Flybe going into adminstration

[madzo2007]

Seems like the game is up for Flybe, planes being impounded and being ordered to turnaround when about to take off

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[adexkola]

FFS

What's up with airlines going bankrupt recently

Germania comes to mind

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Aviation is a brutal business. They don't really make money.

 

[hp88]

I would have been flying back from Germany with them on Friday if it weren't for the travel ban.

Flown with them a few times over the past year, they really were a no frills service airline, even their hand luggage limit was ridiculously small.

 

[11101]

About time, to be honest. They've been on the brink for years.

Hopefully all their crew can find other jobs fairly quickly.

 

[senorgregster]

Aviation is a brutal business. They don't really make money.

They get such a bad rap too. Up there with telephone/cable companies with negative press always trying to nickle and dime us. But its pretty clear they aren't doing well.

 

[adexkola]

Aviation is a brutal business. They don't really make money.

I think it's always been the case since deregulation in the U.S. at least. Maybe i'm more aware of it now but it seems to be more prevalent now.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

They get such a bad rap too. Up there with telephone/cable companies with negative press always trying to nickle and dime us. But its pretty clear they aren't doing well.

I wonder if it's related to flag carriers and people thinking if it's government operated they should bend over backwards for you?

I think it's always been the case since deregulation in the U.S. at least. Maybe i'm more aware of it now but it seems to be more prevalent now.

I think it's always been, yeah.

 

[senorgregster]

I wonder if it's related to flag carriers and people thinking if it's government operated they should bend over backwards for you?



I think it's always been, yeah.

We have a friend who is a pilot. Tough career to get into right now. Shared housing ready to fly as needed just to get a chance.

 

[Ian Reus]

We have a friend who is a pilot. Tough career to get into right now. Shared housing ready to fly as needed just to get a chance.

I would imagine there are more pilots than planes so only the best get in.

However...

 

[Stanley Road]

Aviation is a brutal business. They don't really make money.

I know someone that worked for easyjet, they make all their money in 3 summer months and run at a loss for the rest of the year.

 

[sun_tzu]

I would imagine there are more pilots than planes so only the best get in.

I can only imagine less pilots moving forward as well... I mean how long till pilots essentially sit in a call centre taking off and landing drones whilst the auto pilot deals with the bulk of the flight

 

[Skills]

The rise in oil prices, tighter environmental regulations (thus taxes) have squeezed the margins for the airlines industry.

 

[11101]

I would imagine there are more pilots than planes so only the best get in.

However...

On the contrary pilots are in short supply the world over, figures predict needing half a million more pilots over the next 10-15 years. However it depends largely on the aircraft you fly and where you are. Plenty of demand for A320 pilots in Asia, less so for 747 pilots in Europe. Flybe mostly operated pretty niche Q400s so it's not likely there will be lots of airlines queuing up for their pilots.

 

[senorgregster]

I would imagine there are more pilots than planes so only the best get in.

However...

It's been a few years since we talked about it but back then it was all about who had the highest number of flights and then being in the right place when a flight opened up. Honestly it sounded awful. This was in the US. No idea about anywhere else.

 

[baskinginthesun]

We have a friend who is a pilot. Tough career to get into right now. Shared housing ready to fly as needed just to get a chance.

It's called a crash pad. They are sitting reserve. Normal procedure for any airline, worldwide.

It's actually one of the best times the industry has seen to become a pilot as they are in short supply. There are many opportunities nowadays to become one.

 

[senorgregster]

It's called a crash pad. They are sitting reserve. Normal procedure for any airline, worldwide.

It's actually one of the best times the industry has seen to become a pilot as they are in short supply. There are many opportunities nowadays to become one.

That sounds promising. I'll have to check in with him and find out if it improved.

Edit: Sounds like Uni!
https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/pilot-recalls-crash-pad-life/#.XmFQeKhKiUk

 

[Stanley Road]

There is a pilot on the caf, ask him.

 

[mariachi-19]

On the contrary pilots are in short supply the world over, figures predict needing half a million more pilots over the next 10-15 years. However it depends largely on the aircraft you fly and where you are. Plenty of demand for A320 pilots in Asia, less so for 747 pilots in Europe. Flybe mostly operated pretty niche Q400s so it's not likely there will be lots of airlines queuing up for their pilots.

All Qantas 747's are retired or very close to retirement and most large Airlines are also heading that way.

Soon they'll be flown only by budget airlines or not at all.

 

[stepic]

I guess the budget airlines really get fecked over by the compensation payouts too if there’s any delay in service. It’s kinda mental in a way that you can get €250 compensation for a flight that may have cost you like €50.

 

[baskinginthesun]

All Qantas 747's are retired or very close to retirement and most large Airlines are also heading that way.

Soon they'll be flown only by budget airlines or not at all.

What do you mean? The 747's that are being retired are also replaced by more fuel efficient aircraft like the 787 or A350.

 

[acnumber9]

I guess the budget airlines really get fecked over by the compensation payouts too if there’s any delay in service. It’s kinda mental in a way that you can get €250 compensation for a flight that may have cost you like €50.

The flight itself may only cost you €50 but there an ongoing impact too. Hotel costs, missed work etc.

 

[pauldyson1uk]

All Qantas 747's are retired or very close to retirement and most large Airlines are also heading that way.

Soon they'll be flown only by budget airlines or not at all.

There is no budget airline that fly's the 747 and I doubt they ever will do.
QANTAS have replaced their 747's with more fuel efficient 787's and the can fly Perth to London Heathrow non-stop.

 

[Stanley Road]

There is no budget airline that fly's the 747 and I doubt they ever will do.
QANTAS have replaced their 747's with more fuel efficient 787's and the can fly Perth to London Heathrow non-stop.

Laker Airways was one

 

[Full bodied red]

Laker Airways was one

Freddie Laker's wide bodies were DC10s.

But there was one of the original low fare airlines, based in the US and called Tower AIr which had a few 747s.

From the bar room tales and stories about their business ops and ethics, even Ryanair seems to treat its customer and staff like a 27-Star hotel.

 

[Buster15]

What do you mean? The 747's that are being retired are also replaced by more fuel efficient aircraft like the 787 or A350.

Spot on.
These two new aircraft are significantly more fuel efficient than those of just a decade ago.
And the good news is that Rolls Royce is the exclusive engine supplier to the A350 and has a reasonable share of the 787.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The airline industry as a whole needs a refresh and ripe for the kind of disruption Uber and Lyft brought to the taxi cab industry. Its unfathomable how given the number of people flying every day they can't seem to make ends meet and make flying such a horrible experience for everyone involved.

 

[Full bodied red]

The airline industry as a whole needs a refresh and ripe for the kind of disruption Uber and Lyft brought to the taxi cab industry. Its unfathomable how given the number of people flying every day they can't seem to make ends meet and make flying such a horrible experience for everyone involved.

The whole industry operates on tiny, tiny percentage margins of huge costs, unfortunately.

I'm not too sure how many other industries have a cost occurance as high and as frquent as airlines. Imagine with 10 arcraft and having 9 of those 10 flying Europe > USA everyday at Direct Cost of about £ 125,000 each sector for just the crew, fuel, ATC charges and airport charges. Add to that the actual cost of the aircraft which might typically be upwards of $15,000 per day for lease and maintance, and then ground services like check in, baggage handling, etc, and pretty soon you're at a lot of £ millions per day for just 10 aircraft.

One or two empty seats on a flight with even 300 available seats can be the difference between a profit and a loss when you factor in the overheads of running the airline and then those of running the business - which are two completely different things. Airlines are probably one of the most if not the most highly regulated products and services around ( or maybe second to medical drugs and products ) although for good reason, of course, and these costs are huge also.

But back to Flybe....I don't know much about them other than it needs a very special type of Management Team ( although this current lot are about the fourth in the past ten years ) to run up the losses which they have consistantly managed to do for the past ten years or so when they had a monopoly on about 70% of their network. They seem to have forgotten the old airline saying that ' Sometimes the bottom line gets bigger if you make the top line smaller '

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

The whole industry operates on tiny, tiny percentage margins of huge costs, unfortunately.

I'm not too sure how many other industries have a cost occurance as high and as frquent as airlines. Imagine with 10 arcraft and having 9 of those 10 flying Europe > USA everyday at Direct Cost of about £ 125,000 each sector for just the crew, fuel, ATC charges and airport charges. Add to that the actual cost of the aircraft which might typically be upwards of $15,000 per day for lease and maintance, and then ground services like check in, baggage handling, etc, and pretty soon you're at a lot of £ millions per day for just 10 aircraft.

One or two empty seats on a flight with even 300 available seats can be the difference between a profit and a loss when you factor in the overheads of running the airline and then those of running the business - which are two completely different things. Airlines are probably one of the most if not the most highly regulated products and services around ( or maybe second to medical drugs and products ) although for good reason, of course, and these costs are huge also.

But back to Flybe....I don't know much about them other than it needs a very special type of Management Team ( although this current lot are about the fourth in the past ten years ) to run up the losses which they have consistantly managed to do for the past ten years or so when they had a monopoly on about 70% of their network. They seem to have forgotten the old airline saying that ' Sometimes the bottom line gets bigger if you make the top line smaller '

That's the thing though, it has to be better than this as air travel is pretty much a necessity in the modern world. There are business travelers who fly year round, airlines have their own constant peak seasons like thanksgiving, holiday season, summer vacations, winter ski trips etc such that they have business all year round. The margins should not be that slim and they certainly should be able to weather a disruption for a month caused by a flu virus without going belly up.

 

[senorgregster]

The whole industry operates on tiny, tiny percentage margins of huge costs, unfortunately.

I'm not too sure how many other industries have a cost occurance as high and as frquent as airlines. Imagine with 10 arcraft and having 9 of those 10 flying Europe > USA everyday at Direct Cost of about £ 125,000 each sector for just the crew, fuel, ATC charges and airport charges. Add to that the actual cost of the aircraft which might typically be upwards of $15,000 per day for lease and maintance, and then ground services like check in, baggage handling, etc, and pretty soon you're at a lot of £ millions per day for just 10 aircraft.

One or two empty seats on a flight with even 300 available seats can be the difference between a profit and a loss when you factor in the overheads of running the airline and then those of running the business - which are two completely different things. Airlines are probably one of the most if not the most highly regulated products and services around ( or maybe second to medical drugs and products ) although for good reason, of course, and these costs are huge also.

But back to Flybe....I don't know much about them other than it needs a very special type of Management Team ( although this current lot are about the fourth in the past ten years ) to run up the losses which they have consistantly managed to do for the past ten years or so when they had a monopoly on about 70% of their network. They seem to have forgotten the old airline saying that ' Sometimes the bottom line gets bigger if you make the top line smaller '

This is what I don't understand. People constantly moaning about being charged for everything all the while the industry is barely hanging on. I have no problem being charged for extra things that cost an airline money. It's the way it should be.

 

[baskinginthesun]

That's the thing though, it has to be better than this as air travel is pretty much a necessity in the modern world. There are business travelers who fly year round, airlines have their own constant peak seasons like thanksgiving, holiday season, summer vacations, winter ski trips etc such that they have business all year round. The margins should not be that slim and they certainly should be able to weather a disruption for a month caused by a flu virus without going belly up.

Well, when you have a government or business telling you to stop all travel and your main source of business requires people to travel you're going to feel the effects quite quickly. Also, a lot of the airlines have been purchasing new aircraft to replace their older fleets and you need quite a bit of cash to do that. A new jet these days especially heavy like the A350 or B787 costs upwards of $150mil. So when you're trying to buy 5-10 at a time you need a fair amount of cash on had to do that. Another reason why margins are thin.

Also, FlyBe has had this coming for awhile and had little to do with the coronavirus.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51758115

Well, when you have a government or business telling you to stop all travel and your main source of business requires people to travel you're going to feel the effects quite quickly. Also, a lot of the airlines have been purchasing new aircraft to replace their older fleets and you need quite a bit of cash to do that. A new jet these days especially heavy like the A350 or B787 costs upwards of $150mil. So when you're trying to buy 5-10 at a time you need a fair amount of cash on had to do that. Another reason why margins are thin.

Also, FlyBe has had this coming for awhile and had little to do with the coronavirus.

I wouldn’t say little. It was the final straw

 

[Buster15]

Well, when you have a government or business telling you to stop all travel and your main source of business requires people to travel you're going to feel the effects quite quickly. Also, a lot of the airlines have been purchasing new aircraft to replace their older fleets and you need quite a bit of cash to do that. A new jet these days especially heavy like the A350 or B787 costs upwards of $150mil. So when you're trying to buy 5-10 at a time you need a fair amount of cash on had to do that. Another reason why margins are thin.

Also, FlyBe has had this coming for awhile and had little to do with the coronavirus.

Very few airlines actually buy the aircraft outright.

Many either lease them or pay a rate per flying hour.

Also. What did you mean by 'heavy' like the A350....

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Laker Airways was one

they did not have 747's , they had DC10's , A300's , the original low cost airline,

 

[pauldyson1uk]

Freddie Laker's wide bodies were DC10s.

But there was one of the original low fare airlines, based in the US and called Tower AIr which had a few 747s.

From the bar room tales and stories about their business ops and ethics, even Ryanair seems to treat its customer and staff like a 27-Star hotel.

You are right about Tower Air, but I would not say they were a low cost airline, in the way Low cost is today.
It mainly survived on US government military charter flights, It eventually became the only US carrier providing scheduled service to Israel in 1991, using special war risk insurance provided by the Federal Aviation Administration , went bump in 2000

 

[Stanley Road]

they did not have 747's , they had DC10's , A300's , the original low cost airline,

Correct, i was wrong

 

[Balljy]

That's the thing though, it has to be better than this as air travel is pretty much a necessity in the modern world. There are business travelers who fly year round, airlines have their own constant peak seasons like thanksgiving, holiday season, summer vacations, winter ski trips etc such that they have business all year round. The margins should not be that slim and they certainly should be able to weather a disruption for a month caused by a flu virus without going belly up.

I'm not sure what you mean by that as they are notoriously slim with most airlines losing money for most of the year. The only way for the margins to be less slim with the current taxes and charges paid by the airlines would be to raise the prices surely?

It's common knowledge that the average airline makes a loss on most economy class tickets with business & first class making up for the loss.

 

[baskinginthesun]

Very few airlines actually buy the aircraft outright.

Many either lease them or pay a rate per flying hour.

Also. What did you mean by 'heavy' like the A350....

True, there are other ways to operate and have aircraft but, it's still not cheap.

Heavy is industry terminology on how much separation is required between aircraft to avoid whats called wake turbulence. The larger an aircraft the more separation is required. A "heavy" aircraft are some of the largest flying out there. A super heavy classification goes to the A380

 

[Buster15]

True, there are other ways to operate and have aircraft but, it's still not cheap.

Heavy is industry terminology on how much separation is required between aircraft to avoid whats called wake turbulence. The larger an aircraft the more separation is required. A "heavy" aircraft are some of the largest flying out there. A super heavy classification goes to the A380

Very much appreciated.

 

[0le]

Heavy is industry terminology on how much separation is required between aircraft to avoid whats called wake turbulence. The larger an aircraft the more separation is required. A "heavy" aircraft are some of the largest flying out there. A super heavy classification goes to the A380

The spread of the wake from the aircraft depends on specifically the extent of the cross-sectional profile (form drag) and the Reynolds number of the upstream flow. Another part includes the aerodynamic profile (skin friction drag/ pressure drag). Another issue is whether the upstream flow is stable (quiescient) or has instabilities, which can also influence the downstream flow properties (wake). I think this is why you mention there is a separation between the aircraft - to reduce the instabilities in the upstream flow which travels over the wing and maximize the generation of the lift and reduce drag. There should be more care when talking about weight of the aircraft because as far as I know, this would not have a major influence on the actual wake, if any, but I guess the implication is that larger aircraft (which probably though not necessarily, weigh more) will likely have a larger cross-sectional profile. Apart from the aircraft itself, without any energy to sustain the motion, the turbulence will decay - but there will always be some energy due to pressure, density and temperature variations, particularly in and around clouds.

Interestingly, wind farms are designed in a similar way, but this time the wake is from the turbine. Many farms have a staggered layout, where the turbines in row 2 are offset from the turbines in row 1, so that the turbines in row 2 are not in the central potion of any wakes formed upstream.