already perfect. At the moment more often than not he's an error prone loon. Sometimes he's great and sometimes teams just take advantage.

Whilst I agree he's very raw he's not an error prone loon more often than not. The Caf's fluctuated from 'New Duncan Edwards' to 'New John O'Shea' with Jones which is baffling in equal measures.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

What about Giggs' backheel?

Midfielders give the ball away in the middle of the pitch several times a game. It's expected. Unfortunately on this occasion it led to Milner scoring a with a deflected shot from outside the box.

Defenders simply can not afford to let a player run past them unchallenged and have a clear shot at goal.

But yes in general I rate Jones very highly and he had a decent game otherwise. He'll be a huge player for us. But in this game, he cost us.

Who was Giggs backheeling it to? It was a silly error from an experienced player. It was hardly a clear shot on goal, it was a brilliant finish but Jones should know Aguero's wants to go on his right and Welbeck should have his left covered.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

No one else can see them? Maybe the second goal the other night only happened inside my mind?

I don't like his style of play because it's too often brainless, and all that charging around actually adds little to our overall performance if in the process he literally costs us the game. His ball retention is also very poor/erratic for someone who runs around so much.

I'm sure he'll get better and iron out the mistakes, or at least I reckon he will, and he's got bags of potential. What I don't get is this caf thing (and it only happens on here) of just pretending he's already perfect. At the moment more often than not he's an error prone loon. Sometimes he's great and sometimes teams just take advantage.

So you don't like his style of play. Well how about putting that to one side and judging his performance in the game in question on it's own merits. There's even a convenient youtube video a few posts higher up to help you with your recall of events.

It was a good, solid performance. Marred by one piece of poor defending. Not brilliant but decent enough and a big improvement on a lot of his defensive performances from last season. You're just doing your usual shtick of opting for negative hyperbole when the reality is a lot less dramatic.

 

[Rowem]

That one error did not cost us the game. The system cost us the game in my view because we were second best throughout the match. Aguero has to be given credit for scoring a great goal out of not even a snippet of a chance.

no our defending did not help but it would be hard to argue after watching the game that we ever looked like getting on top. We had equalised without really doing anything, but a draw was the very best we could have hoped for afterwards, as the collective and individual standard of our performance didn't even warrant that im afraid.

There's an obsession on here with systems, tactics, possession stats etc on here. End of the day, City had to win the game, not us. We gave them very little. Aguero - as you said - had not even a snippet of a chance to score. But he did so because Jones defended, like, well, a raw youngster playing his first game at CB for fecking ages in high profile match. Aguero ran straight passed him.

We set up the way we set up. We counter attack in games like this. It's what we do. Blaming every bad result on the setup is just stupid. Occasionally it doesn't work for us. More often than not it does.

In big games like this it's not the system that decides the winner. It's individual moments - either moments of brilliance or mistakes. Jones made the biggest mistake of the game.

In an attacking sense we didn't create much. It's too easy for the great footballing philosophers of the Cafe to attribute this to a flawed system and style. I prefer the outlook that it's the individuals on the pitch that matter. They win you games and they lose you games. Currently too many of our attacking players are going through slumps for one reason or another and they are not putting in good performances. On Monday night, to compile SAF's problems, Jones made the biggest mistake of the lot.

People can sit around debating the overall team philosophy and the setup as much as you like. It's a ridiculously tedious and fundamentally flawed exercise. So, I'm not going to get dragged into a multi-page quote off about the minutiae of the game with you. I've noticed you do that quite regularly, as have I on too many occasions, although I don't think we've crossed eachother before. I'm going to save us both time. You think it's down to team tactics, style, etc. I think it's down to individuals. We won't agree, so we might as well agree to disagree before we start an ego-driven multi-quote-off and derail this thread.

 

[noodlehair]

What about Giggs' backheel? noods seems to have it in for Jones, yeah he could have done better but it was a brilliant finish. He shouldn't have been allowed to come so far across. Jones wasn't fantastic but he showed a lot of heart which is something that has been missing from us recently.

I don't have it in for Jones. RE: Giggs' backheel and general performance...look at what this thread is about and who started it.

Just don't see the point banging on about the obvious anymore. Plus Cleverley's been poor in his last two games and Anderson the same. The thing where we were obviously going to end up relying too much on Carrick has happened.

I'm questioning the idea that Jones was "amazing" in a game where he cost his team the match. Don't get the idea with praising people for doing things wrong.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I agree with noods, Jones made a serious error when he went for that tackle on Aguero. A player at his level shouldn't make a mistake like that, it's elementary.

Jones has lots of good qualities but there are times when it seems he just doesn't think. Granted he is still young and hopefully he can become more astute in the future.

That being said, I think it sometimes common for good young players to have matches like that; goal, own goal red card kind of stuff, he was everywhere and that is a good thing because he will get better.

 

[noodlehair]

So you don't like his style of play. Well how about putting that to one side and judging his performance in the game in question on it's own merits. There's even a convenient youtube video a few posts higher up to help you with your recall of events.

It was a good, solid performance. Marred by one piece of poor defending. Not brilliant but decent enough and a big improvement on a lot of his defensive performances from last season. You're just doing your usual shtick of opting for negative hyperbole when the reality is a lot less dramatic.

I already did judge his performance on it's merits. That was the point I made in the first instance. You ignored it and picked one tiny part of my post in order to make some silly sarcastic point about midfield, so I ignored you.

His defending wasn't great all game. It was better than in SOME games last year, but I'd be thinking of games like the home one against Chelsea or Newcastle away, where he was just all over the place.

In any case, I'm not saying he was awful. I said he made some errors and cost us the game with a moment of rubbishness, and don't get why so many people seem to think this constitutes "amazing". It certainly doesn't. The potential to be amazing is certainly there but that's a very different thing and will take a fair bit of time.

Remember when David Luiz was "amazing"? I mean, Jones is not David Luiz, but he does sell himself positionally far too often to either make rash challenges or bring the ball into areas where he's not actually that good at keeping it.

I don't like him in midfield at all, but that's because I don't think he's a midfielder. There's this other myth that he was "amazing" there last season, based on one game against an awful Wolves team where Michael Carrick was easily the best player on the pitch. This season he played well in midfield against Real Madrid, but in the sense of someone playing in midfield to do a tactical job, rather than being an amazing midfielder.

If the future I'd rather think playing Jones in that kind of role would end up being a waste.

 

[Fergus' son]

No way can Jones' display be described as 'fecking awful'. Like Pogue said, it's nothing more than negative hyperbole.

 

[Fergus' son]

He was fecking awful there. Sold his position stupidly over and over again, including for the second goal.

Is this going to be the David Luiz thing all over again?

Playing him in different positions every fecking week definitely isn't helping him.

I already did judge his performance on it's merits. That was the point I made in the first instance. You ignored it and picked one tiny part of my post in order to make some silly sarcastic point about midfield, so I ignored you.

His defending wasn't great all game. It was better than in SOME games last year, but I'd be thinking of games like the home one against Chelsea or Newcastle away, where he was just all over the place.

In any case, I'm not saying he was awful. I said he made some errors and cost us the game with a moment of rubbishness, and don't get why so many people seem to think this constitutes "amazing". It certainly doesn't. The potential to be amazing is certainly there but that's a very different thing and will take a fair bit of time.

Remember when David Luiz was "amazing"? I mean, Jones is not David Luiz, but he does sell himself positionally far too often to either make rash challenges or bring the ball into areas where he's not actually that good at keeping it.

I don't like him in midfield at all, but that's because I don't think he's a midfielder. There's this other myth that he was "amazing" there last season, based on one game against an awful Wolves team where Michael Carrick was easily the best player on the pitch. This season he played well in midfield against Real Madrid, but in the sense of someone playing in midfield to do a tactical job, rather than being an amazing midfielder.

If the future I'd rather think playing Jones in that kind of role would end up being a waste.

You can see where the 'confusion' came from.

 

[apotheosis]

Bummed? Really, I know we were poor in all 3 games but bar Chelsea's 2nd half at OT I felt the opposition weren't much better and ultimately the differences were errors or moments of quality.

Ok, bummed may be a bit strong, but there was no doubt who looked most comfortable in all of those games, and it certainly wasn't us! I don't like to use the term 'dominated' because people tend to confuse that with 'completely dominated'.

but one thing is without question in my view, and that is that we were unable to gain a foothold in any of those games. City have been struggling and Chelsea even more so, yet they were both capable of producing a cohesive team performance we simply had no answer to.

Our squad might be strong and that is probably why we are walking the title, but our first 11 is simply not able to compete with teams who press us high, and display sharp passing and movement. That was more than evident last season and despite RVP's early brilliance, it is now fairly clear that many of the issues we had last season still remain unaddressed, and we are suffering for that.