how does that work? We used to have the ball more but Fred has the ball more than our midfielders did then?
I loved me some Ando. Class player to watch on the rare occasions he was fit. Waiting for the peak that never came.
17
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I loved me some Ando. Class player to watch on the rare occasions he was fit. Waiting for the peak that never came.
To think his passing through the lines is excellent is simply laughable
I don't deny fred has his uses but he also has quite significant limitations. I suspect you and some others are completely over egging his ability as a reaction to some people saying he is completely useless, whereas the reality is obviously somewhere in between
Comparing his passing ratio to cleverly who was run out of the club for playing safe passes and constantly hiding. I would hope if Fred was playing the same low risk game week after week while we fail to create anything fans would rightly call him out but that’s why people aren’t just accepting it. Fred forces the play and the tempo and it doesn’t always work and he gets slated for it. Fair enough, but the last thing he ever does is hides
He's in the team to tackle, intercept and overturn possession. And he's waaaayyy ahead of the others in that department. Very odd you throw them together but make a special effort to put assist and goals in there, as if a grand total of 2 assists or goal is somehow a deciding factor. Creating opportunities hasn't been an issue for this team, so for him to create the same chances as the others, while also doing markedly more off the ball, is pretty significant.
Fred is as creative as Tom Cleverley was for us in his best season in terms of key passes. Gets on the ball more than Cleverley or Anderson, plays less through balls than Anderson but plays more long balls. Cleverley was a more accurate passer and his equal key passes came with almost 10 less passes per game on average.
Fred is obviously better defensively than either Cleverley or Anderson at United. Thats not saying much, they werent good at all. But clearly Fred tops them here
Fred plays as many key passes as Cleverley and dribbles more than Anderson. But scores and assists less than both of them and gives the ball away more than Cleverley, less than Anderson
Fred gets the most bookings, wins the ball least in the air
Other than Fred making more tackles and having less assists and goals there isnt that much between them
If I said, 'other than Ruud scoring more goals and winning less of the ball in the air, being slower and weaker, there isn't that much between him and Heskey,' you'd call me nuts for putting those players the same ball park, and rightly so.
I’m taking a break from this thread until after the match and we can all chat about how he’s absolutely the main reason we only scraped past West Brom and how a top team has box to box players that are constantly creative. Nothing to do with the fact our forwards look like a bunch of strangers having a kick about most weeks.
Yeah, comparing Fred to Cleverley just doesn't make any sense on any level.
No, I've said in this thread that his passing is erratic and his passing over the top of the defense is poor. His balls between the lines however are very effective and generally of high quality. I would say it's his strongest attribute on the ball.
someone else will come on then saying his passing between the lines is horrible and behind the player and the stats just distort what everyone can see and he’s holding us back. It’s our forwards lack of chemistry, goalkeeping mistakes and absolutely meek defending that’s been our undoing this season. That could all be fixed if we just moved the ball around the middle a bit more stylishly it seems.... only it doesn’t work when Pogba plays instead of Fred
i would like to see DVB sit in the pivot besides matic or Mct instead of Fred to see how he does. Fred is kind of all over the place at times, especially when Pogba went out against Everton. Think DVB could keep things calm and get the ball to the playmakers.
So if you removed 4 things instead of 1 which is pretty equal - tackling for goals, sure.
But nobody did that because it would be stupid to even suggest it. Fred is a bit more defensive than Cleverley and Anderson, just as those stats pointed out and that I commented on where they do. They are more offensive and had more end product. Other than that not much difference.
If you compared McTominay to Cleverley and Anderson he'd score more goals as well as doing more defensively. So would a lot of DMs. Thats the point.
In the premier league alone :
All the players who have played DM and scored more than 1 goal from the position. So if we include all of the top leagues theres going to be a fair number of them. Ndidi has 1 goal for example and hes miles more defensive than Fred.
Also since I've just seen it, the earliest pressing stats I can find are from 17/18 where Ander averaged 28.8, Lingard 26.5, Miki 25.2, Carrick 23.3, Sanchez 22.2 and Blind 21.5
Fred averages 23.9 this season
Are the people who think Fred is a great DM also the people who used to post about Lingard being great? And were they Miki, Sanchez and Blind fans? If not, why is pressing suddenly the be all and end all when we used to have players who were better at it?
Fred averages 23.9 this season
Are the people who think Fred is a great DM also the people who used to post about Lingard being great? And were they Miki, Sanchez and Blind fans? If not, why is pressing suddenly the be all and end all when we used to have players who were better at it?
But we'll still pretend turn overs and interceptions don't exist? It speaks volumes that you do a comparison between Fred, a predominantly defensive midfielder, and other midfielders and you don't mention such an important stat, but forcus on the one or two extra goals they'd scored.So if you removed 4 things instead of 1 which is pretty equal - tackling for goals, sure.
But nobody did that because it would be stupid to even suggest it. Fred is a bit more defensive than Cleverley and Anderson, just as those stats pointed out and that I commented on where they do. They are more offensive and had more end product. Other than that not much difference.
If you compared McTominay to Cleverley and Anderson he'd score more goals as well as doing more defensively. So would a lot of DMs. Thats the point.
In the premier league alone :
All the players who have played DM and scored more than 1 goal from the position. So if we include all of the top leagues theres going to be a fair number of them. Ndidi has 1 goal for example and hes miles more defensive than Fred.
That's exactly what you're doing. It's literally there in your post.
No, he's not 'a bit more defensive.' You're trying to make out it's a marginal difference here but it's not. Just look at the language you're using here, it's ridiculous. Then you give a disproportionate amount of weight to scoring one or two more goals, while downplaying other areas. You're desperate for the numbers to work in your favour here and they really aren't. You know this.
Neville went years without a goal and it wasn't a problem because he excelled in the areas he was supposed to excel in. A defensive midfielder getting one or two goals less than his counterparts is inconsequential, particularly when their defensive contributions are that much better.
Case in point. McTominay contributes more defensively than those aforementioned players, but he still does significantly less defensively than Fred. So far this season, Fred comes off favourably in the following categories: Touches, ball recoveries, chances created, completed passes, long pass accuracy, through balls, forward passes, tackles, duels won and interceptions. There are more. But your focus are on those areas that really aren't that important for a defensive midfielder because it puts him in a bad light. It's really quite callous. These same arguments were used against Herrera (a player I know you liked very much) and ironically you're now doing the same for Fred. Fred isn't on Anders level, but he's still an excellent player who is integral to the way we play.
What you're essentially saying: let's consider this defensive midfielder but we're going to ignore the most important areas of success for a defensive midfielder, and we're going to look at the areas all defensive midfielders perform poorly in, and use that as the measuring stick.
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have you ever considered that now that nearly everything good goes through Bruno and we are actually forcing the ball that way with much more high risk passes and playing more direct instead of playing the simple cleverly pass off to the man nearest to him and always building slowly and that’s distorting the numbers. I mentioned to that a few days ago in reply to one of your posts. Also our midfield plays a lot further apart than we used to. Our style is totally different.
@Ekeke Kudos for the comprehensive stat rundown that confirms what everyone using the eyeball test already knew about Fred. Takes more effort than cherry picking his high pass completion rate followed by a wall of text explaining how his passing game is not far off from Michael fecking Carrick.
Suprised Ando's face fit the frame for the photo.
Suprised Ando's face fit the frame for the photo.
This is complete and utter drivel. You think because they attempted more presses that they are better pressers? Honestly?
I could attempt to run the most marathons but that doesn't make me a good runner.
Attempts is all Fred is good at, other than running. His success rate isnt good either. So you would be as good a runner as he is presser
West Brom 1:1 Man Utd
Offers very little in games like this
Just so poor. Plays like a bottom half midfielder.
New tattoo?
Wish I could see the great midfielder others can.
What a wonderful exhibition of launching 30 yard passes to nobody.
Absolutely shocking ability on the ball. It's sickening how much leeway he's given because he runs around a lot.
Absolutely shocking ability on the ball. It's sickening how much leeway he's given because he runs around a lot.
Hopefully one for his new club. He's shite.
Passing % stats incoming.....
To be fair i dont blame fred one bit because it was entirely predictable he would be a bit useless against a team sat so deep. I blane the idiot that picked him
The most over rated player on RedCafe since I started posting here.
Wasnt a game where he and AWB won the ball much. Other than that it was normal Fred where he worked hard with average levels of ability in every area. Active, got on the ball and found more attacking players than himself and offered no penetration himself.
Decent squad player but brings nothing against hoofing sides like West Bromwich Albion.
Not a Fred game, when we have so much possession he doesn't offer a lot no matter what dudes charts and graphs show in the other thread.
Wow that's a statement considering how many post you've made. Your probably not far wrong if at all.
Beat me to it. Hes very useful when we are defending, but offers nothing in games like these when we have the ball most of the time.
Some utterly laughable passes from him today
He was awful, the Mcfred combination is having a slow and painful death. Both were nowhere near good enough today.
Is he though? Watch the defending by Fred on the counter Maitland Niles fecked up with a bad pass. Fred runs away from him, leaving him unmarked to challenge for a ball two of our other players were closer to. He sees the ball and nothing else. Same on the one Pereira dragged wide. Just let him run off him.
He's actually become overrated here if anything. He's the best actual CM we have but it's a poor bunch the others are 80 year old Matic, and technically substandard Mctominay. He's often good and especially useful in games where were the underdogs or basically need to scrap for control. But games where we are expected to dominate and control, you know, what should be every game for Manchester United, his flaws really stand out - an inconsistent technical game. Overhit passes, underhit passes, sloppyness and a lack of impact at both ends of the pitch.
Should have been the sole DM today, absolutely no need for a double pivot against West Brom.
Brutal today. Even the passes he completes are lacking pace or proper direction, and in these matches against low block teams being able to rotate the ball and move it around the pitch with pace and purpose is vital to creating chances.
I think you're not a fan right? Overall, I would say that's a fair assessment of his game today.
It's a criticism if you expect one of your two man defensive midfielders to dominate the centre of the park and create opportunities/be aggressively dominant as if we're coached as a Liverpool/City, whilst playing with a disjointed attack.
For me, it's fair game to expect more from him but at the same time, I'd lay more blame on our fundamental issues, namely the lack of coaching.
We need a Carrick-type midfielder to provide stability to the team when we need to push against the low block sides with a counter threat.
Fred isn't the answer if the question isn't 'how will we press an opponent who will dominate the ball in midfield'
Fred isn't the answer if the question isn't 'how will we press an opponent who will dominate the ball in midfield'
No, I think he's a good player just not a great one and not one of our best.
A player who doesnt have any area where he's outstanding other than with hardwork and being active all the time. And so when it comes to passes, tackles, etc. the accumulation is going to add up to some high numbers. But so are things like the amount of times a player dribbles past him, or the amount of times he has a loose touch or misplacing a routine pass. He's doing a bit better statistically in that regard recently so thats good.
Can't argue with that. I'd rate/like him because of those things you've highlighted. High volume of actions despite the inconsistency i.e the effective along with the ineffective/lack of quality is about as good as you can expect in a team coached like this, is my main my take away.
I've said this previously way back last year just after lock down that when Pogba returned, we should have had Fred at the base (the best of our options between McT and Matic). I still believe this and under a better coach, we should be getting similar (not the same) productivity and growth out of Fred ala Fernandinho/Fabinho.
Perhaps bit of a stretch but in any case that's simply not going to happen under Ole as there's no previous evidence to base that on.
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