Fidel Castro dies aged 90

[Chorley1974]

I didn't say that, I just said that if we consider the actions of a leader to be the actions of a state then 14,000 people killed would be relatively minor. That's accurate, as far as I can tell.


I agree, we can criticize both. Any murder is deplorable.


I try to avoid ad hominem as much as possible.

Anyway, comparisons arise as a matter of course. They are the logical conclusions of exercising logic.

Please stop flogging this horse.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Please stop flogging this horse.

What horse?

In what way is the word "change" historically incorrect propaganda?

It's the placement of the word. The US wasn't trying to invade Cuba to change social conditions for Cubans, it was trying to invade Cuba in order to own Cuba for Americans. It cared little for these abuses under the regime of Batista.

Everything is loaded with propaganda, intentional or otherwise. It's just the way humans are.

Say they are ideologically slanted toward the United States, does your attack on the source make what they wrote in the article about Castro's numerous human rights abuses untrue?

I don't doubt that Castro has a very bad record on human rights, although I would doubt this agency a lot. More so after having read this.

 

[Chorley1974]

What horse?



It's the placement of the word. The US wasn't trying to invade Cuba to change social conditions for Cubans, it was trying to invade Cuba in order to own Cuba for Americans. It cared little for these abuses under the regime of Batista.

Everything is loaded with propaganda, intentional or otherwise. It's just the way humans are.

I don't doubt that Castro has a very bad record on human rights, although I would doubt this agency a lot. More so after having read this.

The dead one.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

As much as there's plenty of merit in a discussion on his impact, whether he had a positive/negative influence on Cuba and the world etc, the hero worship for him you see in some sectors as this great leader is rather baffling.

An influential man no doubt, but one who oversaw human rights abuses, was inherently anti-democratic, censored the press, and was no stranger to backing plenty of revolutionary groups out there who aligned with his views or interests irrespective of how damaging those people were. Not to mention he was willing to cosy up with a pretty awful Soviet regime who were no strangers to terrible activities themselves.

I think one of the worst things about him is how he set himself up as a demagogue. It's right out of the authoritarian playbook, but it was weirdly perpetuated by many westerners. Similar thing with Che Guevara.

 

[JustAFan]

Depends on who you ask mate, there will be millions of people in the world where the US whether through military or political meddling lives are much worse off. I'm all for human rights and i'm not saying Castro is some sort of saint, but the hypocrisy in this thread ridiculous, a bit of balance in views is required.

But where is the hypocrisy in this thread?
Who is it that has been trying to defend wrongs perpetrated by a leader by pointing out good things he has done? Or trying to rationalize the wrongs by pointing the fingers at others? Or excuse away the murder of tens of thousands, while at the same time lecturing others on have moral convictions?

 

[berbatrick]

Also, I think the criticism of Cuban policies towards gays is a little misplaced, given the sharp change in the 80s when the movement was taking off all over the west. Today Cuba has sexual re-assignment surgery as part of its universal healthcare.

For an idea of how quickly the change happened:

In 1975, the People's Supreme Court found in favour of a group of marginalised gay artists who were claiming compensation and reinstatement in their place of work. The court's ruling was the initial change in official attitudes towards gays and lesbians. In the same year, a new Ministry of Culture was formed under the leadership of Armando Hart Dávalos, resulting in a more liberal cultural policy. In addition, a commission was established to investigate homosexuality, leading to the decriminalisation of same-sex relationships in 1979.

Cuban gays were expelled or took the opportunity to leave Cuba during the 1980 Mariel boatlift. From the early stages of the massive exodus, the government described homosexuals as part of the "scum" that needed to be discarded so the socialist society could be purified.[36] Some homosexuals were given the ultimatum of either imprisonment (or extended terms for those already imprisoned) or leaving the country, although Fidel Castro publicly denied that anyone was being forced to leave.

In 1981, the Ministry of Culture stated in a publication entitled "In Defence of Love" that homosexuality was a variant of human sexuality. The ministry argued that homophobic bigotry was an unacceptable attitude inherited by the revolution and that all sanctions against gays should be opposed.[20]

In 1986, the National Commission on Sex Education publicly opined that homosexuality was a sexual orientation and that homophobia should be countered by education.[20] Gay author Ian Lumsden has claimed that since 1986 there is "little evidence to support the contention that the persecution of homosexuals remains a matter of state policy".

In 1988, the government repealed the 1938 Public Ostentation Law and the police received orders not to harass LGBT people. In a 1988 interview with Galician television, Castro criticised the rigid attitudes that had prevailed towards homosexuality.

In 1995, Cuban drag queens led the annual May Day procession, joined by two gay delegations from the United States.

In a 2010 interview with Mexican newspaper La Jornada, Castro called the persecution of homosexuals while he was in power "a great injustice, great injustice!" Taking responsibility for the persecution, he said, "If anyone is responsible, it's me.... We had so many and such terrible problems, problems of life or death. In those moments, I was not able to deal with that matter [of homosexuals]. I found myself immersed, principally, in the Crisis of October, in the war, in policy questions."

Though there's this too:

According to a Human Rights Watch report, "the government [in 1997] ... heightened harassment of homosexuals, raiding several nightclubs known to have gay clientele and allegedly beating and detaining dozens of patrons."[37] Spanish filmmaker Pedro Almodóvar was reported to be among several hundred people detained in a raid on Havana's most popular gay discothèque, El Periquiton.[38] According to a United States government report, Cuban customers of the club were fined and warned of imprisonment if they did not stop publicly displaying their homosexuality. The foreigners who were detained were released after a check of their documents. Many of the Cuban gay and lesbian clientele were reportedly beaten by police.[39] This crackdown extended to other known gay meeting places throughout the capital, such as Mi Cayito, a beach east of Havana, where gays were arrested, fined, or threatened with imprisonment.[39]

 

[bleedred]

As much as there's plenty of merit in a discussion on his impact, whether he had a positive/negative influence on Cuba and the world etc, the hero worship for him you see in some sectors as this great leader is rather baffling.

An influential man no doubt, but one who oversaw human rights abuses, was inherently anti-democratic, censored the press, and was no stranger to backing plenty of revolutionary groups out there who aligned with his views or interests irrespective of how damaging those people were. Not to mention he was willing to cosy up with a pretty awful Soviet regime who were no strangers to terrible activities themselves.

One man's hero is another man's tyrant. Just because you cannot contemplate why people do it, doesn't necessarily make your position right. (Nor does thier's)

I have discussed this in detail in the previous pages. In a way, his ties with soviet regime were forced out of necessity.

 

[Unmutual]

Depends on who you ask mate, there will be millions of people in the world where the US whether through military or political meddling lives are much worse off. I'm all for human rights and i'm not saying Castro is some sort of saint, but the hypocrisy in this thread ridiculous, a bit of balance in views is required.

So if the the most powerful country on earth was run by a dictator who oppressed all democracy, prevented freedom of speech, brutalised trade unions, controlled the press, killed his opponents extrajudicially, and persecuted gays and others, they'd be no worse for the rest of the planet than the US has been? Incredible.

 

[Cheesy]

One man's hero is another man's tyrant. Just because you cannot contemplate why people do it, doesn't necessarily make your position right. (Nor does thier's)

I have discussed this in detail in the previous pages. In a way, his ties with soviet regime were forced out of necessity.

Perhaps...but in this case referring to him as a tyrant isn't really a matter of perspective, since it's quite literally what he was. Again, I have no problem with recognising his good qualities or even assessing him in comparison with capitalist Western democracies, but the need for someone to portray him as some sort of heroic figure is a bit weird when you consider some of the awful stuff he did, and the fact that many of his values were deeply opposed to basic Western values such as democracy which many of the same people who seem to laud him would dismay if it was taken away from them. Although maybe such people are showing their true colours, and aren't all that interested in democracy after all.

 

[2mufc0]

So if the the most powerful country on earth was run by a dictator who oppressed all democracy, prevented freedom of speech, brutalised trade unions, controlled the press, killed his opponents extrajudicially, and persecuted gays and others, they'd be no worse for the rest of the planet than the US has been? Incredible.

Never said that .

 

[2mufc0]

But where is the hypocrisy in this thread?
Who is it that has been trying to defend wrongs perpetrated by a leader by pointing out good things he has done? Or trying to rationalize the wrongs by pointing the fingers at others? Or excuse away the murder of tens of thousands, while at the same time lecturing others on have moral convictions?

Of course not, but we have people sitting on their high horses claiming to be morally superior. it''s difficult to take people seriously in these situations .

 

[Unmutual]

Never said that .

No, you implied others would.

 

[2mufc0]

So if the the most powerful country on earth was run by a dictator who oppressed all democracy, prevented freedom of speech, brutalised trade unions, controlled the press, killed his opponents extrajudicially, and persecuted gays and others, they'd be no worse for the rest of the planet than the US has been? Incredible.

And the people in guantanamo say hi as well as all the innocents killed in US foreign wars.

 

[2mufc0]

No, you implied others would.

Not at all , all I'm saying let's not be hypocrites .

 

[K2K]

Significant player in ending apartheid in S.A. which was one of the worst human right atrocities of our time.

There are more faces to the man than meets the eye and it would be nice to see them all.

 

[Unmutual]

Not at all , all I'm saying let's not be hypocrites .

Calling a flawed democracy better than a dictatorship is not hypocrisy. If you believe those labels are true, and you're a left winger, it's the only logical position.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

@InfiniteBoredom
What was your experience that you think the 100% literacy may not be true? I was in China for a year and didn't see anyone who couldn't read/write, unlike in India, so I didn't generally doubt Commie achievements in education. Plus Cuba has been more open than the Iron Curtain/China/DPRK so if the reality was very different I'd expect it would have been revealed by now.

Well, my mother worked in travel for quite a long time, and involved in a lot of charities, so we used to go on long trips to far flung places. Vietnam officially boasted something like 98% literacy rate, but it's not uncommon when you go to the mountainous ranges and find generations of people without access to road, electricity or tap water. Oftentimes, 5/6 villages share the same school and kids either have to stay there for the duration of their school year, or got carried past miles of hard terrains to attend it everyday. Most couldn't make it past 3rd grades, many parents didn't let them go.

The country is majority Kinh (the ethnicity), about 70%, and Kinh-speaking ethnics. Literacy among this group is high, but for the ~ 17% of minor ethnics, I'd be astounded to know even half of them can read and write fluently. So in essence, the literacy rate should be closer to 90% than 100%.

Granted, Cuba is tiny, so they might not have the same troubles.

And don't get me started on healthcare.

 

[JustAFan]

Of course not, but we have people sitting on their high horses claiming to be morally superior. it''s difficult to take people seriously in these situations .

Who is doing that?

 

[JustAFan]

A bit of a monastic dynasty in Cuba isn't it? What with Fidel having passed leadership to his brother.

 

[Winrar]

I thought he died years ago for some reason, probably because he hasn't made public appearances recently.

good riddance nonetheless.

 

[jackofalltrades]

I wonder if the president and president elect will send a representative to the funeral.

 

[Eboue]

And btw... Seeing as you're a Barca fan, are you from Spain?

No, he's a self-loathing american ex-pat with a myopic "america is evil" view on literally everything. He's like a black republican soaking up the attention of coffee shop revolutionaries for "telling it like it is".

 

[JustAFan]

I wonder if the president and president elect will send a representative to the funeral.

Usually I think it would just fall for the sitting President to attend or send a representative, might be wrong though

 

[jackofalltrades]

Usually I think it would just fall for the sitting President to attend or send a representative, might be wrong though

The speculation will be interesting,

What about the future ? I think American hostilty was a gift for Castro as it enabled him to rouse patriotic/nationalist feelings in defence of the revolution. A Democrat might have nullified that whereas Trump owes Floridian Cubans a lot for their votes.

 

[Carolina Red]

No, he's a self-loathing american ex-pat with a myopic "america is evil" view on literally everything. He's like a black republican soaking up the attention of coffee shop revolutionaries for "telling it like it is".

Damn lol.. Fair enough!

 

[adexkola]

As an American I find the rhetoric about Castro from senior American officials and statesmen a bit rich, seeing how our application of "democracy" around the world during the cold war went.

Castro wasn't a saint. Merely a product of his time who had the misfortune of standing up to the US, 100 miles from Miami.

 

[Raoul]

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[Ubik]

Keeps outdoing herself

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[Raoul]

Keeps outdoing herself

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The worst bit about her Tweets is I'm forced to read them to myself inside my head with her annoying voice.

Enjoyed watching Medhi wind her up for 10 minutes.

 

[carvajal]

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It has relevance when it has been implemented suffering the longest embargo in history, in an interference with the sovereign decisions of an independent state. I wonder if he says anything about the Torricelli Law,
a double punishment and a warning to third countries: Imperialism or dictatorship.
He is right, a dictator who finished with another one ,who was good friend of American private companies

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

What about the future ? I think American hostilty was a gift for Castro as it enabled him to rouse patriotic/nationalist feelings in defence of the revolution. A Democrat might have nullified that whereas Trump owes Floridian Cubans a lot for their votes.

Hardly. You should read Arthur Schlesinger's thoughts on the issue -- Robert Kennedy wanted to bring "the terrors of the earth" down upon Cuba; whilst JFK wanted to invade before the Russians ever even set foot in Havana.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The C.I.A. findings are important in a biography of Robert Kennedy, because Mr. Schlesinger recognizes that the Attorney General, after the Bay of Pigs, became the principal cheerleader for Operation Mongoose, the campaign of terror and sabotage directed at Castro. Mr. Kennedy's own notes of a White House meeting on Nov. 4, 1961, present his determination: "My idea is to stir things up on island with espionage, sabotage, gender disorder, run & operated by Cubans themselves with every group but Batistaites & Communists. Do not know if we will be successful in overthrowing Castro but we have nothing to lose in my estimate."

Two months later, Mr. Kennedy met with the C.I.A. organizers of Mongoose and told them their work was "top priority," that "no time, money, effort - or manpower - be spared." Chemicals to incapacitate sugar workers were discussed, and the encouragement of "gangster elements" in Cuba. When an opportunity for reassessment arose, Mr. Kennedy wrote: "I am in favor of pushing ahead rather than taking any step back." Mr. Schlesinger concludes that Mr. Kennedy wanted Mongoose to unleash "the terrors of the earth" on Cuba because "Castro was high on his list of emotions." Like others, Mr. Schlesinger can find no direct evidence that Mr. Kennedy knew of the assassination plots against Castro. But the C.I.A. was being urged to acts of secret war that involved killing; it probably felt authorized by what Mr. Schlesinger calls "a driven sense in the administration that someone ought to be doing something to make life difficult for Castro." "Mongoose was poorly conceived and wretchedly executed. It deserved greatly to fail. It was Robert Kennedy's most conspicuous folly."

So yeah, against such hostile aggression over five decades by the world's most powerful nation, existing in a state of war perpetually, I think wartime conditions being present in society isn't surprising. It happens in western nations and their base is much higher to begin with.

 

[Raoul]

It has relevance when it has been implemented suffering the longest embargo in history, in an interference with the sovereign decisions of an independent state. I wonder if he says anything about the Torricelli Law,
a double punishment and a warning to third countries: Imperialism or dictatorship.
He is right, a dictator who finished with another one ,who was good friend of American private companies

I suppose he is asking whether it was absolutely necessary to be a repressive dictatorship to provide social services and health care to this citizens, even if Cuba was under sanctions.

 

[carvajal]

I suppose he is asking whether it was absolutely necessary to be a repressive dictatorship to provide social services and health care to this citizens, even if Cuba was under sanctions.

Yes, I guess so, now that Fidel has died that achievement will be repeated constantly, although his commentary obviates the difficulties in the process.

 

[berbatrick]

This is something i knew very vaguely, but the praise from Mandela here is immense

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[Nobby style]

No, he's a self-loathing american ex-pat with a myopic "america is evil" view on literally everything. He's like a black republican soaking up the attention of coffee shop revolutionaries for "telling it like it is".

Boom goes the dynamite!!

 

[ghagua]

They probably didn't poll firing squad victims, political prisoners, people that had their property nationalized by the government, or expats who can actually speak their mind without fear of retribution.

So you condone firing squads and political prisoners then ? You're quite the spokesman for socialism.

For a moment I thought you were talking about the CIA and Saddam Hussein and many other dictators, but then I looked at the thread title again.

 

[K2K]

This is something i knew very vaguely, but the praise from Mandela here is immense

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Like I said . There was more than one face to him.

As much as we should talk about the bad,it would be fair if we also talk about the good.

That is what some of us merely want. To get the full picture.

 

[bleedred]

Who is doing that?

Not people in here, maybe... But politicians do...which is what I personally believe is hypocritical.

Here is an example of Obama and Frankie saying like it is!

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[crappycraperson]

A bit of a monastic dynasty in Cuba isn't it? What with Fidel having passed leadership to his brother.

This is what his 'comrades' turn a blind eye to. He installed himself as a dictator for more than 40 years and then passed on the power in family like a regular monarch. Even for argument's sake we accept that all of his policies were just and fruitful for the people of Cuba, are folks happy to forgo democracy for a benevolent dictator?

 

[Moby]

are folks happy to forgo democracy for a benevolent dictator?

Perhaps they are, that's not always a bad thing.

http://econintersect.com/b2evolution/blog2.php/2012/01/06/towards-an-ideal-form-of-government