Fidel Castro dies aged 90

[2cents]

Didn't Mossadegh start off as an anti-communist liberal?

He was never particularly fond of communism, even in his final years in office. It was just that he deemed the Soviet Union an important ally.

Yeah he was basically a nationalist riding a populist wave, as far as I recall he never liked the Tudeh (communist) Party, but the Brits and Americans were never sure if he'd ally with them or be overthrown by them, so they pre-emptied both eventualities by removing him altogether - oil aside, they were never going to risk a Soviet base on the Persian Gulf, a long-standing policy going back to the Great Game of the 1800s.

Similar to Nasser in Egypt, Mossadegh leaned towards the Soviets not out of any ideological conviction but because a new generation of educated and professional Iranians were tired of having their affairs dictated by a Western imperial power (while the Ulama opposed Mossadegh because he threatened their traditional hold on the urban/bazaari classes).

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Healthcare, literacy, relative economic success. Can't fault it. All the while under embargo and assault from the leader of the free world. You have to laugh.

 

[Lentwood]

I think some posters misunderstand the significance of what Castro achieved and the differences in economic development and culture between any society they have ever been familiar with and Central/South American countries

Central & South American countries have been raped and pillaged by the US (and others) for centuries, so the fact that the likes of Castro & Chavez have had the guts to stand up to them and make decisions in the interests of THEIR nation and THEIR people has to be commended in my opinion even if you don't agree with every action

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Healthcare, literacy, relative economic success. Can't fault it. All the while under embargo and assault from the leader of the free world. You have to laugh.

I have a very hard time believing in any sort of figures regarding their universal healthcare and literacy rate, coming from a communist state myself. As for economic success, the famine that immediately followed the disintegration of the USSR tells a different story.

As a pure revolutionary, he's probably only behind Che out of the whole 20th century lot, but as a ruler, I don't think there's much credit to give him or his party, embargo taken into consideration.

 

[Ubik]

I think some posters misunderstand the significance of what Castro achieved and the differences in economic development and culture between any society they have ever been familiar with and Central/South American countries

Central & South American countries have been raped and pillaged by the US (and others) for centuries, so the fact that the likes of Castro & Chavez have had the guts to stand up to them and make decisions in the interests of THEIR nation and THEIR people has to be commended in my opinion even if you don't agree with every action

I mean, slippery slopes...

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I have a very hard time believing in any sort of figures regarding their universal healthcare and literacy rate, coming from a communist state myself. As for economic success, the famine that immediately followed the disintegration of the USSR tells a different story.

As a pure revolutionary, he's probably only behind Che out of the whole 20th century lot, but as a ruler, I don't think there's much credit to give him or his party, embargo taken into consideration.

The figures are compiled by Western nations -- such communist forces as the CIA. By lots of social metrics, Cuba has been ahead of the US for decades.

I think he's ahead of Che, but I'm not really interested in that whole revolutionary thing. You also can't discount the embargo as it's difficult to imagine running a state in the obstructionist shadow of the world's most powerful country. Over 600 assassination attempts on its leader -- that's a state of war. I can't take any debates of civil liberties seriously when people ignore the context. The UK and US suspended large parts of their democracy during wartime -- UK suspending elections, US creating concentration camps for citizens. Then there's also Guantanamo. Difficult to lecture Cuba on liberty with that torture chamber on the island.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

I mean, slippery slopes...

Make Cuba/Venezuela Great Again!

 

[Sweet Square]

I have a very hard time believing in any sort of figures regarding their universal healthcare and literacy rate, coming from a communist state myself. As for economic success, the famine that immediately followed the disintegration of the USSR tells a different story.

As a pure revolutionary, he's probably only behind Che out of the whole 20th century lot, but as a ruler, I don't think there's much credit to give him or his party, embargo taken into consideration.

Now that Castro's gone, that might be a thread worth starting - revolutionary top trumps.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

I think some posters misunderstand the significance of what Castro achieved and the differences in economic development and culture between any society they have ever been familiar with and Central/South American countries

Central & South American countries have been raped and pillaged by the US (and others) for centuries, so the fact that the likes of Castro & Chavez have had the guts to stand up to them and make decisions in the interests of THEIR nation and THEIR people has to be commended in my opinion even if you don't agree with every action

A lot of this is true of course, but doesn't in my mind justify slaughter and totalitarian rule. Just because the previous regime were appalling does not justify the actions of Castro's movement and acknowledging the good he did cannot be done without acknowledging the bad. Chavez and Allende are different.

 

[Lentwood]

I mean, slippery slopes...

So what's your opinion on Mandela then?

It depends where you stand on the ends justifying the means and Kantism vs Utilitarianism

However, rather than get into an unwinnable philosophical debate, my point is simply that most people make the mistake of discussing leaders like Castro as if he where an elected Western hemisphere leader of a first-world economy

 

[Ubik]

So what's your opinion on Mandela then?

It depends where you stand on the ends justifying the means and Kantism vs Utilitarianism

However, rather than get into an unwinnable philosophical debate, my point is simply that most people make the mistake of discussing leaders like Castro as if he where an elected Western hemisphere leader of a first-world economy

Mandela? What misdeeds did he do in power that could be compared to Castro and Chavez?

 

[Carolina Red]

There are multiple versions of that story with some stating he objected initially..
Edit: will post sources. read it long back...will try to find it.

True, which is why I edited. I remembered there are conflicting reports over who made the first move toward deployment.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

The figures are compiled by Western nations -- such communist forces as the CIA. By lots of social metrics, Cuba has been ahead of the US for decades.

I think he's ahead of Che, but I'm not really interested in that whole revolutionary thing. You also can't discount the embargo as it's difficult to imagine running a state in the obstructionist shadow of the world's most powerful country

It's hard for them to conduct conducive researches though, isn't it? Perhaps my cynicism overcomes my judgment, but having lived most of my formative years in one such regime, I suspect the real figures are much less impressive. Probably still better than the utter trainwreck that is the US healthcare and education system, granted.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

A lot of this is true of course, but doesn't in my mind justify slaughter and totalitarian rule. Just because the previous regime were appalling does not justify the actions of Castro's movement and acknowledging the good he did cannot be done without acknowledging the bad. Chavez and Allende are different.

The US and many other western nations have, in living memory, established forms of totalitarian rule during wartime. Cuba can't be excused for doing the same -- with the difference being that Cuba faced destruction for decades, not for a couple of years. It also started form a far lower base.

It boggles the mind that people ignore all of this.

 

[Carolina Red]

The nukes were just a perfect excuse. The reason was a communist country in your backyard, and the fear of it spreading to your colonies.

The embargo has remained despite us trading with other "communist" countries for years. We fought a war against China in Korea and a war against Vietnam and we've got trade relations with them. Not with Cuba... Again, I think Castro having a hand in almost pushing us to nuclear war has had something to do with that.

 

[Nighteyes]

What next? Defending Saddam and Hitler?

 

[Omar Little]

RIP. Great man.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

It's hard for them to conduct conducive researches though, isn't it? Perhaps my cynicism overcomes my judgment, but having lived most of my formative years in one such regime, I suspect the real figures are much less impressive. Probably still better than the utter trainwreck that is the US healthcare and education system, granted.

It isn't as difficult as you'd expect. Whilst the US had the embargo, plenty of Western states didn't. Many politicians from the UK have been visiting Cuba for decades. It's not difficult to roughly ascertain the lay of the land. And, if it were in a basket case state, why would Western nations make it appear better than it is? They'd have more to gain by revising down as far as possible.

All countries fudge their numbers, but healthcare and literacy are easy enough to gauge. You don't even need to operate all that covertly to do it.

 

[Raoul]

Gorby is the only one from the Naked Gun intro still alive.

 

[RedTiger]

What next? Defending Saddam and Hitler?

In what way is Castro comparable to an expansionist Arab or a genocidal maniac?

 

[Fingeredmouse]

The US and many other western nations have, in living memory, established forms of totalitarian rule during wartime. Cuba can't be excused for doing the same -- with the difference being that Cuba faced destruction for decades, not for a couple of years. It also started form a far lower base.

It boggles the mind that people ignore all of this.

Of course they have, but that doesn't make Castro's actions ok either. I am not defending the actions of the West at all and, politically, I find much to agree with Castro on. I just can't condone totalitarianism nor state sponsored slaughter, no matter who is responsible. I guess I don't feel the ends ever justify the means when it involves murder.

I understand, from their perspective, it was literally war but that doesn't allow me to accept it. The fact that the US intervened in Latin America when the left were in control (even if democratically elected like Allende) to further their own aims doesn't excuse slaughter.

 

[senorgregster]

In what way is Castro comparable to an expansionist Arab or a genocidal maniac?

Didn't he kill upwards of 100,000?

 

[bleedred]

True, which is why I edited. I remembered there are conflicting reports over who made the first move toward deployment.

check my edited post...three different versions...

 

[Nighteyes]

In what way is Castro comparable to an expansionist Arab or a genocidal maniac?

All of them were mass murdering cnuts who did some good in their respective countries. People defending the guy are idiots.

 

[Carolina Red]

Healthcare, literacy, relative economic success. Can't fault it. All the while under embargo and assault from the leader of the free world. You have to laugh.

Yeah, but you can't there... No freedom of speech, the press, of assembly, of religion, etc.

Sorry, just trying to balance out the visions of paradise

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

I'd say the US made the first move toward deployment -- storing nukes in Turkey.

Of course they have, but that doesn't make Castro's actions ok either. I am not defending the actions of the West at all and, politically, I find much to agree with Castro on. I just can't condone totalitarianism nor state sponsored slaughter, no matter who is responsible. I guess I don't feel the ends ever justify the means when it involves murder.

I understand, from their perspective, it was literally war but that doesn't allow me to accept it. The fact that the US intervened in Latin America when the left were in control (even if democratically elected like Allende) to further their own aims doesn't excuse slaughter.

Yeah, I don't condone state sponsored slaughter either, and of course it's deplorable, but if we're going to judge a country we have to have standards to judge them against. Most often, that standard is the US because it is the world's hegemonic power and leader of the free world. If we're comparing Cuba and the US, then the US is far worse even in the slaughter stakes.

Yeah, but you can't there... No freedom of speech, the press, of assembly, of religion, etc.

Sorry, just trying to balance out the visions of paradise

All of those are things you'd suppose the US doesn't care too much about, going by their record of overthrowing democratically elected leaders throughout Central and South America. Where were those rights for Japanese Americans during World War Two? In the concentration camps built by the democratic United States to hold them. The US hadn't been under siege for five decades, either. So it is very difficult to listen to American moralizing regarding Cuba, when it is a country that has never adhered to any these of morals itself.

No, Cuba isn't a paradise, but there aren't any paradises. It is far better than most countries in a similar position, though.

 

[Will Absolute]

Healthcare, literacy, relative economic success. Can't fault it. All the while under embargo and assault from the leader of the free world. You have to laugh.

The health and education systems were paid for by the Soviet Union who subsidized the Cuban economy for decades. The crack-brained policies of Fidel and Che wrecked the economy immediately on taking power, and led to half a century of zero or negative growth.

They did export a lot of sugar to the Soviets at well above world market price though. It was all they had to sell.

 

[Chorley1974]

FFS, a dictator who killed many thousands being lauded as a hero, great, yeah right on brother.

 

[surf]

Gotta admire the initial revolution but as a ruler he became a failure whose ideas were stuck in the past. He stayed in power far too long for the country's good. Now it gets interesting because Cuba has a lot more potential than most of the Caribbean and Central American basket cases.

 

[Revan]

He was far better for Cuba than the American backed dictator.

Was he? I am not expert in Cuba, but I think that the absolute majority of Cubans are very poor, the only cars they have are from fifties, the drinkable water is a sparse resource, and in general the life there is a bit shit.

That is without counting tens of thousands of people the regime killed, tortured etc, hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Cubans that had to leave for US, and tens of thousands of soldiers which were killed in wars that had nothing to do with Cuba. And of course, being a fully totalitarian state, banning things from internet to professional boxing.

So yeah, the world is a better place without him. Despite that he might have been funny once when he called the Republican debate as the greatest competition of idiocy ever.

 

[Raoul]

FFS, a dictator who killed many thousands being lauded as a hero, great, yeah right on brother.

What about all the free dental care he provided ?

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

The health and education systems were paid for by the Soviet Union who subsidized the Cuban economy for decades. The crack-brained policies of Fidel and Che wrecked the economy immediately on taking power, and led to half a century of zero or negative growth.

They did export a lot of sugar to the Soviets at well above world market price though. It was all they had to sell.

Were Cubans better before or after Castro, is the question. In terms of the economy, literacy, and healthcare, the answer is after.

FFS, a dictator who killed many thousands being lauded as a hero, great, yeah right on brother.

Is there any world leader -- past or present -- that you would laud? Because most of them have killed many, many people.

Was he? I am not expert in Cuba, but I think that the absolute majority of Cubans are very poor, the only cars they have are from fifties, the drinkable water is a sparse resource, and in general the life there is a bit shit.

It isn't a paradise, and I never said it was, but yes, it is better now than it was then. Take a look at the historical per capita GDP figures.

 

[Canuckred64]

Good riddence. Tyrant, murderous oppressor who depraved his people of freedom, individual liberty and doomed them to a life of poverty.

 

[Chorley1974]

Were Cubans better before or after Castro, is the question. In terms of the economy, literacy, and healthcare, the answer is after.


Is there any world leader -- past or present -- that you would laud? Because most of them have killed many, many people.


It isn't a paradise, and I never said it was, but yes, it is better now than it was then. Take a look at the historical per capita GDP figures.

Locking of thousands of homosexuals to 're educate them' great success as the GDP figures got a bit better. Right on brother.

 

[2cents]

ICuba isn't a paradise, but there aren't any paradises. It is far better than most countries in a similar position, though.

I know very little about Cuba or Latin America in general, but the example I always see thrown about in response to this is Costa Rica which, apparently, has many of the same social safeguards as Cuba and matches it closely in standards all the while maintaining an open political system and friendly relations with the US (no army either).

 

[Chorley1974]

What about all the free dental care he provided ?

Yeah forgot about that, funded by Russia, even more of an achievement, didn't even need to fund it himself.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

Locking of thousands of homosexuals to 're educate them' great success as the GDP figures got a bit better. Right on brother.

OK, but which world leaders are worthy of being lauded?

Castro did plenty of deplorable things, but Cuba was better for having had its revolution overall.

I know very little about Cuba or Latin America in general, but the example I always see thrown about in response to this is Costa Rica which, apparently, has many of the same social safeguards as Cuba and matches it closely in standards all the while maintaining an open political system and friendly relations with the US (no army either).

Cuba's per capita figures are high than Costa Rica's, but Costa Rica is definitely an admirable state. They haven't been subject to an international economic blockade, though.

 

[Chorley1974]

OK, but which world leaders are worthy of being lauded?

Castro did plenty of deplorable things, but Cuba was better for having had its revolution overall.


Cuba's per capita figures are high than Costa Rica's, but Costa Rica is definitely an admirable state. They haven't been subject to an international economic blockade, though.

None, but that isn't the point is it? Lauding a homophobic murderer as some sort of hero I don't agree with.

 

[Mciahel Goodman]

None, but that isn't the point is it? Lauding a homophobic murderer as some sort of hero I don't agree with.

I'd agree, none.

And I'm not lauding the man, I'm just making a point with regard to context. If Castro was bad, then we have had some incredible tyrants in the western world. Yet, most of those leaders won't attract a tenth of the criticism you see people attaching to Castro. At the very least we should be consistent in our moral outrage. That's the only point I'm making.

 

[Adisa]

I think some posters misunderstand the significance of what Castro achieved and the differences in economic development and culture between any society they have ever been familiar with and Central/South American countries

Central & South American countries have been raped and pillaged by the US (and others) for centuries, so the fact that the likes of Castro & Chavez have had the guts to stand up to them and make decisions in the interests of THEIR nation and THEIR people has to be commended in my opinion even if you don't agree with every action

Working very well for Venezuela.